Desantis Says Cruise Lines Cannot Require Any Proof of Vaccine for Cruises out of Florida

[Wendy The Wanderer]

27 minutes ago, pingpong1 said:

I fear I'm (once again) standing on the very edge of a Rabbit Hole but......

 

How do we explain the fact that many states/cities that had rather lax/relaxed/non-mandated adherence to mask wearing had lower rates of infection and death....than some states/populations who treated mask wearing as a near "religious observance" and experienced much higher rates of infection/death?  Just wondering?

Numbers please?

[mrstanley]

Silversea has cruises this summer leaving from Antigua. 

[CruisetheCs]

1 hour ago, pingpong1 said:

I fear I'm (once again) standing on the very edge of a Rabbit Hole but......

 

How do we explain the fact that many states/cities that had rather lax/relaxed/non-mandated adherence to mask wearing had lower rates of infection and death....than some states/populations who treated mask wearing as a near "religious observance" and experienced much higher rates of infection/death?  Just wondering?

 

If you are contemplating going down a rabbit hole, I think it is probably a safe place without a mask if you are the only person in the rabbit hole.  If there is more than one person in the rabbit hole, I would recommend masks unless all have been vaccinated!

 

I also don't understand the opposition to some kind of official vaccination record.  I've had one of the old yellow colored records for years that has accompanied me around the world.  And as the debate about an official vaccine document goes on, apparently fake vaccination records are the latest scam https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/technology/vaccine-card-scam.html

 

I don't understand the opposition to vaccinations as a way of protecting oneself and others in the crowded environment of cruise ships.  I would like to get back to safe travel/cruising and vaccinations will be a crucial element in that. 

[Bellaggio Cruisers]

Still no answer from DeSantis... if he really means that cruise lines cannot require vaccine proof to board a ship in Florida, I will lead the campaign to defeat him. 
We need a clear answer now!

sheila

[pingpong1]

10 minutes ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

Numbers please?

No specific "numbers", but a lot of counter-opinions and evidence to the "masks-will-solve-our-problems" theory.  It's a constantly moving target.  Restrictions (some of which were clearly in violation of our U.S. Constitution - something no other country has), mandates, and "rules" have not all necessarily "worked" in keeping infection rates low.

 

 In March of 2020, Dr. Fauci was warning us all to definitely NOT wear masks!  Then that "all changed".  Today, we're told that the Vaccine will "now protect us" but we're also told (by the same people) "not to travel".  We're being told that "it's safe to be on a plane but not on a cruise ship". Huh?!

 

Policies (at least within in the U.S.) have slid and changed all over the place with no consistency or logic behind them.  And the "numbers" (rates of infections, hospitalizations, and/or deaths - certainly not all the same thing - have also fluctuated up and down, depending upon time of the year, which state, weather conditions, relative populations densities, etc.).  Michigan has had (and still has) consistently strict/rigid "mask laws"...even to the point (last year) of arresting a dad (with his young daughter) who were paddling a canoe by themselves in a sparsely populated lake/forest setting in northern Michigan, in "violation" of that state's travel restrictions. Draconian laws like that (in Michigan and other states) have not prevented them from having a higher rate of Covid infections (as a percentage of population) than Texas, which has had very few, relaxed, and "voluntary" mask mandates and virtually no restrictions on Constitutional liberties (right of assembly, right of travel, rights of association, etc.).  Most of us in the U.S. do not take those fundamental rights as a suggestion, or as a privilege, or as a favor, granted to us by our "wise leaders in Washington".

 

Should the "rules and restrictions" in place in Ontario or Quebec be "exactly the same" as for folks living in Manitoba?

 

After large mass gatherings like "spring break" in Florida, "Sturgis motorcycle rally", and the NFL Super-bowl, we did not "see" any corresponding expected/predicted spikes or surges in Covid deaths.  Very early on, California imposed strict mask-wearing and lock-down mandates for all public/private, outdoor/indoor gatherings, (which the governor himself violated), yet CA has had higher infection/death rates among that state's population than Florida has, which did not impose any of those severe restrictions on the residents.

 

My only point was that strictly enforced (including penalties), nation-wide mask mandates have not consistently or necessarily resulted in "equal outcomes", and in many cases have not even produced lower infection rates - either throughout the U.S., Canada, or in other countries.   

