Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[K.T.B.]

41 minutes ago, markeb said:

Blazing Saddles. Harrumph. If you don’t remember it, look it up on YouTube. 
 

And yes. If CLIA needs a consultant I can figure out an hourly rate...

 

Don't know. Mongo only pawn in game of life.

[CGTNORMANDIE]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

Blazing Saddles. Harrumph. If you don’t remember it, look it up on YouTube. 
 

And yes. If CLIA needs a consultant I can figure out an hourly rate...

“Gentlemen...we have to protect our phony balony jobs”...Mel Brooks

[Ride-The-Waves]

9 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

“Gentlemen...we have to protect our phony balony jobs”...Mel Brooks

Perfect for the fairness of Branson.  Last place I would visit in the US...

[TeeRick]

12 hours ago, HS2BS said:

A big problem that is on the horizon is that the most of the crews on ships come from countries that vaccinated with the Sino version that has now been found to be only be 25 - 50% effective! That according the the  Director of Chinese Center for Disease Control, GAO Fu, “Chinese vaccines don’t have a high protection rate”. Look this up on news outlets such as Blumberg or The BBC using google.

 

We discussed this topic on the vaccine thread.

[NMTraveller]

On 4/14/2021 at 7:06 AM, TeeRick said:

I am pretty sure the CDC acknowledges the efficacy of the vaccines.  It is hard for us avid cruise-a-holics to be patient after more than 1 year operational shutdown when most other things are at least partially open.  The cruises starting in June from non-US ports will perhaps create the data (one way or the other) for the CDC to change the NSO.  Or not.   These cruises play directly into the cards that the CDC is now holding.  No need to actually change anything until they see what happens with these early cruises.  So the cruise industry blinked first in the staring contest.  If they can safely operate these initial cruises then there will be heat on the CDC to move forward.  But if any of these early cruises turns back with outbreaks even with vaccines, then the CDC has positioned themselves in the right spot.  

I think that the Celebrity cruises starting out in June will point out a problem with unvaccinated kids on the ships.  Right now our state has the highest vaccination rates in the country.  We sent the kiddos back to school first week of April.  Our numbers are going back up slowly due to unvaccinated teachers and unvaccinated kids.  The teachers were given the opportunity to get their vaccines but some refused.

 

How many cases will shut down a cruise ship?  For schools it is 4.

 

I don't see myself sailing on a cruise ship with unvaccinated people anytime soon as I don't want to see my vacation cut short..

Edited April 15, 2021 by NMTraveller

[Ride-The-Waves]

33 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

I think that the Celebrity cruises starting out in June will point out a problem with unvaccinated kids on the ships.  Right now our state has the highest vaccination rates in the country.  We sent the kiddos back to school first week of April.  Our numbers are going back up slowly due to unvaccinated teachers and unvaccinated kids.  The teachers were given the opportunity to get their vaccines but some refused.

 

How many cases will shut down a cruise ship?  For schools it is 4.

 

I don't see myself sailing on a cruise ship with unvaccinated people anytime soon as I don't want to see my vacation cut short..

Agree.  In many locales unvaccinated youth are spreading COVID-19 to adults.  Recent example s include the coaches who have died from COVID-19 while working/refereeing youth sports programs.  The virus is smart, it knows how to evolve and attack new victims.  Putting unvaccinated anybodies on a cruise ship for 7 days with others is just plain nuts.

[Mike981]

Unfortunately as the younger generation is getting infected, it is hitting them hard.

I think even after cruising restarts it is going to  be an ever changing situation. And if masks are required, based on what I have seen TV with sports fans there will be plenty who won't listen. Target field the home of the Minnesota Twins baseball team has a mask mandate and you can only take it off when eating or drinking, many-many folks don't wear one.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Mike981 said:

Unfortunately as the younger generation is getting infected, it is hitting them hard.

I think even after cruising restarts it is going to  be an ever changing situation. And if masks are required, based on what I have seen TV with sports fans there will be plenty who won't listen. Target field the home of the Minnesota Twins baseball team has a mask mandate and you can only take it off when eating or drinking, many-many folks don't wear one.

The variants particularly P1 and B.117 are hitting younger individuals much harder than the original strain such that the belief that only the old and those which pre-existing conditions needed to worry about it is no longer valid.

[Mike981]

56 minutes ago, nocl said:

The variants particularly P1 and B.117 are hitting younger individuals much harder than the original strain such that the belief that only the old and those which pre-existing conditions needed to worry about it is no longer valid.

