Florida Looking to Push Back Against CDC

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, Gracie115 said:

 

Exactly.....but yet things have changed with the pandemic....we have vaccines...we didn't have them back then...but the CDC doesn't budge......and something tells me they won't for a VERY long time.

 

Booking cruises now that don't touch the states as far out as 2023........ not waiting for the CDC to get around to really looking at the whole picture......

My question.  Are you an epidemiologist?  Do you have access to all the data the CDC may have on actual transmission vectors for covid?  Do you base everything on news reports and some, probably very good, research articles, which may or may not be contradicted by other, probably very good, research articles?  I'm not an epidemiologist, just an old, broke down boat mechanic, but I've worked with the CDC/USPH in the cruise industry, and I respect their scientific approach, and won't second guess them until I get all the facts.  Just like I refused to jump in and blame Carnival for the Triumph fire, before all the facts were out there.  I try to be impartial, and if I know less than those in charge, I tend to keep my mouth shut.

 

And, while the US may be well on the way to high levels of vaccination, cruising is essentially international travel, and those other countries may not be as far along as we are, and the CDC is mandated to keep any further disease from entering the US.

Edited April 16, 2021 by chengkp75

[Mosaic]

"In general, if someone is uncomfortable with cruising on a cruise line that does meet their standards, then don't cruise on them.'  Its called free will; rather than the government will control every facet of one's life."

 

Ok, the government does not "control every facet of one's life"  And you are correct, you have the right not to go on a ship that, at this time, correctly requires Vaccines....

 

"No Vaccinations, No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" that is freedom of choice by the owners of the business.

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, Gracie115 said:

but yet things have changed with the pandemic....we have vaccines...we didn't have them back then...but the CDC doesn't budge

 

Even with the vaccines, our country appears to be starting to encounter a "vaccine wall".  If this does become a reality and continues for an indefinite period of time, a return to the normality pre-mid March, 2020 is not going to happen any time soon.  

 

The path out of this pandemic, as reputable medical/scientific persons have said,  and as we Ohioans hear daily from our Governor, is the vaccine.  

 

I respect the rights of those who don't want to be vaccinated for legitimate reasons.  

 

I suspect there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, that for their own "agenda reasons", are refusing to take the vaccine.  That is their right.  But, exercising that "right" infringes on the personal liberty of those of us who are vaccinated because it prevents the goal of reasonable herd immunity to be achieved. 

 

Using Ohio as an example:  Governor DeWine has stated that if our Covid case load gets to 50/100,000 people for a two weeks, our State's public health orders will be lifted.  (My reaction:  I AM FREE!  I AM FREE!  I don't need to wear my mask.  Thank God I AM FREE.)  When Governor DeWine made that announcement, my State was at 149/100,000 and the count was declining.  Today, it is 200/100,000.  It appears to me that I am going to be in bondage to my mask for quite some time.  

 

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, Gracie115 said:

but yet things have changed with the pandemic....we have vaccines...we didn't have them back then...but the CDC doesn't budge

 

Even with the vaccines, our country appears to be starting to encounter a "vaccine wall".  If this does become a reality and continues for an indefinite period of time, a return to the normality pre-mid March, 2020 is not going to happen any time soon.  

 

The path out of this pandemic, as reputable medical/scientific persons have said,  and as we Ohioans hear daily from our Governor, is the vaccine.  

 

I respect the rights of those who don't want to be vaccinated for legitimate reasons.  

 

I suspect there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, that for their own "agenda reasons", are refusing to take the vaccine.  That is their right.  But, exercising that "right" infringes on the personal liberty of those of us who are vaccinated because it prevents the goal of reasonable herd immunity to be achieved. 

 

Using Ohio as an example:  Governor DeWine has stated that if our Covid case load gets to 50/100,000 people for a two weeks, our State's public health orders will be lifted.  (My reaction:  I AM FREE!  I AM FREE!  I don't need to wear my mask.  Thank God I AM FREE.)  When Governor DeWine made that announcement, my State was at 149/100,000 and the count was declining.  Today, it is 200/100,000.  It appears to me that I am going to be in bondage to my mask for quite some time.  

