Carnival’s CEO states that they will not require vaccinations

[spiritkat090909]

13 hours ago, Cafedumonde said:

How do you block someone on cruise critic?

You hover your mouse over the name on a post on the left side. A window pops up with their join date and post count.  Under that are 3 small boxes. The middle one is 'ignore user'. Click on that...then check the boxes.

[harkinmr]

11 minutes ago, regoodwinjr said:

Legal precedents for vaccine mandates only exist for fully approved vaccines and right now the vaccines are only operating on an EUA authorizations so there is a question whether any mandate is legal. Also, current legal precedents for mandates only exist for state governments and as a condition for employment. None exists for businesses to require them for customers.  Norwegian wants the CDC to require vaccines so the federal government will be the one that has to defend it in court.

 

 

I did in fact say that mandates may be challenged.  Both Pfizer and Moderna will be filing for and receiving full approval within a few months.  Businesses may mandate any reasonable rules and regulations for patrons provided they are applied to all patrons and are not legally discriminatory.  Right now they can mandate a vaccine.  Will it be challenged?  Yes, likely.  Will the challenge be successful?  No one knows.

 

EDIT:  I still contend that Mr. Donald made an inaccurate and misleading statement.  It's painfully obvious that CCL wants the CDC to mandate vaccines because they are concerned about blow-back from their customers.  I think that is a clear indication that they may not be serious in their proposed plans to keep cruisers safe.  Mr. Donald also said that CCL "believes in personal liberty and personal freedom".  Will that concept be applied to cruisers who choose not to comply with other safety protocols?  Should be fun.  No thanks.

Edited April 16, 2021 by harkinmr

[latserrof]

Arnold is just posturing, preaching to the Carnival choir  and believers "in personal liberty and personal freedom" in order to keep those deposits rolling in until the CDC allows US cruising to resume.

[Elaine5715]

9 minutes ago, latserrof said:

Arnold is just posturing, preaching to the Carnival choir  and believers "in personal liberty and personal freedom" in order to keep those deposits rolling in until the CDC allows US cruising to resume.

Those believers are why we have personal liberty and freedom.  

[Robert & Debra]

29 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

Those believers are why we have personal liberty and freedom.  

How so?

[Jasonsterling]

5 hours ago, Jobeth66 said:

 

George Washington forced his troops to be vaccinated against smallpox.  What did Franklin have to say about that?  Or could you be misunderstanding his words and they're being taken sorely out of context?

 

"

WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means."

 

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century#:~:text=Benjamin Franklin once said%3A "Those who would give,of new technology and concerns about government surveillance.

Bravo! (insert sound of clapping here) I for one appreciate the fact you took the time to research this quote and provide a frame of context to it. Good job. I also like the historical reference to the forced mass vaccination that many people are not aware took place under the instruction of one of the founders of American liberty. Nice inclusion and sobering aspect to the overall considerations within this debate.  

[robc1972]

5 hours ago, harkinmr said:

Mr. Donald is being disingenuous.  All Americans will be eligible to receive a vaccine as of April 19th.  It is expected that there will be sufficient supplies of vaccine to vaccinate all Americans who want one by the beginning of June.  It is NOT "illegal" to mandate vaccines anywhere in the US at this time.  "We respect personal choice and personal liberty": so when Carnival mandates masks, social distancing, testing and contact tracing in order to avoid a vaccine requirement, will cruisers be able to cry personal choice and liberty to avoid those?  Should prove to be very interesting indeed.

All ADULTS will be eligible on Monday, children under 16 are still not.
 

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, Robert & Debra said:

How so?

Yep. Lots of people twist scripture, too.

[harkinmr]

9 minutes ago, robc1972 said:

All ADULTS will be eligible on Monday, children under 16 are still not.
 

Yes, and thank you for the clarification.  Vaccines are not approved for those under 16.  Children can easily be excluded from a vaccine requirement like Royal Caribbean is doing.  NCL on the other hand is not excluding any person unable to be vaccinated, including children.  

