Vax and Federal Law

[morfred]

So if my wife and I are vaccinated we are protected against Covid. If other people do not want to get the vaccine (a minority at this point) so be it. We will happily go on a cruise and know that we are protected. It is time to take back my life and move on. Anti vaxxers be damned.

[iancal]

The prevailing legal view in our jurisdiction appears to be that employers can insist on vaccination as a condition of employment based on job description.  They already do for certain hospital workers.

 

The flip side is a liability issue.   Employers have a duty of care to protect their employees.   Businesses have a duty of care to protect their customers.   I cannot imagine any employer with customer facing employees not insisting on a vaccination as a condition of employment.  Same for employers whose employees are working in very close proximity such as a meat packing plant.

[nocl]

2 minutes ago, iancal said:

The prevailing legal view in our jurisdiction appears to be that employers can insist on vaccination as a condition of employment based on job description.  They already do for certain hospital workers.

 

The flip side is a liability issue.   Employers have a duty of care to protect their employees.   Businesses have a duty of care to protect their customers.   I cannot imagine any employer with customer facing employees not insisting on a vaccination as a condition of employment.  Same for employers whose employees are working in very close proximity such as a meat packing plant.

As long as employment is at will.  Could be a different case if unions are involved in which case it might require contract modifications if they do not include similar requirements.

[nocl]

22 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

The US military is not requiring the vaccine at the moment citing the EUA nature of the vaccine.  The lawyers have apparently won this one.  I disagree with the decision and believe everyone in the military should be vaccinated.  FYI - I served in uniform for 30 years and was vaccinated against just about everything...

There was a court decision from when the Army tried to force soldiers to take an experimental vaccine for anthrax.  The court case decided against the Army.

 

With Covid they are not requiring anyone to get vaccinated for Covid.  However, if they choose not to, they are not eligible for deployment.  So while technical not being required, refusing does have an impact.  

[nocl]

4 hours ago, WonderMan3 said:

My understanding is that public schools and universities can't do that until it comes off its emergency use status and is fully approved by the FDA. Private schools and universities however can implement whatever rules they want at anytime for vaccine requirement (exceptions for health allergies and legitimate religious medical beliefs).

There are at least 7 universities/colleges (Brown, Rutgers, Northeastern, Nova Southeastern, St. Edwards University, Cornell, Fort Lewis) that have already announced that vaccination will be required for  faculty, staff and students  this fall.

[WonderMan3]

5 hours ago, nocl said:

There are at least 7 universities/colleges (Brown, Rutgers, Northeastern, Nova Southeastern, St. Edwards University, Cornell, Fort Lewis) that have already announced that vaccination will be required for  faculty, staff and students  this fall.

Yes. Those are all private colleges/universities I believe, which supports what I was saying.

[WonderMan3]

6 hours ago, morfred said:

So if my wife and I are vaccinated we are protected against Covid. If other people do not want to get the vaccine (a minority at this point) so be it. We will happily go on a cruise and know that we are protected. It is time to take back my life and move on. Anti vaxxers be damned.

The problem is you are only 90-95% protected so unvaccinated people on a cruise ship with you (an environment we know is ideal for transmission of contagious viruses like Covid or Noro) do put you still at risk. Having a ship full of verified vaccinated passengers reduces that risk to an extremely low number. Not to mention the fact that if someone turns up positive during the cruise it could lead to a major shut down of that cruise’s operations up to and possibly including you being confined to your cabin, ports refusing to allow the ship to dock or the cruise being cancelled midway through its journey. So there is more to consider here than just you and your party being vaccinated. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by WonderMan3

[morfred]

6 hours ago, WonderMan3 said:

The problem is you are only 90-95% protected so unvaccinated people on a cruise ship with you (an environment we know is ideal for transmission of contagious viruses like Covid or Noro) do put you still at risk. Having a ship full of verified vaccinated passengers reduces that risk to an extremely low number. Not to mention the fact that if someone turns up positive during the cruise it could lead to a major shut down of that cruise’s operations up to and possibly including you being confined to your cabin, ports refusing to allow the ship to dock or the cruise being cancelled midway through its journey. So there is more to consider here than just you and your party being vaccinated. 

