Cruising Without a Vaccination

[broberts]

27 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

The problem is that the cost of labor should not get too close to the revenue that labor produces.  In the present situation the unemployment compensation - a good part of it not taxable as income (totally absurd to give such a benefit) is so generous that there is insufficient incentive to seek paid employment (all of it taxable).

 

The pool of low-end workers - largely the source of restaurant staff - is happier with government benefits than they would be with the economically practical salaries restaurants (which typically operate on very narrow margins) could pay.

 

Free enterprise has zero chance competing with the Federal government in the context of low-to-moderate income.

 

We only have unsubstantiated claims that the cost of labor would get to close to revenue. Forgive me for being cynical, but I do not trust business owners to honestly represent the true state of margins. After all they have a vested interest in supressing the cost of labor.

 

As a general rule I agree that business cannot compete with government. But what is effectively a $15/hr minimum wage does not strike me as outrageous. What I do think unreasonable is the expectation that a full time worker can survive in pandemic conditions on $350-400 a week.

 

Restaurants do not operate on narrow margins. Far from it.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by broberts

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

We only have unsubstantiated claims that the cost of labor would get to close to revenue. Forgive me for being cynical, but I do not trust business owners to honestly represent the true state of margins. After all they have a vested interest in supressing the cost of labor.

 

As a general rule I agree that business cannot compete with government. But what is effectively a $15/hr minimum wage does not strike me as outrageous. What I do think unreasonable is the expectation that a full time worker can survive in pandemic conditions on $350-400 a week.

 

Restaurants do not operate on narrow margins. Far from it.

 

 

 

 

Then why do more than 40% of restaurants fail in the first year - and 80% in four years.

 

Also, why were restaurants able to fully staff two years ago and not be able to do so now - at higher minimum wages?  Do you think that, just maybe, generous unemployment compensation - much of it tax free - is preferred over taxable work-related compensation- which requires showing up and paying the travel costs of getting there?

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

Restaurants do not operate on narrow margins. Far from it.

My personal experience is quite to  the contrary. Restaurant margins are so thin that the slightest downturn can threaten their solvency.

 

Of all the customers of our former family-owned wholesale food distributing business, our restaurant customers, even those that appeared successful on the surface, went out of business far more frequently  than our other clients. So much so that my father often toyed with the idea of requiring restaurants to be cash-on-delivery accounts. He never did that because no restaurant would agree to those terms...they all wanted credit and many were slow to pay...so we had no choice but to take the risk of their going belly up.

[slidergirl]

15 hours ago, Sky616 said:

Lazy and selfish who are sitting on all that unemployment and not getting a job when there are millions of jobs available.

Let's see:  the local paper mill in town just shut down, leaving hundreds unemployed.  Other than stone quarry, it was the primary employer in a town of 3,000 in the middle of farm country in South Central PA.  Where do propose these people, most in their 40s-60s, go for work???  
I'd stay on unemployment if it meant I didn't have to be front-facing with lazy and selfish peope who refuse to protect themselves and others.  

 

It's not just restaurants which have problems hiring; hospitality has issues, also.  Hotels don't pay very much, either.  Right now, several hotels in town are hiring, but the pay starts at $11/hr.  And, we know that health & safety corners are being cut because of the lack of staff.  

 

Sure, some will stay on UE because it pays, but many either stay on because they have children who virtual school (and with summer coming up, the usual camps may not be available), do not want to put their health in jeopardy, cannot actually find a position within their field and do not want to have to become a checker at WalMart.

 

I won't go near a ship, especially if it is ported in Florida... 

Edited May 8, 2021 by slidergirl

[broberts]

39 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Then why do more than 40% of restaurants fail in the first year - and 80% in four years.

 

Also, why were restaurants able to fully staff two years ago and not be able to do so now - at higher minimum wages?  Do you think that, just maybe, generous unemployment compensation - much of it tax free - is preferred over taxable work-related compensation- which requires showing up and paying the travel costs of getting there?

 

Many reasons for restaurant failure, not the least of which is the fact that so many people without knowledge, training, or experience want to own a restaurant. Add to that the high capital costs for entry which typically means that many entrants are insufficiently funded. It is also a very competitive business and customer tastes determine sales. The store selling the least expensive hamburger will not necessarily sell the most. (The general rule of thumb is hourly gross labor is 15% - 20% of gross sales. Hardly the most significant operating cost area.)

