Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[hcat]

5 hours ago, harkinmr said:

This is more political theatre from the Governor.  As is being reported now by Florida news, the cruise lines were not even notified that the lawsuit was going to be filed.  I would think that the state would have sought input and cooperation from the cruise lines, even joining them in any filing.  Legal experts are not giving the lawsuit much of chance to succeed.  The complaint is attached.  The state is seeking injunctive relief and asking the court to declare the CSO unlawful; essentially an abuse of CDC's authority.  In the alternative, the state is asking that the cruise lines be able to start under "reasonable safety protocols".  Highly unlikely that a court would define what those are and would kick it back to the CDC.  The lines would be in the same position. 

1202000920_FLORIDALAWSUIT.pdf 421.47 kB · 8 downloads

Somehow I missed this link before.

Will be an interesting read...seems from the post above more parties would be needed for standing????

[nocl]

1 hour ago, jagoffee said:

Just to clarify.  You read the original No Sail extension order and the “framework guidelines”?  I personally do not believe that it was even intended to lead to cruises restarting.  It was created to make sure that they would not restart unless undefined infection criteria results were obtained.  The CDC could not get the Presidential TAsk force to sign off on a blanket no Sail Order until November 1, 2021, so they created a totally unworkable document instead.   

If you have read the original document than you have an informed opinion of the document.  It is just different than mine.  No, I have not read the other document that you mentioned, so I will neither commend or criticize it.  
I have read the CDC original document, therefore I draw my opinion.  I still think it is Bureaucratic B.S., but I will admit that I have the same opinion of certain bills passed by Congress and some other government documents.  I worked in private industry and a lot of those documents are just plain absurd IMO and unworkable for the common person and/or business.  
I do accept the fact that others both admire and support the CDC document and actions.  I do not.

 

What exactly about the document do you consider to be BS?  Point out actual sections that you disagree with instead of just saying the entire document is BS?

[harkinmr]

19 minutes ago, hcat said:

Somehow I missed this link before.

Will be an interesting read...seems from the post above more parties would be needed for standing????

Whether the state has legal standing is certainly an issue.  The cruise lines, on the other hand, would have an arguable claim to being directly and negatively impacted by the regulations.  But still, great latitude is given to the government in cases of public health.  As well, the federal has broad authority to regulate ports of entry and international commerce.  This is like the vaccine passport executive order issued by the Governor; more for show than anything meaningful.  I have not seen anything from the cruise lines yet that they intend to join in the state's efforts.  They are claiming, as late as today, that they want to work with the CDC.  It seems they are willing to sit back and let this play out, but it doesn't help them in that regard if the CDC is being sued.

Edited April 9, 2021 by harkinmr

[cachouonacruise]

To me it looks like a conflict of interests:

 

The CDC focuses mainly if not only on health issues, regardless of the economical impact.

 

The Florida Governor, is mainly, if not only concerned about the economic issues for him, his state, and his lobbying/fund raising groups.

 

Avid cruisers....just want to cruise and don’t want to take no for an answer...

 

Meanwhile, COVID is laughing.

 

In Ontario, the number of cases is exploding because of the impacts of the new variants. As a result, the province is back in lockdown.

 

In Quebec, we have smaller regions now exploding. These regions have a curfew, closures of non-essential businesses, schools, etc and, due to human exhaustion, not enough medical personnel to take care of a younger generation of people, showing up in hospitals and ICUs. We just lost a 16 year old and a very active healthy 40 year old man.

 

In Quebec, only about 20 percent of the population has received a first vaccination dose.....We’re still debating on the merits of Astra-Zeneca vaccine, mainly for its 

possible side effects on women.

 

It really saddens me to realize that our selfish conflict of interest seem to supersede the needed altruism and generosity required to beat COVID. No nation seems to take the lead on insuring international relief for Covid.... This is hurting an industry we all love: cruising. Since it is not a local or even national industry.

 

In conclusion, what’s the point of opening the port of Miami if the rest of the Caribbean countries and the world is infested with Covid? 

 

Food for thoughts.

[Ken the cruiser]

46 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

Does anybody know if anyone in the FL government is helping the cruise lines with contingency planning which the CDC is looking for to assure that a ship returning to a FL port has the necessary medical facilities available without overloading the healthcare system of the FLL/MIA,  Tampa or PC areas?   It would seem that this is an area where the state, cruise lines and CDC could cooperate to find an acceptable solution.

Great question!!!

[harkinmr]

48 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

Does anybody know if anyone in the FL government is helping the cruise lines with contingency planning which the CDC is looking for to assure that a ship returning to a FL port has the necessary medical facilities available without overloading the healthcare system of the FLL/MIA,  Tampa or PC areas?   It would seem that this is an area where the state, cruise lines and CDC could cooperate to find an acceptable solution.