I agree that this is a small/teeny/tiny risk but one that I will gladly take. It is time to move on.

 

ps WonderMan3-We have had a cottage in N. Truro for almost 40 yrs and look forward to a great summer.

[TeeRick]

7 hours ago, WonderMan3 said:

The problem is you are only 90-95% protected so unvaccinated people on a cruise ship with you (an environment we know is ideal for transmission of contagious viruses like Covid or Noro) do put you still at risk. Having a ship full of verified vaccinated passengers reduces that risk to an extremely low number. Not to mention the fact that if someone turns up positive during the cruise it could lead to a major shut down of that cruise’s operations up to and possibly including you being confined to your cabin, ports refusing to allow the ship to dock or the cruise being cancelled midway through its journey. So there is more to consider here than just you and your party being vaccinated. 

This is true but if you are at slight risk of getting a case of COVID even if vaccinated, you are essentially at no risk for having a severe case requiring hospitalization or worse with all of the current vaccines approved in the US.

[TeeRick]

16 hours ago, hcat said:

 

Curious  how can they prove long term safety for children in a short time frame?

 

Many adults who are not anti vaxers have legit  concerns and questions about the long term vaccine  effects on children..Taking the vaccine themselves is one thing but deciding for children is another.

hcat you have hit on the issue that many rational and loving parents will face with COVID vaccines.  No easy answer really.  Normally new vaccines are tested over time in kids all the way down to infants.  A few years in total of accumulated safety data.   But even in those cases it is not really long term.  Not like decades of data.  But the kids get vaccinated because the risk of serious consequences of the disease or death is far greater than the vaccine risk.  Most parents understand this.  Now COVID is a very interesting case study here.  In general kids can get infected but for the vast majority of cases it is very mild or even non-symptomatic.  Yes they are carriers and can infect adults.  But what is the chance of infecting the now vaccinated adults (Grandparents, Parents, Teachers, etc.)?  So COVID poses a very different risk vs reward equation for vaccinating kids.  I would personally still choose to vaccinate my own kids because I would be worried about long term effects (long haul) of COVID infections even if mild.  

[Bo1953]

On 4/6/2021 at 6:13 PM, vermonter16 said:

I can give a person a ton of reasons why as well and I would encourage people to get the vaccine.  Although people are laughing at me, I actually went into the trials and received the vaccine months ago because I wanted to help the common good.  But - you would have to determine that this a measles, polio type situation to make the vaccine mandatory and that this is different than the flu over the course of time.  I believe this is different than the flu because it affects people so differently, but you have got to start from the ground up - that is my opinion.  People can continue to laugh if they want, but this whole situation is going to take time and facts and long term statistics to mandate a vaccine federally - at least it should, again, in my opinion.  

v - I do not think anyone is suggesting that it be a Federal project, for proof, vs just insuring everyone who chooses to cruise or enter any private business for all that matters. Business owners have the right to require proof of vaccination and not infringe on the rights of those who choose not to be vaccinated for whatever reason as those who may not want to be vaccinated or provide proof can choose to patronize a business which does not require it.

 

Just like kids on any particular cruise ship, we can choose to go on those with lots, few or no kids aboard...

 

In health and bon voyage

[K.T.B.]

7 hours ago, WonderMan3 said:

The problem is you are only 90-95% protected so unvaccinated people on a cruise ship with you (an environment we know is ideal for transmission of contagious viruses like Covid or Noro) do put you still at risk. Having a ship full of verified vaccinated passengers reduces that risk to an extremely low number. Not to mention the fact that if someone turns up positive during the cruise it could lead to a major shut down of that cruise’s operations up to and possibly including you being confined to your cabin, ports refusing to allow the ship to dock or the cruise being cancelled midway through its journey. So there is more to consider here than just you and your party being vaccinated. 

 

I truly wish everyone would realize this.  The vaccines are all offering great protection, but they're not a "silver bullet".  The need for masks will still be there for the foreseeable future.  Ditto for social distancing, but at 3 feet and not 6 now.  I'm not doctor nor do I pretend to be one, but the "Tunnel" thread has taught me a lot about vaccines and the pandemic.  I firmly believe within a year or so, IF 70% of the US population gets vaccinated (25% of adults already have at least 1 shot by the way), then masks will not be needed as much.  Mostly on flights and highly congested areas.