 

[Gracie115]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

My question.  Are you an epidemiologist?  Do you have access to all the data the CDC may have on actual transmission vectors for covid?  Do you base everything on news reports and some, probably very good, research articles, which may or may not be contradicted by other, probably very good, research articles?  I'm not an epidemiologist, just an old, broke down boat mechanic, but I've worked with the CDC/USPH in the cruise industry, and I respect their scientific approach, and won't second guess them until I get all the facts.  Just like I refused to jump in and blame Carnival for the Triumph fire, before all the facts were out there.  I try to be impartial, and if I know less than those in charge, I tend to keep my mouth shut.

 

And, while the US may be well on the way to high levels of vaccination, cruising is essentially international travel, and those other countries may not be as far along as we are, and the CDC is mandated to keep any further disease from entering the US.

 

Am I an epidemiologist? No, but my husband is a microbiologist who has worked with the Aids & SARS epidemic so I listen to what he says.

 

You have a choice.... at least in some places.... to cruise or not with other vaccinated passengers and staff.... that works for me

[harkinmr]

13 hours ago, FlaMariner said:

Editorial in the WSJ today regarding why our ships are being held hostage and what's being done to free them:

 

Comment: 

 

http://ereader.wsj.net/eeLayout/wallstreetjournal/1.0.a/images/webapp/banner.png

Friday, April 16, 2021

 

Cruise Ships in the CDC Dock  If ever there was a reason to celebrate federalism, look to the continued incarceration of the cruise industry. Even living in California lockdown would be preferable to living under the Covid tyranny of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Most businesses are subject to state laws. Not so the cruise business, one of the few industries subject to near-total federal control and the only one that has remained in complete lockdown since March 2020. Want to imagine life if the public-health oligarchy had free rein? This is your case study. Lockdown enthusiasts portray cruises as unnecessary luxuries, the only losers of the moratorium on foreign cruise-line operators. But many smaller operators are U.S.owned and -flagged. And the lockdown is wreaking havoc on American states, businesses and workers. Millions of cruise passengers annually come ashore to shop, eat and stay in hotels. Farmers supply food; truckers deliver goods; thousands of Americans work directly on the ships or in cruise ports. In a lawsuit against the CDC last week, the state of Florida noted that direct expenditures by the industry in 2019 generated "nearly 159,000 total jobs paying $8.1 billion in income" in the Sunshine State. CDC Director Rochelle Walensky continues to hold these jobs hostage to her "feeling of impending doom." Cruise ships operate in national and international waters, and the CDC claims authority to control communicable diseases from foreign countries. The CDC issued its first "No Sail Order" on March 14, 2020, followed by extensions. Under intense pressure by the Trump administration, the agency reluctantly segued in October to a vague "Conditional Sailing Order," which purported to lay out a reopening. It was a ruse, another way to keep the industry docked. The order laid out four phases companies would need to complete to operate. But the CDC simply refused to issue guidance, and even by March not a single cruise line had graduated phase 1. Asked by Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski at a March 18 hearing to give an "indicator" of a "timeline" for phase 2, Dr. Walensky responded: "I can't." It's not as if the cruise industry lacks a plan. Starting in 2020, Federal Maritime Commissioner Robert Sola began working intensely to get ports, lines and local officials together on port-by-port plans for reopening. Cruise liners created a Healthy Sail Panel, chaired by former Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt and former Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Scott Gottlieb, and issued best practices for testing, sanitation, ventilation and procedures in case of positive cases. The CDC has been unmoved. This month it finally issued "technical instructions," a series of rules so complex as to be unmanageable, and all designed to ensure that taking or working on a cruise will be as enjoyable as entering a labor camp. Daily symptom checks, endless testing, no crew bars or gyms, modified meal service, rules for getting on the boat, rules for getting off, mask requirements,   The entire industry is shut down in the U.S., while Europe and Asia are sailing again.      rules against shaking "dirty laundry." All of this laid out in a color-coded regime that ranks ships green, orange, yellow or red on a moving basis, and most of it requiring CDC signoff?down to a threat that it "may oversee the onboard collection of crew specimens." The CDC did at least revoke its rule forbidding the use of gangways more than once every 12 hours, after being reminded that more than a million Americans are daily boarding airplanes on jetways with nary a Covid hot spot in consequence. To add insult to injury, the CDC also reiterated its recommendation that "all people avoid travel on cruise ships, including river cruises, worldwide." It apparently irks the CDC autocrats that they can't rule globally. Because while CDC officials still have nightmares over the botched Diamond Princess cruise saga, the rest of the world has moved on. European and Asian cruises have reopened with great success. The Cruise Lines International Association says more than 400,000 passengers have traveled since last summer, with few Covid cases. Cruise lines are perfectly capable of operating with protocols. The Biden team has made no effort to intercede, as it sees the benefit of using the continued lockdown as proof we are still in a "crisis" (and therefore in need of more spending). White House press secretary Jen Psaki reminded the nation we should remain grateful the president will allow us a small, July 4 barbecue, which "is quite different from cruises, of course." But the pushback is finally coming. Florida has sued, and Alaska is threatening to do so. Congressional Republicans recently sent a letter to the White House demanding answers, and Sens. Marco Rubio (R., Fla.) Rick Scott (R., Fla.) and Dan Sullivan (R., Alaska) this week introduced legislation to force a reopening. Even operators are fed up. Carnival Cruise Line last week threatened to move its ships from U.S. home ports. The Covid crisis created many new power players, but none so frightening as the public health official. The cruise sector is evidence of the urgent need for a discussion about how best to keep that megalomaniacal bureaucracy in check. Write to kim@wsj.com. POTOMAC WATCH By Kimberley A. Strassel