 

https://www.aier.org/article/the-cdcs-mask-mandate-study-debunked/

 

https://hotair.com/allahpundit/2021/03/26/scientists-wonder-texass-cases-still-going-reopened-everything-ended-mask-mandate-n381300

 

https://sentinelksmo.org/covid-cases-growing-faster-in-counties-with-mask-mandates/

 

https://www.heritage.org/public-health/report/mask-mandates-do-they-work-are-there-better-ways-control-covid-19-outbreaks

 

https://www.aier.org/article/lockdowns-and-mask-mandates-do-not-lead-to-reduced-covid-transmission-rates-or-deaths-new-study-suggests/

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/02/26/covid-19-vaccines-herd-immunity-pandemic-could-be-ending-column/6810858002/

 

https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/01/15/relying-on-lockdowns-social-distancing-and-masks-isnt-working-to-curb-covid-19/

 

https://www.jpost.com/health-science/could-wearing-a-mask-for-long-periods-be-detrimental-to-health-628400

 

[cwn]

Ping pong 1... I totally agree with what you said. 
My grandchildren went to summer camp last summer ( in TX) like they had for years and are going this summer. Our schools opened last fall. We have not locked ourselves away from family and we have traveled in our RV and just the car out of state just avoiding the places that had lock downs. Yes with a lot of sanitizer and common sense. Our children traveled out of the country during this past year also. Covid is real but so are a lot of other illnesses. My whole family except for the 15 year old have gotten the vaccine now. 

Enough of the fear mongering by the news media and the politicians . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Madeliner]

I don't think we need to get into numbers or if masks work or not.  I am assuming that most people on this board have known people who have been hit hard by COVID and perhaps even lost their lives.  I know I have.  But that is not the topic.  This is about getting ships back in business.  Can the Governor dictate to a private business on their own safety protocols?  I don't think he can or should.  I believe that the general public would feel better about booking a cruise if passengers and crew were all vaccinated.  I know I would. Let's please try to stay on topic.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Madeliner

[SWFLAOK]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:13 PM, Madeliner said:

DeSantis is a fool for this move.  I thought he was for less Government.  He has no business telling the private sector what requirements they choose to have their patrons follow whether it be cruising of a sports or concert venue.  What he does with Government entities is his business.  

 

As a traveler, I have a yellow passport proving that I have been vaccinated for yellow fever, hepatitis A and B, tetanus, etc.  As a parent, our kids are required to be vaccinated to attend school.  Immigrants coming into this country legally are required to have vaccines.

 

I think he just wants to see his name in the news more and he knows how to get attention and be controversial.  Unfortunately, he is hurting the cruise lines as well as sporting and concert venues who will not open to full audiences unless they are safe.  

 

If patrons choose not to get vaccinated, then it is their choice to not participate.  The Antivaxers need some incentive!  Otherwise, we will be waering masks for a much longer time than necessary.

 

I feel better getting that off my chest!  Is there a petition I can sign somewhere??

Politics aside, Madiliner, can you point me to the definition of a yellow passport? I wasn't able to find anything like this as a government issued passport in the US. We have a yellow fever card that documents our yellow fever vaccine. It's a once only vaccine, so the card is good for life. The other vaccines you mention aren't all once and done, so it seems very strange that you could get a "passport" of any type based on those. And why a tetanus vaccine would be required for admittance to any country, I don't know.  More information would be appreciated.

[JMARINER]

De Santis order is probably unenforceable.

 

""Dawn Meyers, a partner with the government and regulatory team at Miami-based Berger Singerman, last week said DeSantis likely has no authority under interstate law, international law or maritime law to bar cruise lines from requiring vaccinations unless cruise ships were merely traveling from one Florida port to another.

Jim Walker, a South Florida attorney who specializes in maritime law, accused DeSantis of wanting to “have his cake and eat it too” by calling for the CDC to allow cruise lines to resume operations while prohibiting cruise lines from requiring vaccinations. “Both of these issues are well outside the jurisdiction of a state governor,” he said recently.""

 

Link

J

[Pudgesmom]

21 minutes ago, JMARINER said:

De Santis order is probably unenforceable.

 

""Dawn Meyers, a partner with the government and regulatory team at Miami-based Berger Singerman, last week said DeSantis likely has no authority under interstate law, international law or maritime law to bar cruise lines from requiring vaccinations unless cruise ships were merely traveling from one Florida port to another.

Jim Walker, a South Florida attorney who specializes in maritime law, accused DeSantis of wanting to “have his cake and eat it too” by calling for the CDC to allow cruise lines to resume operations while prohibiting cruise lines from requiring vaccinations. “Both of these issues are well outside the jurisdiction of a state governor,” he said recently.""

 

Link

J

Sadly, his behavior could cause all the parties to end up in court for a long time. The big losers will be all of the people who want a safe and enjoyable cruise. 

