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No more cruises with NCL. Mandatory Vaccines?


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35 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

This is probably because the CDC are aware of the same information as Pfizer, Moderna, Astrazeneca, UK Government Scientists, vaccine producers, various other scientists around the world and anyone else that has taken the time to read the research, that 100% vaccinated cruises are a PR stunt, offers a false sense of security and provides another opportunity for variants to spread.

 

Latest information from some of the vaccine manufacturers is:

 

The present crop of vaccines target the spike protein however your immune system is never exposed to the virus this becomes a problem later.

 

When exposed to covid-19 after vaccination your immune system recognises the spike protein, it goes into action reducing the risk of death, hospitalisation and serious illness in most, your immune system also teaches itself about SARS COV 2.

 

The probability is in favour of you having an effective immune response to other covid-19 variants this is based upon decades of research into yellow fever and other RNA viruses which showed that mutations on the outside receptors made no difference to the effectiveness of your immune system once exposed to a live virus.

 

If you have been vaccinated but never come into contact with the spike protein you are vaccinated against this is where the problems start. 

 

If you are exposed to covid-19 variant where the spike has mutated enough your immune system is not primed to deal with the variant infection and so you are starting at square 1 with no immunity this will result in deaths, hospitalisations and illness. The people that survive should have immunity as your body now sees the whole virus not just the spike

 

The answer is booster shots to teach your immune system about the next variant, if you infected with either the original or the next variant this means your immune system will teach itself about SARS COV 2. This cycle goes on with booster shots for the next variant and so on and so on, It's an arms race until your infected with either a version of covid you are vaccinated against or you catch the variant your not vaccinated against and your back at square 1.

 

RNA viruses naturally mutate but they can be pressured to mutate by vaccines this becomes exacerbated when the vaccines are only targeting the spike protein which will mutate rapidly to avoid the vaccines, the probability is the virus will out run vaccine technology and the vaccine manufacturers will always be playing catch up. Eventually there will be an escape variant that is vaccine resistant.

 

This is why a 100% vaccinated cruise at the moment is a fallacy because if everyone is vaccinated against lets say covid A and someone gets on the ship with covid B only those that have had actual exposure to covid A will have any sort of immunity and the rest are no different to unvaccinated people and the new variant can spread.

 

Testing is the only real answer until such time as either a vaccine is created which sees the whole virus similar to yellow fever vaccine or enough people have been exposed to the disease for herd immunity. Research is showing that herd immunity will take a long time to achieve with the current crop of vaccines as the virus only needs to alter it's spike protein to be able to infect a person that has not already been exposed. There is research into vaccines that mimic the whole virus however covid-19 is considered too dangerous to make a live attenuated vaccine.

 

A re-think by Governments and social views is needed to actually combat this disease and a lot more money put into a long term vaccine solution.

 

Using vaccines that contribute to creating variants is not a long term solution but if i was a cynic I could say it's a good money maker

 

A quote from the founder of Moderna

"Vaccines were never on our radar as they do not make good business sense"

 

 

From an article in Feb by John Hopkins.  The only vaccine mentioned is AZ, and still kept the illness to mild or moderate symptoms.  Having the virus before offered no greater protection.  The majority of people in the world believe to best way to get rid of the virus is mass vaccinations.-

 

 

The variant known as B.1.351, which was identified in South Africa, is getting a closer look from researchers, whose early data show that the COVID-19 vaccine from Oxford-AstraZeneca provided “minimal” protection from that version of the coronavirus. Those who became sick from the B.1.351 coronavirus variant after receiving the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine experienced mild or moderate illness.

The B.1.351 variant has not been shown to cause more severe illness than earlier versions. But there is a chance that it could give people who survived the original coronavirus another round of mild or moderate COVID-19.

Researchers studying placebo (non-vaccine) recipients in the South African COVID-19 vaccine trial by Novavax compared subgroups of participants who did or did not have antibodies indicating prior COVID-19. Those who did have the antibodies most likely were infected with older variants of SARS-CoV-2. They found that having recovered from COVID-19 did not protect against being sickened again at a time when the B.1.351 variant was spreading there.

 

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/a-new-strain-of-coronavirus-what-you-should-know

Edited by KennyFla
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51 minutes ago, D C said:

As it should be.