 

This is not an editorial. It is an opinion piece and nothing more than a politically motivated rant. It does nothing towards helping cruising move towards a restart.  

[rkacruiser]

20 hours ago, harkinmr said:

It is an opinion piece and nothing more than a politically motivated rant.

 

I read it as an editorial written in the terms of an opinion piece.  A politically motivated rant?  No, I don't agree with that view.  

 

The 45th President of the United States did not listen to his friend, the Chairman of Carnival Corporation, many months ago when help was requested for the cruise industry,  

[harkinmr]

2 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I read it as an editorial written in the terms of an opinion piece.  A politically motivated rant?  No, I don't agree with that view.  

 

The 45th President of the United States did not listen to his friend, the Chairman of Carnival Corporation, many months ago when help was requested for the cruise industry,  

An "editorial" is the written opinion of the editor or publisher of a particular newspaper or other publication.  The author of the piece you cite is not, to my knowledge, an editor for the Wall Street Journal.  And you are right.  The prior administration did nothing to move cruising forward.  Which is why this opinion piece is so very political; where was the author when the prior administration shut down the cruise industry for 11 months?

[rkacruiser]

7 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Which is why this opinion piece is so very political; where was the author when the prior administration shut down the cruise industry for 11 months?

 

The question of why the CDC seems to be taking the position that they have regarding the cruise industry has been debated ad nauseam on CC.  Lots of theories, and I have included mine as well.  

 

Political?  No, I remain in disagreement.  It is an economic fact that there are many Americans, as well as our friends in Canada, who have been employed full time or part time to help facilitate cruise sailings from ports in Canada and the United States.  Have those good people found other jobs?  I surely hope they have.  

 

I read the piece as a report on the impact that the cruise embargo has had on Joe Jones and Mary Smith who were employees of a port agent who has no business as well as Maria Sanchez who was a housekeeper at a hotel in Miami whose rooms are no longer occupied by pre-cruise/post-cruise guests.  

[harkinmr]

5 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

The question of why the CDC seems to be taking the position that they have regarding the cruise industry has been debated ad nauseam on CC.  Lots of theories, and I have included mine as well.  

 

Political?  No, I remain in disagreement.  It is an economic fact that there are many Americans, as well as our friends in Canada, who have been employed full time or part time to help facilitate cruise sailings from ports in Canada and the United States.  Have those good people found other jobs?  I surely hope they have.  