 

Having a ship of people who are ALL vaccinated, I seriously doubt there would be any outbreaks.  Never say never, but the odds are very, very slim.

[Charles4515]

14 hours ago, morfred said:

So if my wife and I are vaccinated we are protected against Covid. If other people do not want to get the vaccine (a minority at this point) so be it. We will happily go on a cruise and know that we are protected. It is time to take back my life and move on. Anti vaxxers be damned.

 

The problem is if someone on the cruise who is not vaccinated gets Covid the odds are the cruise will likely be aborted. Or we may be stuck on the ship because ports refuse to take the ship. Watch the HBO documentary on Diamond Princess.  So my time and money spent would be down the drain and my vacation ruined. I am vaccinated but I won't book a cruise that does not require vaccination. 

[ECCruise]

16 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

The problem is if someone on the cruise who is not vaccinated gets Covid the odds are the cruise will likely be aborted. Or we may be stuck on the ship because ports refuse to take the ship. Watch the HBO documentary on Diamond Princess.  So my time and money spent would be down the drain and my vacation ruined. I am vaccinated but I won't book a cruise that does not require vaccination. 

Much of the discussion here centers around the notion that if you do get COVID you will likely not be terribly sick or die, which is true.

I long ago stopped being concerned about getting COVID.  However, I totally agree with your assessment that any infection, no matter how minor, will likely severely impact your sailing.  

[cruiselvr04]

I work for a large hospital in Dallas.  Administration has assured us that that they will not mandate a vaccine.   
 

In  the past with flu shot we were given a choice.  However if you didn’t get the flu shot you had to wear a mask around patients for the entire flu season or about 6 months out of the year.  Most who didn’t get the flu vaccine had had allergic responses to it which included trips to the ER.  A few just don’t believe they are necessary. 

 

If you have worked somewhere for years and they suddenly come out with a mandate do you think it’s fair to fire them, have them lose their job, their pension, their retirement and insurance coverage?  Really?  
 

While this is a serious illness, Faccui says that masks work.  If this is true leave them alone! Or do masks not work?

 

I’m just trying to help some of you see both sides.  Would I feel better if the doctors and nurses caring for me have received their vaccines?  Probably.  But since I am fully vaccinated it shouldn’t really matter anymore. According to the CDC I’m now at low risk and even if I got covid it would be mild.

 

Get the vaccine to be safe and go about your life.  I did.  Let others to decide for themselves.

 

 

[TeeRick]

45 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

The problem is if someone on the cruise who is not vaccinated gets Covid the odds are the cruise will likely be aborted. Or we may be stuck on the ship because ports refuse to take the ship. Watch the HBO documentary on Diamond Princess.  So my time and money spent would be down the drain and my vacation ruined. I am vaccinated but I won't book a cruise that does not require vaccination. 

Yes that is my biggest concern.  There is a threshold level of COVID positives that would cause the recently announced cruises to return to port immediately.  Read the fine print.  The problem is that we do not know the definition of threshold level. 

[jagoffee]

Factoring in the positive impact of the vaccine, I suspect the cruise lines will have protocols related  to anyone becoming infected while on a cruise.  I am not convince that a few cases of Covid will result in a cruise being aborted.  There could be isolation cabins, evacuation protocols, perhaps treatments, etc.  The world knows a lot more about Covid now.  Just some possibilities.
 

[Fouremco]

12 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

Factoring in the positive impact of the vaccine, I suspect the cruise lines will have protocols related  to anyone becoming infected while on a cruise.  I am not convince that a few cases of Covid will result in a cruise being aborted.  There could be isolation cabins, evacuation protocols, perhaps treatments, etc.  The world knows a lot more about Covid now.  Just some possibilities.
 

Unfortunately, Celebrity has chosen not to share information on what steps they would take. Hardly a confidence boosting decision on their part.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

Unfortunately, Celebrity has chosen not to share information on what steps they would take. Hardly a confidence boosting decision on their part.