An "outbreak" on a fully vaccinated cruise simply won't happen.   There may be a mild case or two, but that's it.

 

How do you know that with such certainty? I'm not trying to be rude, but I was under the impression that the vaccine is still under trial for several more years. Considering how quickly the virus is mutating, coupled with the uncertainty of how vaccines will respond to all mutations, I don't believe we can make such sweeping claims just yet.

 

Covid is fluid. We are learning more each day. It seems that the new variants (which may or may not be supported by the vaccine) are less deadly but more contagious and anything 'more contagious' is going to be challenging to contain in a cruise ships environment.

 

I do acknowledge that it is unlikely to have severe cases onboard, but the CDC does not disseminate between covid positive and covid ill. 

 

Edited to also acknowledge that many cruise ships have been sailing without vaccination, which is why I'm not convinced that vaccination alone is the answer. I do agree that initial sailings with all vaccinated people have a better chance, but my point was that we need to be cautious using definitive language since we really don't know what is going to happen until more trials are conducted. 

Edited by BermudaBound2014
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So far, the vaccines are reporting some effectiveness against some of the variants (which are becoming too numerous to even track).  Not so much the "natural immunity" at least in this case.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-city-in-brazils-amazon-rain-forest-is-a-stark-warning-about-covid-to-the-rest-of-the-world/

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1 minute ago, KennyFla said:

 

You just argued that vaccines work.  The vast majority of people exposed to the virus after being vaccinated will not even know they have it.  And it is certainly not established that vaccinated people can transfer the virus.  And if everyone on board is vaccinated, even IF the virus gets on board and IF it is transferred, everyone is vaccinated and won't even know it.

If we live by your thinking, we should all live in fear of getting measles, the mumps, polio, small pox, TB and all the other things we have been vaccinated against.

KennyFla, you hit it on the head.  This is a tread that is riddled with contradictions, false claims, misrepresenting science facts.  And when you challenge them, they want to engage you in verbal battle for hours on end.  It is not really a forum for lively discussion.  It is a place for a very few folk that have WAY to much time on their hand to attempt to show how smart they perceive themselves to be.  We can all live in fear, or not.  I nor any of the many family and friend I love dearly are in anyway possible fearful of a vaccine.  None of us are fearful to get on a cruise ship with folks that have had a vaccine.  What we are fearful of are folks that simply want to have verbal debates, when they are not authorities, doctors or scientists.  Where they are contradicting the doctors that serve us and treated us. 

 

Folks with no medical or Science education with a college or university that is actually accredited. Those folks giving advice is what I am most fearful of. Just saying.

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17 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

 

You just argued that vaccines work.  The vast majority of people exposed to the virus after being vaccinated will not even know they have it.  And it is certainly not established that vaccinated people can transfer the virus.  And if everyone on board is vaccinated, even IF the virus gets on board and IF it is transferred, everyone is vaccinated and won't even know it.

If we live by your thinking, we should all live in fear of getting measles, the mumps, polio, small pox, TB and all the other things we have been vaccinated against.

 

I agree with you, but I also agree that there will be positives ---and that the CDC will shut down cruising because there are positives. 

 

People will be confined to their cabins, the virus will spread(even if only in the form of positive test results). It doesn't matter if the symptoms are minor or nonexistent.

 

The CDC is calling all the shots here - and they've decided that Covid is DANGEROUS/DEADLY/hopeless and without end (thus the fear of the endless variants)

 

For over a year, the belief in asymptomatic spread is the tie that binds us. They're not letting go of that.

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11 minutes ago, ukbecky said:

 

I agree with you, but I also agree that there will be positives ---and that the CDC will shut down cruising because there are positives. 

 

People will be confined to their cabins, the virus will spread(even if only in the form of positive test results). It doesn't matter if the symptoms are minor or nonexistent.

 

The CDC is calling all the shots here - and they've decided that Covid is DANGEROUS/DEADLY/hopeless and without end (thus the fear of the endless variants)

 

For over a year, the belief in asymptomatic spread is the tie that binds us. They're not letting go of that.

 

Deep breath.

Really, the chance of positives on board of a fully vaccinated cruise are really low.  Not impossible, but really low.  If you test everyone before they board, should be zero.