Given the litigious posture of the State of Florida and the demand that the CSO be invalidated and cruising to proceed immediately, I doubt that the Governor has any interest in participating in the CSO process.

[morechances]

8 hours ago, doneall50 said:

At least FL is trying! Other cruise ports should support this. 

On of the ways that cruise lines are going to get back in vaccinations.

And proof of vaccination. Hmmm, same Fl is against those. Hmmmm

[nocl]

6 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Given the litigious posture of the State of Florida and the demand that the CSO be invalidated and cruising to proceed immediately, I doubt that the Governor has any interest in participating in the CSO process.

It appears that the cruise lines do not either with their requests to just drop the order as well as their (Carnival CEO) comments about being disappointed with the technical document and indicating that they will also look into cruising out of other ports.

[morechances]

1 hour ago, wrk2cruise said:

Does anybody know if anyone in the FL government is helping the cruise lines with contingency planning which the CDC is looking for to assure that a ship returning to a FL port has the necessary medical facilities available without overloading the healthcare system of the FLL/MIA,  Tampa or PC areas?   It would seem that this is an area where the state, cruise lines and CDC could cooperate to find an acceptable solution.

And, perhaps, a vaccine passport?!?!!?

[81Zoomie]

30 minutes ago, cachouonacruise said:

To me it looks like a conflict of interests:

 

The CDC focuses mainly if not only on health issues, regardless of the economical impact.

 

The Florida Governor, is mainly, if not only concerned about the economic issues for him, his state, and his lobbying/fund raising groups.

 

Avid cruisers....just want to cruise and don’t want to take no for an answer...

 

Meanwhile, COVID is laughing.

 

In Ontario, the number of cases is exploding because of the impacts of the new variants. As a result, the province is back in lockdown.

 

In Quebec, we have smaller regions now exploding. These regions have a curfew, closures of non-essential businesses, schools, etc and, due to human exhaustion, not enough medical personnel to take care of a younger generation of people, showing up in hospitals and ICUs. We just lost a 16 year old and a very active healthy 40 year old man.

 

In Quebec, only about 20 percent of the population has received a first vaccination dose.....We’re still debating on the merits of Astra-Zeneca vaccine, mainly for its 

possible side effects on women.

 

It really saddens me to realize that our selfish conflict of interest seem to supersede the needed altruism and generosity required to beat COVID. No nation seems to take the lead on insuring international relief for Covid.... This is hurting an industry we all love: cruising. Since it is not a local or even national industry.

 

In conclusion, what’s the point of opening the port of Miami if the rest of the Caribbean countries and the world is infested with Covid? 

 

Food for thoughts.

Florida reported 7886 cases of COVID yesterday, the highest since mid Feb 2021.  
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/96dd742462124fa0b38ddedb9b25e429

[Oville]

Just curious, why do some of you have to weigh in on your political leanings on a thread like this while at the same time insult those who don’t agree?

Edited April 9, 2021 by Oville

[harkinmr]

This is certainly not helpful.  First the Governor files a lawsuit to demand a cruise restart and then announces that he will oppose a vaccine mandate and the cruise lines will not get an exemption under his vaccine passport order.

 

"The governor, who signed an executive order forbidding Covid vaccine passports, said the cruise industry won’t get an exception. He’s adamant that public entities, along with the private sector, not require people show proof that they have been vaccinated. 

 

Even if cruise lines wanted to move forward with a vaccine passport, DeSantis said he would oppose it."

 

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-suing-federal-government-cdc-to-allow-cruise-to-resume-sailing-desantis/2423966/

[K.T.B.]

40 minutes ago, Oville said:

Just curious, why do some of you have to weigh in on your political leanings on a thread like this while at the same time insult those who don’t agree?

 

Unfortunately, it is a political move by the governor.  However, regardless of what side of the aisle he's on (completely opposite of mine, by the way), I agree with what he's attempting to do.  He's trying to force the CDC to do something to actually help.  BUT his idiotic insistence on no "vaccine passport" will work against him and this lawsuit.  He's going to have to acquiesce if he wants a "win" here for Florida and cruising.  Also, the cruise lines ail need to do something as well, not just leave it up to the CDC.  They need to prove they're ready and that it's the CDC that's holding them back.

[Arizona Wildcat]

18 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Unfortunately, it is a political move by the governor.  However, regardless of what side of the aisle he's on (completely opposite of mine, by the way), I agree with what he's attempting to do.  He's trying to force the CDC to do something to actually help.  BUT his idiotic insistence on no "vaccine passport" will work against him and this lawsuit.  He's going to have to acquiesce if he wants a "win" here for Florida and cruising.  Also, the cruise lines ail need to do something as well, not just leave it up to the CDC.  They need to prove they're ready and that it's the CDC that's holding them back.