 

I think the principal reason for labor shortages in hospitality at the moment is the pandemic and all the issues surrounding. Lack of in class schooling, home situations that include high risk members, lack of paid sick leave, and on again off again mandated closures being a few. There is also a higher than necessary fear factor which isn't helped by the massive amount of misinformation making the rounds.

 

No doubt some people chose to stay at home and accept available assistance rather than take work at a higher risk and currently lower wage. But to suggest that the solution is to force them to work is counter productive. It may temporarily enrich a few business owners but will likely lead to more cases and extend the pandemic conditions.

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by broberts

[Pizzasteve]

Interesting staw men being built and burned down, but let's get back to the topic?  

 

People seem to have these 'idiology based theories' bordering on religious fervor about the working poor being lazy and deserving their fate, most of which stems from racism, and a lack of really ever interacting with any.  Ask them to cite the name of a person they know who fits their stereotype...and there will be crickets.  Anyway, so far off topic...

Edited May 9, 2021 by Pizzasteve

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, Pizzasteve said:

People seem to have these 'idiology based theories' bordering on religious fervor about the working poor being lazy and deserving their fate, most of which stems from racism, and a lack of really ever interacting with any.  

 

Those stereotypes also stop people getting employed. So often I have seen rejected applications because the suburb was not to the employer's liking🙄.  Knew one person who "borrowed" an address of a wealthier area and after months of hearing nothing got four job offers in one week😕. Fake it till you make it😜. 

[Joebucks]

On 5/7/2021 at 11:03 PM, broberts said:

 

Usually when there is a supply problem businesses are willing to pay more. For some reason this behavior does not seem to apply when labor is in short supply. 

 

If employers are having trouble securing employees the obvious solution is to offer better pay and employment conditions. Is that not how free enterprise is supposed to function?

 

Wages HAVE gone up. They've been going up for years. It may be hard to comprehend, but there's a "cap" on pay to the point where it doesn't make sense operating anymore. You can't run some facilities with half as a many heads, making twice as much.

 

22 hours ago, broberts said:

As a general rule I agree that business cannot compete with government. But what is effectively a $15/hr minimum wage does not strike me as outrageous. What I do think unreasonable is the expectation that a full time worker can survive in pandemic conditions on $350-400 a week.

 

While this debate can go on for hours, 80% of Americans make more than $350 per week. That's under $9 an hour. You can literally walk into any big retail company these days and start at $15. "Surviving in pandemic conditions" is a victim statement. No one is trying to start a life, making $350 per week. 

 

20 hours ago, broberts said:

I think the principal reason for labor shortages in hospitality at the moment is the pandemic and all the issues surrounding. Lack of in class schooling, home situations that include high risk members, lack of paid sick leave, and on again off again mandated closures being a few. There is also a higher than necessary fear factor which isn't helped by the massive amount of misinformation making the rounds.

 

Spoken like someone who has no knowledge of what is going on. Ask anyone who manages or even works in some of these industries. Employees are literally admitting that they would rather collect unemployment. Why is this even a discussion? Is anyone surprised people would stay at home if they could still collect similar money?

 

At the end of the day, the leeches have and will continue to not work. Before it was "there are no jobs". Now it's "I don't want those jobs". All while the high morality virtue signalers look for every excuse to defend them. 

[broberts]

13 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

Wages HAVE gone up. They've been going up for years. It may be hard to comprehend, but there's a "cap" on pay to the point where it doesn't make sense operating anymore. You can't run some facilities with half as a many heads, making twice as much...

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

[ilikeanswers]

44 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

At the end of the day, the leeches

 

Don't knock leeches their good for you😜

 

What Is Leech Therapy?

[jtwind]

Trying to get back on topic.....

 

I'm surprised that it seems that the majority of people on this forum seem to think that the cruise lines themselves have nothing to do with the fact that there are no cruises out of the US at this point.  Folks seem to think that, if it hadn't been for the CDC, cruises would have continued throughout the pandemic.  I personally feel that the cruise lines were not interested in sailing until they could fill the ships with vaccinated people.

[slidergirl]

I want to say this and then I'll move on...