 

The CDC has said fully vaccinated people no longer need to be tested or quarantine:

Fully vaccinated people can resume domestic travel and do not need to get tested before or after travel or self-quarantine after travel. Fully vaccinated people do not need to get tested before leaving the United States (unless required by the destination) or self-quarantine after arriving back in the United States.Apr 2, 2021

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4 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

 

Deep breath.

Really, the chance of positives on board of a fully vaccinated cruise are really low.  Not impossible, but really low.  If you test everyone before they board, should be zero.

 

The CDC has said fully vaccinated people no longer need to be tested or quarantine:

Fully vaccinated people can resume domestic travel and do not need to get tested before or after travel or self-quarantine after travel. Fully vaccinated people do not need to get tested before leaving the United States (unless required by the destination) or self-quarantine after arriving back in the United States.Apr 2, 2021

 

I'm not attacking you personally, I'm trying to engage in a discussion to further my understanding.

 

I believe what you have quoted above from the CDC is only partially true. From the CDC website here is the full language:

 

"Fully vaccinated people can travel within the United States and do not need COVID-19 testing or post-travel self-quarantine as long as they continue to take COVID-19 precautions while traveling – wearing a mask, avoiding crowds, socially distancing, and washing hands frequently."

 

So this leaves me begging the question, if covid vaccines work, why the need to continue the exact same mitigation that non-vaccinated

people are encouraged to participate in?

 

In relation to the bullets you quoted, the you left out the bottom two and I do think they are relevant:

 

  • Fully vaccinated people can travel internationally without getting a COVID-19 test before travel unless it is required by the international destination.
  • Fully vaccinated people do not need to self-quarantine after returning to the United States, unless required by a state or local jurisdiction.
  • Fully vaccinated people must still have a negative COVID-19 test result before they board a flight to the United States and get a COVID-19 test 3 to 5 days after returning from international travel.
  • Fully vaccinated people should continue to take COVID-19 precautions while traveling internationally.

CDC Issues Updated Guidance on Travel for Fully Vaccinated People | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC

 

Based on this, my understanding is that the CDC is still unsure about the overall effectiveness of the vaccine. I don't blame them for being cautious, the vaccine is still in trial stages. We just don't know what we don't know, and we won't know the full scope of the vaccine for many years. 

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34 minutes ago, Sthrngary said:

KennyFla, you hit it on the head.  This is a tread that is riddled with contradictions, false claims, misrepresenting science facts.  And when you challenge them, they want to engage you in verbal battle for hours on end.  It is not really a forum for lively discussion.  It is a place for a very few folk that have WAY to much time on their hand to attempt to show how smart they perceive themselves to be.  We can all live in fear, or not.  I nor any of the many family and friend I love dearly are in anyway possible fearful of a vaccine.  None of us are fearful to get on a cruise ship with folks that have had a vaccine.  What we are fearful of are folks that simply want to have verbal debates, when they are not authorities, doctors or scientists.  Where they are contradicting the doctors that serve us and treated us. 

 

Folks with no medical or Science education with a college or university that is actually accredited. Those folks giving advice is what I am most fearful of. Just saying.

With no offense against anyone on this site, there are no real "experts" here, including yours truly. This is nothing more than tilting at windmills. I have confidence that none of the cruise lines nor the CDC are going to change their minds because a bunch of us on Cruise Critic had an argument. In fact, I think the reason people bluster so much about this subject is that, when it comes right down to it, we all KNOW we aren't going to make these decisions. This is all going to be decided by the cruise industry and the government. It isn't going to be because someone made a "really good argument" on a cruise website.

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56 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

 

From an article in Feb by John Hopkins.  The only vaccine mentioned is AZ, and still kept the illness to mild or moderate symptoms.  Having the virus before offered no greater protection.  The majority of people in the world believe to best way to get rid of the virus is mass vaccinations.-

 

 

The variant known as B.1.351, which was identified in South Africa, is getting a closer look from researchers, whose early data show that the COVID-19 vaccine from Oxford-AstraZeneca provided “minimal” protection from that version of the coronavirus. Those who became sick from the B.1.351 coronavirus variant after receiving the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine experienced mild or moderate illness.

The B.1.351 variant has not been shown to cause more severe illness than earlier versions. But there is a chance that it could give people who survived the original coronavirus another round of mild or moderate COVID-19.