Agreements with hospitals in each large port in the US should not be difficult.  Smaller towns like Sitka AK have had agreements in place for years.  Cannot see that state government need be involved.

The "vaccine passport" is apparently regarding privacy issues in a database.  Have to laugh as each vaccination is already in a database somewhere - mostly county.

Would be good if all politicians were required to engage their brains before opening their mouths!

[rch3]

Don’t mistake the term “vaccine passport” and the federal bureaucratic oversight it connotes, with proof of vaccination. It is an entirely different thing for the government to require issuance of a health-based passport in order to travel, and private sector requirements for safe access to services. I don’t view the governor’s actions to be inconsistent.

 

Having said this, and being fortunate enough to have received my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine yesterday, my concern is with what the EU will require of U.S. citizens as we continue to rebook again and again.

[ChucktownSteve]

If the people who live outside of FL hate our Governor that much then why are so many moving here especially from NY, NJ & CA? We've experienced a flood of new refugees just over the past year!

 

I'd like to suggest the naysayers also never book cruises embarking a FL port. That will show him!

Edited April 9, 2021 by ChucktownSteve

[TeeRick]

I agree that this is a political move but so what really?  That is what a politician does.  Political moves.  

It is something that keeps the public pressure on the CDC to move forward.  That is what is needed IMO.

 

Are there any lawyers here with this type of experience that can actually comment on the validity of a state suing the federal government?  Type of success in the past with other suits?  Are most dismissed?  How long will this take?  Far beyond the end of the pandemic and then some?  Especially if it goes through appeals and to the US Supreme Court?  

[Oceangoer2]

Out of all of this conflict will come cooperation...discussion is good and at higher levels than a cruise message board, required.   We'll get there...but it would be nice if human kind could stop being 'right fighters'.  When we do get to sail again there will be inevitable blips;  in that event we want serious safeguards in place to handle them.  The cruise lines are directly affected if they sail too soon.  They actually ARE moving toward global sailing in a cautious manner with island embarkation ports.  The US ports will not be that far behind with vaccinations going up (although the virus numbers are also).  I'm patiently waiting for the right course of action, not the hasty one.  Does no good to blame Florida's govt. for pushing their ports' opening.  Neither does it help to blame the CDC for protecting cruisers and all others.  Each is doing what they need to do for those they were put in place to support.  IMO....we WILL get there...maybe not in the time-frame some of us want...but when we do sail, I'd like to feel confident I'll be sailing in a healthy environment, the ports will be welcoming, and it will all feel 'normal'.

[Crazy planning mom]

1 hour ago, ChucktownSteve said:

If the people who live outside of FL hate our Governor that much then why are so many moving here especially from NY, NJ & CA? We've experienced a flood of new refugees just over the past year!

 

I'd like to suggest the naysayers also never book cruises embarking a FL port. That will show him!

A governor usually serves 4-8 years.  Thats a silly reason not to move to a state.  Plus, just becausewe dont like your governor doesnt necessary mean we like ours either.  Everyone should stop the political arguments here.  Some of us are Republicans, some of us are Democrats, and some of us are independents.  However, we all love cruising and want it to restart!

[marieps]

20 hours ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

No one saw COVID coming as aggressively as it did and there's nothing preventing a similar situation from happening again. 

Are you saying there's been zero progress against the disease?  There's plenty to prevent Diamond Princess from happening again.  A vax requirement to start.  Mandatory testing for another.  testing hadn't even been developed when the DP broke out.   I disagree with your assertion.

[kpark895]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

.....

Are there any lawyers here with this type of experience that can actually comment on the validity of a state suing the federal government?  Type of success in the past with other suits?  Are most dismissed?  How long will this take?  Far beyond the end of the pandemic and then some?  Especially if it goes through appeals and to the US Supreme Court?  

If a state sues the federal government, in most situations the case goes directly to the U.S. Supreme Court.

[Ride-The-Waves]

12 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Great question!!!

Last March DeSantis refused to let a cruise ship with American COVID19 passengers moor at a Florida port.  Doesn't expect anything different.

[Ride-The-Waves]

Desantis has ordered FL businesses to not accept vaccination "passports."  Cruise lines have stated they will require proof of vaccination.  Looks like there will be no sailings from Florida ports.

[uspearls]

2 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Desantis has ordered FL businesses to not accept vaccination "passports."  Cruise lines have stated they will require proof of vaccination.  Looks like there will be no sailings from Florida ports.

The cruise lines are not FL businesses.

[ECCruise]

4 minutes ago, uspearls said:

The cruise lines are not FL businesses.

DeSantis has literally said that cruise lines were included in his "no proof of vaccination permitted" EO.