 

Yes, agree. There is also talk that some are also turning into long haulers and no one knows the extent of it.

[nocl]

22 hours ago, nocl said:

Since the cruise lines are asking passengers to send letters to congress and since I live in the district of the Chairman of the Coast Guard and Maritime subcommittee, I decided to send him a letter saying that the cruise lines are complaining about the CDCs technical document why not use his committee to ask them to submit their plan about what they are willing to commit to and how it differs from the CDC Framework.

Sent my letter in last night.  Today I got a call from his office.  Had a very interesting discussion with one of his staffers.  He indicated that he would forward it to the staffers for the sub-committee and would let me know of any feedback or anything else interesting concerning cruise lines.

[Ken the cruiser]

On 4/14/2021 at 4:11 PM, nocl said:

If the cruises make a serious attempt to put forth what they consider reasonable and put forth an actual position instead of just criticizing the CDC framework.

 

MSC appears to be doing that based upon their sailings in Europe. RCL and CCL lines not so much.

It appears NCL already has submitted what they believe is a serious proposal on April 5th to restart cruising out of US ports in July 2021.

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Submits Plan to CDC. Asks for July 4 Restart - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

And NCLH's has submitted a follow-up email today requesting a respond to their proposal as it appears they "have yet to receive even an acknowledgment of this proposal".

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Wants an Answer from the CDC - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

Note: I realize I posted this on a HAL thread as well, but I wanted to post this here as well as it seems pretty relevant to the discussion.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[Ride-The-Waves]

News today reports that COVID-19 is on the increase in 38 states - three-quarters of the US.  Pfizer has also announced that a third vaccination will be required to protect against new strains of COVID-19.  We are not out of the woods yet and could be looking at a tough summer in many places.  We completed the Pfizer series in late January and maintained social distancing and using PPE in public places.  Did notice an increase in massless shoppers at the supermarket Sunday AM.  Not good.  As Yogi Berra said: "Its not over until it's over."  We have cruises booked for 2022 and looking forward to embarking again.  However, will not be enjoying the open seas if this pandemic isn't under control.

 

And, it's just not US cruising.  Our cruises include two trans-Atlantics.  EU countries are currently stressed to control more outbreaks, especially Italy and France.  UK is struggling, as well.  Traveling to, across and back from Europe could be a real challenge if things don't improve.  I am content to let the medical professionals, the epidemiologists, at the CDC make the determinations.  

Edited April 15, 2021 by Ride-The-Waves

[Ride-The-Waves]

15 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

It appears NCL already has submitted what they believe is a serious proposal on April 5th to restart cruising out of US ports in July 2021.

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Submits Plan to CDC. Asks for July 4 Restart - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

And NCLH's has submitted a follow-up email today requesting a respond to their proposal as it appears they "have yet to receive even an acknowledgment of this proposal".

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Wants an Answer from the CDC - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

So NCL and others let the CDC "hang" for over 6 months but want an immediate response from the CDC while cases are blossoming in 38 states.  How cavalier of them.  Just another example of how the cruise lines are not really interested in the safety and security of passengers.

[Fouremco]

21 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

It appears NCL already has submitted what they believe is a serious proposal on April 5th to restart cruising out of US ports in July 2021.

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Submits Plan to CDC. Asks for July 4 Restart - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

And NCLH's has submitted a follow-up email today requesting a respond to their proposal as it appears they "have yet to receive even an acknowledgment of this proposal".

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Wants an Answer from the CDC - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

Note: I realize I posted this on a HAL thread as well, but I wanted to post this here as well as it seems pretty relevant to the discussion.

While I can fully understand the CDC not having provided a response to the contents of the proposal, which require more than a few scant days examination and consideration before a decision is rendered, I do think that it is unfortunate that the CDC hasn't as yet acknowledged receipt of the proposal. 

[nocl]

41 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

It appears NCL already has submitted what they believe is a serious proposal on April 5th to restart cruising out of US ports in July 2021.

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Submits Plan to CDC. Asks for July 4 Restart - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

And NCLH's has submitted a follow-up email today requesting a respond to their proposal as it appears they "have yet to receive even an acknowledgment of this proposal".

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Wants an Answer from the CDC - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

Note: I realize I posted this on a HAL thread as well, but I wanted to post this here as well as it seems pretty relevant to the discussion.