Researchers studying placebo (non-vaccine) recipients in the South African COVID-19 vaccine trial by Novavax compared subgroups of participants who did or did not have antibodies indicating prior COVID-19. Those who did have the antibodies most likely were infected with older variants of SARS-CoV-2. They found that having recovered from COVID-19 did not protect against being sickened again at a time when the B.1.351 variant was spreading there.

 

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/a-new-strain-of-coronavirus-what-you-should-know

 

Thinking about it logically if you have mild/moderate symptoms from a vaccine that does not contain the virus the only thing it could be is an immunological response

 

This does not really answer the question as to whether they were re infected or a similar immunological response as you would have to the vaccine not containing a virus.

 

Here's some light reading from scientists who see things differently all are pro vaccines they just see it differently, in the UK we have been looking at booster shots against variants for a while.

 

https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(21)00075-8/fulltext

https://www.labiotech.eu/trends-news/emergex-covid-19-vaccine/

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2 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

With no offense against anyone on this site, there are no real "experts" here, including yours truly. This is nothing more than tilting at windmills. I have confidence that none of the cruise lines nor the CDC are going to change their minds because a bunch of us on Cruise Critic had an argument. In fact, I think the reason people bluster so much about this subject is that, when it comes right down to it, we all KNOW we aren't going to make these decisions. This is all going to be decided

by the cruise industry and the government. It isn't going to be because someone made a "really good argument" on a cruise website.

 

I hope we aren't all "just arguing" here. I know that I make counter points often, but I do so in an attempt to gather deeper understanding. I understand that the CDC isn't going to make a move based on CC discussions, but that doesn't mean that CC discussions can't be rich and thought provoking. There are several posters here that make great points on both sides of the issue and I enjoy reading all perspectives. 

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Just now, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I hope we aren't all "just arguing" here. I know that I make counter points often, but I do so in an attempt to gather deeper understanding. I understand that the CDC isn't going to make a move based on CC discussions, but that doesn't mean that CC discussions can't be rich and thought provoking. There are several posters here that make great points on both sides of the issue and I enjoy reading all perspectives. 

There are people like you who want to gather a deeper understanding, and then there are all the people who just want to argue with others for the sake of arguing, or to put others down, or to showcase their superior knowledge of a subject, or to engage in pointless "my data beats your data" back-and-forths.

That's what I think is ultimately a waste of time. I just want to go on vacation again, and I don't see arguments online changing that one bit.

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1 minute ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I'm not attacking you personally, I'm trying to engage in a discussion to further my understanding.

 

I believe what you have quoted above from the CDC is only partially true. From the CDC website here is the full language:

 

"Fully vaccinated people can travel within the United States and do not need COVID-19 testing or post-travel self-quarantine as long as they continue to take COVID-19 precautions while traveling – wearing a mask, avoiding crowds, socially distancing, and washing hands frequently."

 

So this leaves me begging the question, if covid vaccines work, why the need to continue the exact same mitigation that non-vaccinated

people are encouraged to participate in?

 

In relation to the bullets you quoted, the you left out the bottom two and I do think they are relevant:

 

  • Fully vaccinated people can travel internationally without getting a COVID-19 test before travel unless it is required by the international destination.
  • Fully vaccinated people do not need to self-quarantine after returning to the United States, unless required by a state or local jurisdiction.
  • Fully vaccinated people must still have a negative COVID-19 test result before they board a flight to the United States and get a COVID-19 test 3 to 5 days after returning from international travel.
  • Fully vaccinated people should continue to take COVID-19 precautions while traveling internationally.

CDC Issues Updated Guidance on Travel for Fully Vaccinated People | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC

 

Based on this, my understanding is that the CDC is still unsure about the overall effectiveness of the vaccine. I don't blame them for being cautious, the vaccine is still in trial stages. We just don't know what we don't know, and we won't know the full scope of the vaccine for many years. 

 

I agree with your question on why do we need to keep the mitigation after vaccination, maybe extra caution?  And if you do not need to quarantine, why do you need to be tested before returning to the US?

I believe we are in the early stages of the rules for fully vaccinated and those rules will evolve.  The only unknown, I think, right now is how likely is a fully vaccinated person able to transfer the disease.  Hopefully not likely, and that will take care of all these issues.