[mrlevin]

4 minutes ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

Nice thought, but as a part-time Floridian, I wouldn't hold my breath! 😉

[Madeliner]

20 hours ago, SWFLAOK said:

Politics aside, Madiliner, can you point me to the definition of a yellow passport? I wasn't able to find anything like this as a government issued passport in the US. We have a yellow fever card that documents our yellow fever vaccine. It's a once only vaccine, so the card is good for life. The other vaccines you mention aren't all once and done, so it seems very strange that you could get a "passport" of any type based on those. And why a tetanus vaccine would be required for admittance to any country, I don't know.  More information would be appreciated.

Hi!  Here is info on the Yellow card (I called it a passport).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis.  Here is info ont he shots we got for S. Africa:  Yes, some vaccines are recommended or required for South Africa. The CDC and WHO recommend the following vaccinations for South Africa: hepatitis A, hepatitis B, typhoid, yellow fever, rabies, meningitis, polio, measles, mumps and rubella (MMR), Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis), chickenpox, shingles, pneumonia and influenza.

 

[mariners]

3 hours ago, mrlevin said:

Thank you for sharing this photograph.  I hope that my grandchildren will try to embrace other cultures, countries, etc. the same way.  Although there might be different opinions, if we want to be global citizens/travellers, we should all be prepared to do our best to show our respect for those countries we visit.  I cannot wait to get the vaccine so that I can return to India and hope to be on a Regent cruise when I do so!

[SWFLAOK]

3 hours ago, Madeliner said:

Hi!  Here is info on the Yellow card (I called it a passport).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis.  Here is info ont he shots we got for S. Africa:  Yes, some vaccines are recommended or required for South Africa. The CDC and WHO recommend the following vaccinations for South Africa: hepatitis A, hepatitis B, typhoid, yellow fever, rabies, meningitis, polio, measles, mumps and rubella (MMR), Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis), chickenpox, shingles, pneumonia and influenza.

 

Yes, as I said, that's a yellow card. It's not a passport. It's not associated with the government in any way. I'm in favor of making Covid vaccine similar to the yellow card for countries that require it.

For all of those other recommendations, there are no cards or passports to document them. Recommendations from CDC and WHO with no way to provide documentation of them, as everything else you've listed, are totally worthless as requirements for traveling. It's up to the traveler without any documentation needed. I can say that if I need all of those vaccines to safely visit South Africa, there's no chance I will ever go there. Is there a human vaccine for rabies? Rabies shots for humans are only given if you've been bitten by an animal that can't be confirmed to not have it.

[broberts]

On 4/13/2021 at 5:27 PM, pingpong1 said:

FDR was just on FOX TV within the past hour, giving an interview to Neil Cavuto.  This is his second appearance (on Fox) within the past 3 days and it seems to be a part of a pressure campaign to "up the ante" on the CDC.

 

FDR said he now has only 3 near term choices/alternatives left for NCLH at the moment.....Being able to sail in/out of US Waters; Moving embarkation/disembarkations/itineraries out of the US (including Miami) altogether; Or.....going bankrupt.

 

He went on to say that NCLH submitted its request/proposal to the CDC 8 days ago, to restart cruising in July and the plan included that everyone on the ship be vaccinated and that they would adhere to the 74 recommendations of the "Healthy Sail Panel", co-chaired by former FDA Commissioner Scott Gottleib, and form HHS Secretary Scott Levett, and yet,  "Still No Answer from the CDC".  FDR said that unlike a hotel or a restaurant...he has 3 things: A motor, propellers, and lots of water...and that he can move his ships to a lot of different places (that are) more welcoming than the US is at the moment.  He said that he's already announced that 3 of his ships will be operating out of Greece, the Dominican Republic, and Jamaica....and that later this month he'll be announcing additional vessels to be operating in foreign waters. 

 

He said the only choices he has (right now) is to leave the US...or to go bankrupt.  "$7 Billion was raised to "stay afloat" for the past 12 months and it's a lot of money, causing a lot of debt on our balance sheets and a lot dilution in value to our stockholders.  If we don't start operating soon...we're going to need a lot more capital.  So we're going to move our vessels to other places so that we can start operating again."

 

FDR finished by saying, "without the pandemic 33 million people would have cruised in the past year and 15 million of those people were Americans.  America is the largest cruise market, it's the most lucrative market, but it's not the only market.  We are prepared to go wherever the customers are and wherever we can safely operate."  He implied that "the ball is now in the CDC's court."   

 

It's all posturing. 

 

I do find support in these forums for foreign corporations to dictate terms to the United States somewhat surprising.