I will give the same response that I gave in the HAL thread.  What the article refers to as a plan is a as the article states an outline of their plan, not the detailed plan itself.  So NCL has not actually submitted a plan.  

 

So while they think it is a serious proposal it is more of a high level framework not a plan.  And they have not put in place any of the agreements CDC is requiring.  

 

With that said they submitted in less than two weeks ago and any credible review will take time and consultation.  If NCL was in such a rush they should have submitted it months ago. Once the vaccines became available.

Edited April 15, 2021 by nocl

[Ken the cruiser]

If NCLH in their "plan" is saying that ALL of their passengers and crew onboard their ships must be vaccinated, that's the precedent I want to hear, especially since CDC didn't want to step up to that requirement in their Phase 2A TIs. If the CDC had made that as a requirement, then IMHO a lot of the more expensive "worst case scenario" Phase 2A protocols that are now being required may have been reduced or eliminated, to include, dare I say, the no revenue "test cruises".

 

CDC recommends that all eligible port personnel and travelers (passengers and crew) get a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available to them.   

 

But, of course, those are just my thoughts. I guess, as always, we'll just have to wait and see how CDC responds to NCLH's latest request.

[nocl]

27 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

If NCLH in their "plan" is saying that ALL of their passengers and crew onboard their ships must be vaccinated, that's the precedent I want to hear, especially since CDC didn't want to step up to that requirement in their Phase 2A TIs. If the CDC had made that as a requirement, then IMHO a lot of the more expensive "worst case scenario" Phase 2A protocols that are now being required may have been reduced or eliminated, to include, dare I say, the no revenue "test cruises".

 

CDC recommends that all eligible port personnel and travelers (passengers and crew) get a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available to them.   

 

But, of course, those are just my thoughts. I guess, as always, we'll just have to wait and see how CDC responds to NCLH's latest request.

CDC cannot make it a requirement at this stage.  They can once it is fully approved.  But keep in mind if they do make it a requirement then the vaccines that must be used would also be limited. Far better the cruise lines to propose it as part of their plan, with CDC oversight and enforcement.  

 

If they expect their plan to be so effective then the agreements should be simple and any cost low.

 

Keep in mind that the "cost" of no revenue test cruises is minimal.  Since they are to demonstrate proper implementation of the agreed upon plan.  The cost is far far less than what they are paying each month for idle ships.

 

You do notice NCL wants release from the CSO order in exchange for requiring vaccine.  They are not saying they they are willing to execute their plan under CDC oversight.

 

It is not the cost that is and issue it is CDC oversight that is the issue.

Edited April 15, 2021 by nocl

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

CDC cannot make it a requirement at this stage.  They can once it is fully approved.  But keep in mind if they do make it a requirement then the vaccines that must be used would also be limited. Far better the cruise lines to propose it as part of their plan, with CDC oversight and enforcement.  

 

If they expect their plan to be so effective then the agreements should be simple and any cost low.

 

Keep in mind that the "cost" of no revenue test cruises is minimal.  Since they are to demonstrate proper implementation of the agreed upon plan.  The cost is far far less than what they are paying each month for idle ships.

 

You do notice NCL wants release from the CSO order in exchange for requiring vaccine.  They are not saying they they are willing to execute their plan under CDC oversight.

 

It is not the cost that is and issue it is CDC oversight that is the issue.

That's fine. So who is not wanting to sit down at the negotiating table to resolve these differences, especially if NCLH is willing to require vaccines while CDC can't? From the way I'm reading all this, and I am probably wrong, it appears the ball is in CDC's court to respond the NCLH proposition, even if it's just an outline as you suggest.

 

-OR- 

 

Is the CDC avoiding NCLH's proposal because they don't want to have one set of rules for cruise lines that will require vaccines and another set of rules for those that don't want to require all of their passengers and crew to be vaccinated?

Edited April 16, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[nocl]

3 hours ago, Fouremco said:

While I can fully understand the CDC not having provided a response to the contents of the proposal, which require more than a few scant days examination and consideration before a decision is rendered, I do think that it is unfortunate that the CDC hasn't as yet acknowledged receipt of the proposal. 

NCL did not say they did not acknowledge the receipt of the letter.  They are saying that they want an response (as in answer)  concerning what was proposed in the letter.

[markeb]

2 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

That's fine. So who is not wanting to sit down at the negotiating table to resolve these differences, especially if NCHL is willing to require vaccines while CDC can't? From the way I'm reading all this, and I am probably wrong, it appears the ball is in CDC's court to respond the NCLH proposition, even if it's just an outline as you suggest.