 

I read the piece as a report on the impact that the cruise embargo has had on Joe Jones and Mary Smith who were employees of a port agent who has no business as well as Maria Sanchez who was a housekeeper at a hotel in Miami whose rooms are no longer occupied by pre-cruise/post-cruise guests.  

The economic impacts of the cruise pause have been felt since last March.  I find it extraordinarily hypocritical that people all of a sudden "care" and are so vocal about it.  Particularly the author of this piece.  That is all I have to say on the subject.

[rkacruiser]

9 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The economic impacts of the cruise pause have been felt since last March.  I find it extraordinarily hypocritical that people all of a sudden "care" and are so vocal about it.  Particularly the author of this piece.  That is all I have to say on the subject.

 

Thanks for your response.  I understand.  

[nocl]

4 hours ago, harkinmr said:

The economic impacts of the cruise pause have been felt since last March.  I find it extraordinarily hypocritical that people all of a sudden "care" and are so vocal about it.  Particularly the author of this piece.  That is all I have to say on the subject.

Well there does seem to be a PR campaign by the cruise lines with their write a letter to your congressman plea.  Along with their very public meetings with the cruise ports and the Governor of Florida.  Pretty easy for a trade organization to get an editorial or an opinion piece placed into a newspaper.

[ontheweb]

6 hours ago, nocl said:

Well there does seem to be a PR campaign by the cruise lines with their write a letter to your congressman plea.  Along with their very public meetings with the cruise ports and the Governor of Florida.  Pretty easy for a trade organization to get an editorial or an opinion piece placed into a newspaper.

And it is much harder work to actually make the changes necessary to have cruises start again safely.

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And it is much harder work to actually make the changes necessary to have cruises start again safely.

More importantly, it costs more.

[harkinmr]

7 hours ago, nocl said:

Well there does seem to be a PR campaign by the cruise lines with their write a letter to your congressman plea.  Along with their very public meetings with the cruise ports and the Governor of Florida.  Pretty easy for a trade organization to get an editorial or an opinion piece placed into a newspaper.

Yes, especially when they have the ear of someone like the author, Kimberley Strassel, a conservative commentator and supporter of the last administration.  I think she, as the author, is being quite hypocritical under the circumstances. 

[MTAK]

15 hours ago, harkinmr said:

The economic impacts of the cruise pause have been felt since last March.  I find it extraordinarily hypocritical that people all of a sudden "care" and are so vocal about it.  Particularly the author of this piece.  That is all I have to say on the subject.

Maybe because we have vaccines now?  I don't know why that would be considered hypocritical.  Things are different now.

[harkinmr]

Just now, MTAK said:

Maybe because we have vaccines now?  I don't know why that would be considered hypocritical.  Things are different now.

Yes.  But we are not at the point where we can claim victory on vaccine distribution.  And vaccines aren't the only element in this discussion.  The hypocrisy is that the economic impact has not changed in the last 13 months.  The blame game has.  

[MTAK]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

Yes.  But we are not at the point where we can claim victory on vaccine distribution.  And vaccines aren't the only element in this discussion.  The hypocrisy is that the economic impact has not changed in the last 13 months.  The blame game has.  

The fact the economic impact hasn't changed in the last 13 months is exactly the point, or the problem in some people's opinion, despite the success of vaccines. The folks in charge now are the one's responsible for making these decisions based on current circumstances.  There is no hypocrisy in questioning that.

[harkinmr]

35 minutes ago, MTAK said:

The fact the economic impact hasn't changed in the last 13 months is exactly the point, or the problem in some people's opinion, despite the success of vaccines. The folks in charge now are the one's responsible for making these decisions based on current circumstances.  There is no hypocrisy in questioning that.

And they are, and will, when circumstances warrant.  It's also important to note that only ONE major cruise line has committed to mandatory vaccines for cruising (NCL).  One major cruise group (CCL) has said they will not mandate vaccines at all.  The CDC is not going to mandate it, because they cannot legally do so under the EUA.  The cruise lines have come out and said nothing except that the CSO is too hard to comply with.  Get rid of it.  That is not going to happen.  The Governor of Florida cries (all of a sudden) about economic impact from no cruising from Florida ports, but then turns around and threatens that he will not allow cruise lines to mandate vaccines.  That is a perfect example of hypocrisy.  