 

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11 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

Thinking about it logically if you have mild/moderate symptoms from a vaccine that does not contain the virus the only thing it could be is an immunological response

 

This does not really answer the question as to whether they were re infected or a similar immunological response as you would have to the vaccine not containing a virus.

 

Here's some light reading from scientists who see things differently all are pro vaccines they just see it differently, in the UK we have been looking at booster shots against variants for a while.

 

https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(21)00075-8/fulltext

https://www.labiotech.eu/trends-news/emergex-covid-19-vaccine/

I read more about the Israel study, the 8 cases of infection of the South Africa variant happened 7-13 days after the second shot.  Nothin after 14 days, which is considered fully effective.  Maybe for that variant you need the whole effectiveness.

 

“Our results show reduced effectiveness against the [South African] variant only in a short window of time (7-13 days post-second dose) since all the breakthrough cases we saw were in this time frame,” Adi Stern, a professor at Tel Aviv University and one of the co-authors, said in an email. “However, once again the caveat is that our sample size is small and this requires further research

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3 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

I read more about the Israel study, the 8 cases of infection of the South Africa variant happened 7-13 days after the second shot.  Nothin after 14 days, which is considered fully effective.  Maybe for that variant you need the whole effectiveness.

 

“Our results show reduced effectiveness against the [South African] variant only in a short window of time (7-13 days post-second dose) since all the breakthrough cases we saw were in this time frame,” Adi Stern, a professor at Tel Aviv University and one of the co-authors, said in an email. “However, once again the caveat is that our sample size is small and this requires further research

 

Quite possible the experts seem to be announcing new information almost on a daily basis

 

Interesting to read about using mRNA technology to create a vaccine that will target more of the viruses code to provide protection against broader range of variants

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34 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

 

Ok last round.  I don't believe the testing is necessary, but if that extra step helps ensure the first cruises out of the US are successful, I'm all for it.

 

All your voluminous posting comes down to this:

You say that there is no less chance of a catastrophic outbreak of the virus on a fully vaccinated cruise than on one that is not fully vaccinated.

 

I could not disagree more.  I believe the vaccine is effective, i believe the transfer of the virus from a vaccinated person is not effective, and I believe that soon we we all be dancing terribly on our favorite cruise ship's dance floor.

 

I may even go a step further. I believe it is possible that mandatory testing onboard may actually be detrimental.  If travelers (whether vaccinated or not) test positive, then all bets are off according to the CDC guidelines. I believe they use the word 'threshold' to determine the number before everyone is quarantined to their cabins while the cruise is returned to port, but that could be one, five, ten, or 200 (I haven't seen the threshold number identified).  This is why I suspect cruising will not be resuming in the USA anytime soon. Herd immunity is likely the only sure way out of this mess. All other scenarios are flawed. Even fully vaccinated ships may have unvaccinated passengers given how many fake vaccination cards are already in circulation. I just can't see how a fully vaccinated ship will satisfy the CDC.

 

 

Edited by BermudaBound2014
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5 hours ago, KennyFla said:

I have already been vaccinated so I don't have a side in this fight.  I would like to point out that the CDC STILL has not given a go ahead for even all vaccinated cruises.

That is the most troubling thing to me.

I honestly don't think the CDC has any intention of giving the go ahead...period.  It's why more lines will begin to seek other embarkation ports.  Celebrity is already launching Caribbean cruises out of St. Martin.

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3 hours ago, Sthrngary said:

KennyFla, you hit it on the head.  This is a tread that is riddled with contradictions, false claims, misrepresenting science facts.  And when you challenge them, they want to engage you in verbal battle for hours on end.  It is not really a forum for lively discussion.  It is a place for a very few folk that have WAY to much time on their hand to attempt to show how smart they perceive themselves to be.  We can all live in fear, or not.  I nor any of the many family and friend I love dearly are in anyway possible fearful of a vaccine.  None of us are fearful to get on a cruise ship with folks that have had a vaccine.  What we are fearful of are folks that simply want to have verbal debates, when they are not authorities, doctors or scientists.  Where they are contradicting the doctors that serve us and treated us. 

 

Folks with no medical or Science education with a college or university that is actually accredited. Those folks giving advice is what I am most fearful of. Just saying.