 

Of course the cruise lines are willing to adhere to the Healthy Sail Panel recommendations. They were written by and for the cruise lines.

[pingpong1]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

It's all posturing. 

 

I do find support in these forums for foreign corporations to dictate terms to the United States somewhat surprising.

 

Of course the cruise lines are willing to adhere to the Healthy Sail Panel recommendations. They were written by and for the cruise lines.

It's irrelevant whether the cruise lines themselves are "foreign corporations" (in a technical sense) or not. They are contribute $Millions in U.S. taxes. They normally and overwhelmingly operate in/out of the U.S waters....and account for up 50% of the entire worldwide cruising industry activity, by passenger loads alone.

 

According to CLIA, the suspension of cruising in the U.S. since March 2020 has (so far) caused the loss of over $32 Billion of U.S. economic activity and the loss of over 254,000 American jobs.  Every one of those jobs would normally be feeding employee's families, and contributing to our U.S. tax base.

 

This is not a "foreign issue".  It is having significant negative impacts on our own jobs, economy, and tourism activities.  It's not just the cruise lines themselves that are affected, but also the supporting cruise ports, terminal operations, vendors supplying all the ships, harbor pilots, water/fuel, airlines (bringing passengers to the ports), etc.

 

If sporting events, restaurants, hotels, theaters, and airlines are all now open and operating....why shouldn't "our cruise lines" also be open for business in the U.S., as well?

[broberts]

22 minutes ago, pingpong1 said:

It's irrelevant whether the cruise lines themselves are "foreign corporations" (in a technical sense) or not. They are contribute $Millions in U.S. taxes. They normally and overwhelmingly operate in/out of the U.S waters....and account for up 50% of the entire worldwide cruising industry activity, by passenger loads alone.

 

According to CLIA, the suspension of cruising in the U.S. since March 2020 has (so far) caused the loss of over $32 Billion of U.S. economic activity and the loss of over 254,000 American jobs.  Every one of those jobs would normally be feeding employee's families, and contributing to our U.S. tax base.

 

This is not a "foreign issue".  It is having significant negative impacts on our own jobs, economy, and tourism activities.  It's not just the cruise lines themselves that are affected, but also the supporting cruise ports, terminal operations, vendors supplying all the ships, harbor pilots, water/fuel, airlines (bringing passengers to the ports), etc.

 

If sporting events, restaurants, hotels, theaters, and airlines are all now open and operating....why shouldn't "our cruise lines" also be open for business in the U.S., as well?

 

It shouldn't be about the money. I see 560,000 dead Americans in 12 months. It's a pandemic, a medical emergency. Until it is truly under control it is pointless in my opinion to keep pursuing the restart of congregant activities. Prolonging the pandemic through early openings does no one any good.

 

254,000 American jobs, while important to the employees and their dependants is a drop in the bucket of those affected by the pandemic and mitigation practices.

[RobertTheBruce]

53 minutes ago, pingpong1 said:

It's irrelevant whether the cruise lines themselves are "foreign corporations" (in a technical sense) or not. They are contribute $Millions in U.S. taxes. They normally and overwhelmingly operate in/out of the U.S waters....and account for up 50% of the entire worldwide cruising industry activity, by passenger loads alone.

 

According to CLIA, the suspension of cruising in the U.S. since March 2020 has (so far) caused the loss of over $32 Billion of U.S. economic activity and the loss of over 254,000 American jobs.  Every one of those jobs would normally be feeding employee's families, and contributing to our U.S. tax base.

 

This is not a "foreign issue".  It is having significant negative impacts on our own jobs, economy, and tourism activities.  It's not just the cruise lines themselves that are affected, but also the supporting cruise ports, terminal operations, vendors supplying all the ships, harbor pilots, water/fuel, airlines (bringing passengers to the ports), etc.

 

If sporting events, restaurants, hotels, theaters, and airlines are all now open and operating....why shouldn't "our cruise lines" also be open for business in the U.S., as well?

Well stated! 

[loriva]

12 hours ago, SWFLAOK said:

Yes, as I said, that's a yellow card. It's not a passport. It's not associated with the government in any way. I'm in favor of making Covid vaccine similar to the yellow card for countries that require it.

For all of those other recommendations, there are no cards or passports to document them. Recommendations from CDC and WHO with no way to provide documentation of them, as everything else you've listed, are totally worthless as requirements for traveling. It's up to the traveler without any documentation needed. I can say that if I need all of those vaccines to safely visit South Africa, there's no chance I will ever go there. Is there a human vaccine for rabies? Rabies shots for humans are only given if you've been bitten by an animal that can't be confirmed to not have it.