[jfunk138]

6 hours ago, Jobeth66 said:

 

George Washington forced his troops to be vaccinated against smallpox.  What did Franklin have to say about that?  Or could you be misunderstanding his words and they're being taken sorely out of context?

 

"

WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means."

 

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century#:~:text=Benjamin Franklin once said%3A "Those who would give,of new technology and concerns about government surveillance.

Ah yes, the famous Benjamin Wittes take in support of the surveillance state.  A little context shows it's not nearly as black and white as Wittes believes.  

"

However, even this small amount of context make’s Wittes’s argument seem faulty. Yes, he’s right, the main point of the letter was about taxation and money. But this particular section was NOT.

...

Franklin’s famous quote means pretty much exactly what we think it means.

"

https://www.leyadelray.com/2020/05/04/a-quote-in-context-what-did-franklin-really-think-about-liberty-and-safety/


 

[BlerkOne]

25 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Ah yes, the famous Benjamin Wittes take in support of the surveillance state.  A little context shows it's not nearly as black and white as Wittes believes.  

"

However, even this small amount of context make’s Wittes’s argument seem faulty. Yes, he’s right, the main point of the letter was about taxation and money. But this particular section was NOT.

...

Franklin’s famous quote means pretty much exactly what we think it means.

"

https://www.leyadelray.com/2020/05/04/a-quote-in-context-what-did-franklin-really-think-about-liberty-and-safety/


 

 

Perhaps more applicable to Covid is BF on public health...

 

In 1751, Pennsylvania statesman Benjamin Franklin (“the uber-Founding Father”) conspired with Philadelphia surgeon Thomas Bond to found the nation’s first public hospital, envisioning that it would provide free health care to the city’s “sick-poor” and even “diseased foreigners.” The colony’s taxpayers would foot the bill, but it would be to their benefit in the long run because making city-dwellers healthier could reduce poverty and prevent epidemics, and doctors could put experience gained in an urban hospital setting to use treating rural patients. Bond had seen the concept in action in Europe, where he had completed his medical training, and he convinced Franklin that it could work as well in Pennsylvania.  Here’s how Sullivan described the negotiations that followed:....

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/10/what-does-benjamin-franklin-have-to-do-with-obamacare/280735/

 

Be proactive, not reactive, and everyone benefits.

[BlerkOne]

[Luckiestmanonearth]

On 4/14/2021 at 2:32 PM, jfunk138 said:

Arnold Donald:  "we respect personal choice and personal liberty."

If he made a statement like this in 2019, people would cheer.  Now, it's controversial.  I for one support this statement in both 2019 and 2021.

Never believe or trust a person who’s name is made up of with two first names 

 

I think he’s making a big mistake

[BlerkOne]

7 minutes ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

Never believe or trust a person who’s name is made up of with two first names 

 

Sounds like another Benjamin Franklin quote.

[Cafedumonde]

14 hours ago, spiritkat090909 said:

You hover your mouse over the name on a post on the left side. A window pops up with their join date and post count.  Under that are 3 small boxes. The middle one is 'ignore user'. Click on that...then check the boxes.

Thanks!

[FSHLOT]

It's funny when people who got vaccinated say " I did the research!! ", problem is, they are the "Research".  Fact check that!!

[jean87510]

On 4/14/2021 at 8:55 PM, BlerkOne said:

None of the lockdowns were taken seriously by everyone which helped defeat the purpose. Masks are useful - we've already been around that bend in the river numerous times. If Americans would have followed a few simple instructions, we would be cruising now instead of whining about covid burnout.

they did follow instructions until they saw the many double standards last summer (protests without masks or worn incorrectly, a newsman visiting his Hampton home when supposed to be quarantining in NY, a congresswoman getting a haircut when her state was locked down...and on and on.  People were originally told 2 weeks.  Many of these people have to work out of their homes.  It was frustrating and angered many people to see the do as I say, not as I do attitudes of people in government, the media and scientists.  I completely understand the anger at the hypocrisy.  I would also say that at least in my area of the country, I really don't see anyone without masks and we have one of the highest covid rates (nj).  I see many people wearing 2.  My state has 25% total vaccinated which is 9th overall.  So why the high numbers?