 

They'll almost certainly get a response to an actual letter. It's kind of how the game is played. Some poor PHS Commander detailed to CDC will get to draft something...

 

Thank you for the opportunity to review your recent outline for returning to sailing. As you're aware, the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order released on October 30, 2020, and the technical instructions released on April 2, 2021 call for specific actions and specific documentation of agreements. While we agree that requiring immunizations mitigates a significant amount of risk, the  document submitted does not meet the requirements...

 

Followed by a number of bullet points.

 

My staff remains available to provide assistance as we work to ensure both public health and a safe return to cruising.

 

Signed

 

Really enjoyed reading your essay. Too bad you didn't read the question...

[nocl]

9 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

That's fine. So who is not wanting to sit down at the negotiating table to resolve these differences, especially if NCLH is willing to require vaccines while CDC can't? From the way I'm reading all this, and I am probably wrong, it appears the ball is in CDC's court to respond the NCLH proposition, even if it's just an outline as you suggest.

 

-OR- 

 

Is the CDC avoiding NCLH's proposal because they don't want to have one set of rules for cruise lines that will require vaccines and another set of rules for those that don't want to require all of their passengers and crew to be vaccinated?

As I have said before CDC is recommending as strong as they legal can.

 

CDC is most likely not avoiding NCL's proposal they are generating a response to it.  Any response is not going to be an off the cuff lets kick of a letter by one individual.  A response takes looking at the current knowledge and applying to the proposal.  While the full vaccination is probably a strategy that CDC will accept as part of the whole, it will still be required in conjunction for other actions.

 

It might reduce the number of quarantine locations that they need to have agreements for but will not eliminate the agreements.

 

The cruise line might say they are going to fully vaccinate, but the CDC will want to know how they are going to validate vaccination status.

 

Tests may or may not still be required.

 

The point is that NCL submitted a outline, not a full proposal.  The full proposal may be a replacement for portions of the CDC plan but will not eliminate all of yet.  NCL isn't asking for the CDC detailed response as a step to move forward, they are asking for a response to their request if the CDC will remove them from the CSO requirement.  I am pretty certain the answer to that is no.

 

Is there letter a good starting point for a change in the CSO framework yes.

 

But the way NCL is going about it, submitting an outline, calling it a plan and based upon that level of detail asking to be removed from the CSO, that tells me that it is a PR stunt. Something they can point to as they go about their lobbying. So they can say here is what we said we were going to do and the CDC still said no.

[markeb]

2 minutes ago, nocl said:

But the way NCL is going about it, submitting an outline, calling it a plan and based upon that level of detail asking to be removed from the CSO, that tells me that it is a PR stunt. Something they can point to as they go about their lobbying. So they can say here is what we said we were going to do and the CDC still said no.

 

You spent your life on the wrong side of the river. We were far more sarcastic in Arlington...

[Fouremco]

10 minutes ago, nocl said:

NCL did not say they did not acknowledge the receipt of the letter.  They are saying that they want an response (as in answer)  concerning what was proposed in the letter.

You might want to reread yesterday's Cruise Industry News article which quotes the letter from Del Rio in which he states that "It is frustrating, that to date, we have yet to receive even an acknowledgment of this proposal." 

[Ken the cruiser]

22 minutes ago, nocl said:

NCL did not say they did not acknowledge the receipt of the letter.  They are saying that they want an response (as in answer)  concerning what was proposed in the letter.

This is what was written in the follow-up letter from Frank Del Rio:

 

It is frustrating, that to date, we have yet to receive even an acknowledgment of this proposal. I do recognize that you have many important public health issues to tend to and was reticent to even write, however, we strongly believe our proposal should be the model for how the travel and hospitality industry operates in a COVID-19 environment.

[markeb]

7 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

This is what was written in the follow-up letter from Frank Del Rio:

 

It is frustrating, that to date, we have yet to receive even an acknowledgment of this proposal. I do recognize that you have many important public health issues to tend to and was reticent to even write, however, we strongly believe our proposal should be the model for how the travel and hospitality industry operates in a COVID-19 environment.

The fact they’ve not received a reply should be taken as a sign that their proposal is getting more consideration than it probably deserves. People may actually be looking at it and thinking about it. Rather than wasting staff time saying we’re reviewing it. That actually takes time...
 

You can write and staff a no in 24-48 hours. Although CDC is going to be really technical in its answer; it’s who they are.