 

There is a rabies vaccine for humans.  Here's the link to info from the CDC:  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/rabies.html.  It is not given routinely, but to those with the potential for contact with rabid animals.  Vets or those working in vet practices are one example, but spelunkers are also advised to get the vaccine.  The CDC also notes "International travelers who are likely to come in contact with animals in parts of the world where rabies is common and immediate access to appropriate care is limited" should consider the vaccine.

 

I received mine many years ago prior to a trip to Africa.  It is listed in my WHO international certificate of vaccination or prophylaxis aka yellow card.

 

[mj_holiday]

19 hours ago, Madeliner said:

Hi!  Here is info on the Yellow card (I called it a passport).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis.  Here is info ont he shots we got for S. Africa:  Yes, some vaccines are recommended or required for South Africa. The CDC and WHO recommend the following vaccinations for South Africa: hepatitis A, hepatitis B, typhoid, yellow fever, rabies, meningitis, polio, measles, mumps and rubella (MMR), Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis), chickenpox, shingles, pneumonia and influenza.

 

A little off thread, but will throw my experience into this.  Before going to the Amazon (and will do this for Africa also) we visited Passport Health and they gave us their recommendations for vaccines.  We got Yellow Fever vaccine there since it was not widely available. (Yellow Fever was required based on one of the port calls on the cruise)  We then asked our PCP what his recommendations were.  He gave us each  a script for Typhoid which is good for 5 years (injection only good for 2 years)  Passport Health advised us to add our other vaccines to the WHO yellow record.  Quite a few of the above recommended vaccine the "average" American has already had.  For Africa, unless our PCP recommends otherwise, probably wouldn't get the rabies or meningitis.

[Scout16]

As far as the vaccinations go, be sure to to let those who are telling you what is needed know what you are doing.  There is a big difference on what is needed if you live and eat on a cruise ship and just make limited trips off to living on shore with the local people away from the cities.  In February I was told that there was no current requirement for even Yellow Fever for the planned cruise up the Amazon in 2022, I am continuing to check with my doctor what is suggested.  

[2012_Alaska_bound]

11 minutes ago, Scout16 said:

As far as the vaccinations go, be sure to to let those who are telling you what is needed know what you are doing.  There is a big difference on what is needed if you live and eat on a cruise ship and just make limited trips off to living on shore with the local people away from the cities.  In February I was told that there was no current requirement for even Yellow Fever for the planned cruise up the Amazon in 2022, I am continuing to check with my doctor what is suggested.  

Scout16, the Yellow Fever vaccine was required in the past when the itinerary included Devils Island. Regent no longer includes this port on their Amazon itineraries.

[Wendy The Wanderer]

15 hours ago, mariners said:

Thank you for sharing this photograph.  I hope that my grandchildren will try to embrace other cultures, countries, etc. the same way.  Although there might be different opinions, if we want to be global citizens/travellers, we should all be prepared to do our best to show our respect for those countries we visit.  I cannot wait to get the vaccine so that I can return to India and hope to be on a Regent cruise when I do so!

 

Yes, we in Canada are a very multi-cultural country, and I'm proud that our prime minister celebrates many festivals originating in different parts of the world and religions.  (And I fail to see how that's relevant to Florida and De Santis.)

[Leisure Lady]

This virus is going to be with us for a long time. For some people it can be deadly. A cruise ship is a spreading ground. Vaccines and masks in public places, with distancing in food and beverage venues are what I need to feel comfortable sailing as age 75 cruiser.  I have the Celebrity Apex booked for Jan 2021, along with a 2 week pre-cruise Fort Lauderdale condo rental.  If I cancel my cruise, I cancel my condo, and many of us who cruise & travel to Florida in the winter feel the same way. If we can afford to travel to Florida, we can afford another state or Island that cares about our health over politics.

[Leisure Lady]

5 hours ago, Leisure Lady said:

This virus is going to be with us for a long time. For some people it can be deadly. A cruise ship is a spreading ground. Vaccines and masks in public places, with distancing in food and beverage venues are what I need to feel comfortable sailing as age 75 cruiser.  I have the Celebrity Apex booked for Jan 2021, along with a 2 week pre-cruise Fort Lauderdale condo rental.  If I cancel my cruise, I cancel my condo, and many of us who cruise & travel to Florida in the winter feel the same way. If we can afford to travel to Florida, we can afford another state or Island that cares about our health over politics.

Correction of date: I have the Celebrity Apex booked for Jan 2022