 

I had posted this: 

"Let's see:  the local paper mill in town just shut down, leaving hundreds unemployed.  Other than stone quarry, it was the primary employer in a town of 3,000 in the middle of farm country in South Central PA.  Where do propose these people, most in their 40s-60s, go for work???  
I'd stay on unemployment if it meant I didn't have to be front-facing with lazy and selfish peope who refuse to protect themselves and others.  "

 

Someone laughed at this.  Kind of sad that someone would laugh at a real-life situation for hundreds of people in Blair County, PA, who lost their jobs at a plant that has hired generations of the locals.  

 

I agree with jtwind that the cruise ships would not have continued sailing during the pandemic.  They already had enough horrible press with the ships that had COVID onboard and could not port anywhere, I don't think they wanted any more of that.   Knowing how quickly viruses move through ships (think noro) and how some people will lie about their condition (think noro), I don't think the potential revenue was worth it.  With noro, they'd still finish voyages and then do a thorough cleaning and go back out and hope noro doesn't show up again for awhile.  They could not do that with COVID.  

[Joebucks]

20 hours ago, broberts said:

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

 

You almost have to go out of your way to find to find a 3 year old article that states wages haven't moved.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/business/economy/wage-growth-economy.html

[Keksie]

18 hours ago, slidergirl said:

I want to say this and then I'll move on...

 

I had posted this: 

"Let's see:  the local paper mill in town just shut down, leaving hundreds unemployed.  Other than stone quarry, it was the primary employer in a town of 3,000 in the middle of farm country in South Central PA.  Where do propose these people, most in their 40s-60s, go for work???  
I'd stay on unemployment if it meant I didn't have to be front-facing with lazy and selfish peope who refuse to protect themselves and others.  "

 

 

 

 

They would do what a single mother did when she was in her 40s and lost her job.  She took 2 jobs one front-facing and worked hard, showed up on time and made herself a valued employee such that one of the two jobs became full time, paid well and had great benefits.  If I had stayed home on unemployment I never would have gotten the job that provided a good life until I retired.  When I was younger the factory I worked in closed and I ended up moving to a place I could get a job.  A front-facing employee today should get vaccinated and then they don't have to worry about all those lazy selfish people you seem to know.

[davekathy]

On 4/29/2021 at 9:00 PM, grandpalarry777 said:

Does anyone know if any cruise lines will allow a person who cannot take the Covid vaccine due to health conditions to get an exemption from the "vaccinated only" cruise rules if they have a negative test?

Hopefully the cruise lines will make it mandatory that everyone needs to be vaccinated no matter their age or medical condition in order to cruise.  

[Sky616]

On 5/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, davekathy said:

Hopefully the cruise lines will make it mandatory that everyone needs to be vaccinated no matter their age or medical condition in order to cruise.  

Hopefully not

[Heidi13]

On 5/10/2021 at 8:17 AM, davekathy said:

Hopefully the cruise lines will make it mandatory that everyone needs to be vaccinated no matter their age or medical condition in order to cruise.  

 

If any cruise lines doesn't require mandatory vaccinations, we can only hope that the countries visited require proof of vaccinations, which will force the cruise lines.

 

Nothing new, as many countries required various vaccinations back in the 60's & 70's. Used to get boosters every 6 months.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Heidi13

[Zach1213]

8 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

If any cruise lines doesn't require mandatory vaccinations, we can only hope that the countries visited require proof of vaccinations, which will force the cruise lines.

 

Nothing new, as many countries required various vaccinations back in the 60's & 70's. Used to get boosters every 6 months.

 

I travel for a living, and I am an avid visitor of African countries. My list of vaccines, including things like Yellow Fever and now Covid, are always with me when I leave the country...my travel patterns are so erratic, it's not crazy to be sitting comfortably in France and then suddenly find myself needing (or wanting) to head to Africa without a chance to go home and get paperwork.

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, Zach1213 said:

 

I travel for a living, and I am an avid visitor of African countries. My list of vaccines, including things like Yellow Fever and now Covid, are always with me when I leave the country...my travel patterns are so erratic, it's not crazy to be sitting comfortably in France and then suddenly find myself needing (or wanting) to head to Africa without a chance to go home and get paperwork.

 

Although I am now retired, I still maintain a vaccination record and never travel without it. Just never know when it might be required, especially post-COVID.