Edited April 18, 2021 by harkinmr

[idiebabe]

MSC and some other Lines have proven that Cruising can be done safely and have been doing so since last August.  They started Cruising before the Vaccine and have been successful. 

 

Now there is a Vaccine and whether the Cruise Line requires it or not many who Board will have been Vaccinated and others will already have had Covid and have Antibodies.  If the Protocols are put in place and enforced as they are on MSC, there is no reason we can't begin Sailing.  Again, MSC has shown that it can be done!

 

 It's time to get the Cruise Lines operating again out of U.S. Ports (which is just not Florida).  It's also NY, Boston, Baltimore, Norfolk,  Galveston, Mobile, New Orleans, California, SC and Seattle.   If someone is not comfortable going at this time, that's their choice!

 

Forgot to mention:  New Jersey!

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by idiebabe

[KroozNut]

43 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The Governor of Florida cries (all of a sudden) about economic impact from no cruising from Florida ports, but then turns around and threatens that he will not allow cruise lines to mandate vaccines.  That is a perfect example of hypocrisy.  

Not at all... But it is the right approach.

[MTAK]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

And they are, and will, when circumstances warrant.  It's also important to note that only ONE major cruise line has committed to mandatory vaccines for cruising (NCL).  One major cruise group (CCL) has said they will not mandate vaccines at all.  The CDC is not going to mandate it, because they cannot legally do so under the EUA.  The cruise lines have come out and said nothing except that the CSO is too hard to comply with.  Get rid of it.  That is not going to happen.  The Governor of Florida cries (all of a sudden) about economic impact from no cruising from Florida ports, but then turns around and threatens that he will not allow cruise lines to mandate vaccines.  That is a perfect example of hypocrisy.  

NCL is proposing 100% vaccinated sailings.  What other circumstances does the CDC need in order to re-evaluate policy to allow NCL to sail?

 

I stand by my original comment. I do not believe it is hypocritical, political, or unreasonable for NCL, Florida, or anyone else for that matter to question why the CDC continues to rely on policy established 6 months ago before any vaccine was even approved, much less distributed. I don't think anyone anticipated the prospect of having 100% vaccinated sailings at that time.

 

It sounds as if all this flap is at least resulting in some discussions between the parties involved.  Let's hope the outcome is some form of reasonable path forward.

[harkinmr]

10 minutes ago, MTAK said:

NCL is proposing 100% vaccinated sailings.  What other circumstances does the CDC need in order to re-evaluate policy to allow NCL to sail?

 

I stand by my original comment. I do not believe it is hypocritical, political, or unreasonable for NCL, Florida, or anyone else for that matter to question why the CDC continues to rely on policy established 6 months ago before any vaccine was even approved, much less distributed. I don't think anyone anticipated the prospect of having 100% vaccinated sailings at that time.

 

It sounds as if all this flap is at least resulting in some discussions between the parties involved.  Let's hope the outcome is some form of reasonable path forward.

NCL has proposed 100% vaccinations plus use of their "SailSafe" protocols.  They have also asked that the CSO be dropped in its entirety.  No test cruises, no reporting, and no oversight.  Reporting and oversight are going to to be a components at least at the beginning.  The CDC is not likely to give NCL a waiver, while continuing to restrict the other US lines.  Can you imagine the uproar then.

 

Discussions have already started between the parties as of last Monday.  A working group of all the parties has been formed and it will get worked out.

Edited April 18, 2021 by harkinmr

[Kamfish642]

This string only highlights what is wrong with this country.  Instead of talking to each other, we merely talk at each other.

[Crazy For Cats]

If other countries require a covid vaccination to enter and they are on an itinerary doesn’t any decision by the CDC become mute?  Then proof of vaccination becomes required much like any other immunization requirements to board ship.