I agree. As a litigator, I sometimes wonder how much some of you guys charge for your appellate briefs, expert witness affidavits and motions for summary judgment you post on this board. My eyes roll when posters on a CRUISE VACATION board have the time and energy to write a post over a paragraph.  I do it for a living but like to get  paid. I think it would be more appropriate and entertaining for a CRUISE VACATION board if posts made more direct and concise arguments. Hell the Gettysburgh Address was only 272 words. There is no judge or jury to convince. I'm going to rely upon the experts in the field for factual covid information and instruction not "some guy" on Cruisecritic.com. I wouldn't be surprised that some might be on here because THIS is your JOB-if you are going to persuade cruise patrons of a point of view-cruisecritic.com might be the place for you to go

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24 minutes ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

Oh please stop with the silly sensationalist nonsense.   The unvaccinated who have had Covid are far safer than you.   1 in 20 of you vaxxers won't be protected.  The last thing anyone wants is to let an unprotected vaxxer on a ship who thinks they have a force field around them infect other people 

Funny how you keep avoiding addressing the issues with "natural" Covid immunity. And it's not that 5% won't be protected.  Some may still have a much milder case.

BTW, Moderna now has sufficient data to apply for FDA permanent approval.

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2 hours ago, Stallion said:

I agree. As a litigator, I sometimes wonder how much some of you guys charge for your appellate briefs, expert witness affidavits and motions for summary judgment you post on this board. My eyes roll when posters on a CRUISE VACATION board have the time and energy to write a post over a paragraph.  I do it for a living but like to get  paid. I think it would be more appropriate and entertaining for a CRUISE VACATION board if posts made more direct and concise arguments. Hell the Gettysburgh Address was only 272 words. There is no judge or jury to convince. I'm going to rely upon the experts in the field for factual covid information and instruction not "some guy" on Cruisecritic.com. I wouldn't be surprised that some might be on here because THIS is your JOB-if you are going to persuade cruise patrons of a point of view-cruisecritic.com might be the place for you to go

Stallion, what we have here is someone with a very specific agenda.  That is simply a fact. We as a society have seen if someone says the same thing over and over again, people start to believe it. It does not need to have fact, alternative facts are fine if they support the narrative.  Folks also quote internet articles and call those as fact.  Sad really.  My fact comes from my Doctors whom have taken care of me for years.  From Scientist that have studied the specific subjects for decades.  Still, if someone, any one disagrees, that is fine.  My son says, Dad, "You do You, dad!"  

 

However, when one person writes literally 50 plus replies on a subject. When they reply day or night within a few seconds of the post, when they are condescending and rude.  When they challenge every single reply endlessly, it is just sad. These action are those of a Internet Troll just stirring the pot for the joy of seeing everyone go a little nuts.  With Covid-19, folks just want to have a hobby.  Making claims like you are the expert seems to be a pass time.  Me personally, I am going to focus on cruising and relaxing.  Been a while and we all need some R&R. 

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There is a certain poster on this thread that reminds me of that guy on Fox News that is is from the UK

That guy tells his opinion on what is wrong in US politics instead of what is wrong in his own country🤔

 

That guys name is Steve Hilton

and to any one wondering what a San Franciscan is doing watching Fox news

I wanted to hear what both sides are saying so i can formulate my own opinions

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5 hours ago, jonbgd said:

There is a certain poster on this thread that reminds me of that guy on Fox News that is is from the UK

That guy tells his opinion on what is wrong in US politics instead of what is wrong in his own country🤔

 

That guys name is Steve Hilton

and to any one wondering what a San Franciscan is doing watching Fox news

I wanted to hear what both sides are saying so i can formulate my own opinions

 

Let's be perfectly honest this happens the world over, I've lost count of the number of times I've heard different nationalities quote on our internal social and political matters with no real clue what they are talking about.

 

It's prevalent here on cruisecritic with many US posters telling other nationalities what their cruise contract, terms and conditions and laws are without reference to the fact that things are different in different markets.

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14 hours ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

I honestly don't think the CDC has any intention of giving the go ahead...period.  It's why more lines will begin to seek other embarkation ports.  Celebrity is already launching Caribbean cruises out of St. Martin.

Aaahhh, St Martin. Loved sitting at the Sunset Bar and Grill watching the planes 50 feet over your head.

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