If they do not tell you then they do not have to worry about upsetting people if they change how they would handle it.  It is a just trust us approach.

[Charles4515]

1 hour ago, jagoffee said:

Factoring in the positive impact of the vaccine, I suspect the cruise lines will have protocols related  to anyone becoming infected while on a cruise.  I am not convince that a few cases of Covid will result in a cruise being aborted.  There could be isolation cabins, evacuation protocols, perhaps treatments, etc.  The world knows a lot more about Covid now.  Just some possibilities.
 

 

There are possibilities. Since I have been on over 60 cruises I don't feel like I have to rush onto the first sailings when cruises restart from the US. It is not like I have missed out on cruises in my life. I discovered the last year I can live a while without a cruise. I will wait at least six months after restart and see how it plays out. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Charles4515

[KWW88]

13 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

There are possibilities. Since I have been on over 60 cruises I don't feel like I have to rush onto the first sailings when cruises restart from the US. It is not like I have missed out on cruises in my life. I discovered the last year I can live a while without a cruise. I will wait at least six months after restart and see how it plays out. 

I feel the exact same way.  I several weeks ago cancelled an Aug cruise out of FL, had refundable deposit so I booked a TA for April, also out of FL.  I just feel like this will give them (and me) time to work out any kinks in the protocols and feel comfortable after several months of what we all hope will be very safe and successful return to cruising.  To those of you that do sail this year, I wish you well and have a great cruise!

[dodger1964]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:30 AM, NonnaTLC said:

If everyone is not required to show proof of vaccination, I will not be cruising.

End of story.

not just to pick on you (meaning there are more people saying same thing, but I just picked yours as first one I saw to quote), but for this argument I'm curious what else people that think this way won't do going forward, fly, eat at restaurant, movies, sporting events??

 

My 2 cents...I'm getting 2nd dose later today, 2 weeks from now, I'm good to go (in my mind)...i really don't care if those I come into contact with have been vaccinated or not. I know I'm not 100% covered, but high enough to take that chance.

 

I'm very interested in others opinions.

 

 

[KWW88]

1 minute ago, dodger1964 said:

not just to pick on you (meaning there are more people saying same thing, but I just picked yours as first one I saw to quote), but for this argument I'm curious what else people that think this way won't do going forward, fly, eat at restaurant, movies, sporting events??

 

My 2 cents...I'm getting 2nd dose later today, 2 weeks from now, I'm good to go (in my mind)...i really don't care if those I come into contact with have been vaccinated or not. I know I'm not 100% covered, but high enough to take that chance.

 

I'm very interested in others opinions.

 

 

Getting the vaccine is a personal choice and we all have the right to get it or not.  I do though want the cruise lines to make boarding passengers provide proof.  Not because I am afraid of getting COVID as I have been vaccinated (well shot #1) but because if there is an outbreak on the ship, I don't want to be confined to my cabin or just floating at sea with no port taking the ship in.

[cruiselvr04]

While I don’t think employers should mandate vaccines cruise lines are very different.  I do think crew vaccines should be mandatory at least in the beginning.  Those who can’t get them or won’t have the option not to come back.  The reason is what some of you have expressed.  No one wants a sick ship.  There is no place else on earth I can think of except maybe an outpost somewhere,  where people are cohorts together for greater then 3 days.  We all know the cruise lines get a bad rap over norovirus too and that’s the same issue.  A hotel can make people sick but there is a steady amount of people coming and going so it’s never really traced down.

 

I don’t want a sick ship that needs to be quarantined.  I don’t want my vacation extended by 2 weeks either.  Why would a cruise line even want to take a chance again on that?  

[Arizona Wildcat]

3 hours ago, ECCruise said:

Much of the discussion here centers around the notion that if you do get COVID you will likely not be terribly sick or die, which is true.

I long ago stopped being concerned about getting COVID.  However, I totally agree with your assessment that any infection, no matter how minor, will likely severely impact your sailing.  

That is the problem.  If someone has symptoms, like a fever, they will be tested for covid.  An outbreak on board would likely end a cruise.