Edited April 17, 2021 by jean87510

[cruiseracer]

On 4/14/2021 at 11:44 AM, Prismism said:

Arnold Donald's interview-

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-13/carnival-cruise-ccl-ceo-arnold-donald-on-covid-travel-restrictions

 

Makes complete sense. Masks should be optional, not control-mechanisms.

[BlerkOne]

Which cruise lines sailing today don't require masks, testing, social distancing, empty seats in theaters, etc? If you need to know why Americans aren't welcome on the cruise lines sailing now, look in the mirror. Or your neighbors mirror. It is a slippery slope civilized people know better than to go down.

[cruiseracer]

1 minute ago, BlerkOne said:

Which cruise lines sailing today don't require masks, testing, social distancing, empty seats in theaters, etc? If you need to know why Americans aren't welcome on the cruise lines sailing now, look in the mirror. Or your neighbors mirror. It is a slippery slope civilized people know better than to go down.

Um - what cruise lines are sailing today, mask or no mask? And there is no slippery slope for critical thinkers. 😉 

[BlerkOne]

3 minutes ago, cruiseracer said:

Um - what cruise lines are sailing today, mask or no mask? And there is no slippery slope for critical thinkers. 😉 

Cruising is global, like the pandemic. Open your eyes- there's a world out there and the US is just a small piece.

[cruiseracer]

28 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Cruising is global, like the pandemic. Open your eyes- there's a world out there and the US is just a small piece.

You asserted that cruise lines are sailing today, then when asked which lines were sailing today, you diverted. That's ok, we can move on.

 

Your narrative of mask-wearing and vaccinations for others than yourself is not about health or mortality rates - it's about control of others. I don't care if you wish to wear an oxygen-carrying, fully enclosed bodysuit with 17 masks and get every covid-vaccine available for your own protection when you cruise. That is your choice. 

 

If improving health and death rate reduction of others is/was your actual goal, you'd also advocate for behavior such as the elimination of second-hand smoke by others. (40,000 annual deaths in the U.S. alone by second hand smoking according to the CDC): 

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/index.htm#:~:text=Exposure to secondhand smoke causes,adults in the United States%3A&text=Secondhand smoke causes 7%2C333 annual deaths from lung cancer.&text=Secondhand smoke causes 33%2C951 annual deaths from heart disease.

 

So is your goal to reduce the death rate & improve the health of folks affected by the choices of others? (Such as second-hand smoking). Or does your agenda only involve the control of others through covid?

[BlerkOne]

11 minutes ago, cruiseracer said:

You asserted that cruise lines are sailing today, then when asked which lines were sailing today, you diverted. That's ok, we can move on.

 

The shorter answer is which cruise lines aren't sailing and that is any mass market lines from the US. Have you ever been on a cruise?

 

Then you deflect to smoking? *****? Let's continue with the slippery slope. The Don't Tread on Me minority is an odd bunch. Why not deflect to guns on cruise ships?

[jetsfan58]

5 hours ago, jean87510 said:

they did follow instructions until they saw the many double standards last summer (protests without masks or worn incorrectly, a newsman visiting his Hampton home when supposed to be quarantining in NY, a congresswoman getting a haircut when her state was locked down...and on and on.  People were originally told 2 weeks.  Many of these people have to work out of their homes.  It was frustrating and angered many people to see the do as I say, not as I do attitudes of people in government, the media and scientists.  I completely understand the anger at the hypocrisy.  I would also say that at least in my area of the country, I really don't see anyone without masks and we have one of the highest covid rates (nj).  I see many people wearing 2.  My state has 25% total vaccinated which is 9th overall.  So why the high numbers?

We can't forget that this all started with those infamous words "It's Only A Hoax".  

[bitemyfly]

17 minutes ago, jetsfan58 said:

We can't forget that this all started with those infamous words "It's Only A Hoax".  

Was that before the WHO tweet on 1/14 ‘Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China🇨🇳.“