NCL may pull out of Florida over DeSantis' rules forbidding proof of vaccination

[drew69]

https://thepointsguy.com/news/norwegian-could-pull-ships-from-florida/

 

Good!!!  

[DCGuy64]

Well here's where I think DeSantis is dead wrong. Cruise ships are a lot of things, but public accommodations ain't one of them. That's like saying a private golf course is the same as a public park. Nuh-uh...

 

“We would object to it,” DeSantis said at a press event last month in response to a question from a reporter about vaccine mandates for cruise ships. “What if you have a reason for why you didn’t get vaccinated? You then can’t participate in society like everybody else? These [cruise ships] are basically public accommodations, and to have different classes of citizens based on vaccine status, I think is a big, big mistake.”

 

 

[Stallion]

[graphicguy]

22 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Well here's where I think DeSantis is dead wrong. Cruise ships are a lot of things, but public accommodations ain't one of them. That's like saying a private golf course is the same as a public park. Nuh-uh...

 

“We would object to it,” DeSantis said at a press event last month in response to a question from a reporter about vaccine mandates for cruise ships. “What if you have a reason for why you didn’t get vaccinated? You then can’t participate in society like everybody else? These [cruise ships] are basically public accommodations, and to have different classes of citizens based on vaccine status, I think is a big, big mistake.”

 

 

Agree.

 

Restaurants can keep you from entering without shoes and shirts.  City ordinances can keep you from smoking inside buildings.  Cruise lines can keep you from sailing for a variety of reasons, just like if you show up at the pier with obvious flu symptoms, or in this case, without proof of a COVID Vaccine.

 

A cruise is not a publicly controlled transportation device.

 

You can be refused entrance to any public sports arena, concert, etc if you do not comply to the T's & C's on the ticket stub.

 

I agree.  DeSantis has become so twisted in what he's said and what he's doing, he can't find a gracious way to untangle himself, so he keeps saying and doing things he has no influence or jurisdiction over.  He's turned into yet another power grabbing/hungry alleged public servant.

 

Instead of cooperating with the cruise lines' edicts and their desire to sail as safe as possible, he's throwing up road blocks.

 

[Stallion]

 

Note Del Rio's attorneys are advising him:

 

“It’s a classic state vs. federal government issue,” Del Rio said on the call when asked about the issue by a Wall Street analyst. “Legally, lawyers believe the federal law applies and not state law.”

[Stallion]

under federal law I think all those things are "public accommodations" which simply means you offer an accommodation to the public for profit. The term generally means that if you offer such public accommodation to the public for profit (within the jurisdiction of the United States) then you can't unreasonably deny service based upon a prohibited classification (or protected category) (race, color, national origin, religion, sex, age, or disability-sometime sexual orientation.). A ship subject to United States jurisdiction would seem to be a public accommodation assuming another federal law doesn't preempt such law

 

Of course, you can reasonably discriminate if the restriction is not concerning one of the above listed prohibited classifications 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Stallion

[harkinmr]

11 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Agree.

 

Restaurants can keep you from entering without shoes and shirts.  City ordinances can keep you from smoking inside buildings.  Cruise lines can keep you from sailing for a variety of reasons, just like if you show up at the pier with obvious flu symptoms, or in this case, without proof of a COVID Vaccine.

 

A cruise is not a publicly controlled transportation device.

 

You can be refused entrance to any public sports arena, concert, etc if you do not comply to the T's & C's on the ticket stub.

 

I agree.  DeSantis has become so twisted in what he's said and what he's doing, he can't find a gracious way to untangle himself, so he keeps saying and doing things he has no influence or jurisdiction over.  He's turned into yet another power grabbing/hungry alleged public servant.

 

Instead of cooperating with the cruise lines' edicts and their desire to sail as safe as possible, he's throwing up road blocks.

 

This.  Well said.

[jrapps]

Seems NCL has 3 options. Do test sailings, move their ships out of FL, or just go ahead and proceed in FL and call the governor's bluff.

 

I wonder if FL would actually sue a cruise line over it. I don't think we'll get to the point to find out, but I really wonder if he has the guts to do it.

[DCGuy64]

8 minutes ago, Stallion said:

 

Note Del Rio's attorneys are advising him:

 

“It’s a classic state vs. federal government issue,” Del Rio said on the call when asked about the issue by a Wall Street analyst. “Legally, lawyers believe the federal law applies and not state law.”

Which is what you've been arguing all along. I have to wonder if some of DeSantis's bravado isn't just because he's looking to move up in terms of his political future. And I have no idea how much power the cruising segment has in terms of Florida's political structure, but I hope he finds a way to get himself out of this. There's a win/win here somewhere but I'm not sure what it is.

[DCGuy64]

16 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

he can't find a gracious way to untangle himself,

The French language has a wonderful way of describing how to get oneself out of a sticky situation and end up looking good. It's called "se démerder," which means to get yourself out of a certain foul-smelling substance. 💩

[PTC DAWG]

7 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I have to wonder if some of DeSantis's bravado isn't just because he's looking to move up in terms of his political future. And I have no idea how much power the cruising segment has in terms of Florida's political structure, but I hope he finds a way to get himself out of this. There's a win/win here somewhere but I'm not sure what it is.

I like the guy, I never agree with anyone on everything, and I don't agree with him here.  Not sure what's he trying to accomplish with this move.  

[jrapps]

7 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

There's a win/win here somewhere but I'm not sure what it is.

Hmmm...very difficult to see

 

Cruise Ships move out of FL, and Desantis gets to keep his ban intact? win-win for cruisers and the governor (loss for FL economy)

 

Cruise ships sail from FL, and the ban get's overturned as unconstitutional. win-win for cruisers and economy, loss for governor

 

Cruise ships do test cruises from FL and then sail. win-win for cruisers and Desantis, loss for democracy? LOL, maybe a loss for economy since it will take longer to sail.

 

I don't see a win-win-win possible here. 

 

 

[Navis]

Some of us have been pointing to this as the likely outcome since the “no proof of vaccine” law was first proposed. Maybe now our educated position will be given more credence.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Navis

[DCGuy64]

2 minutes ago, jrapps said:

I don't see a win-win-win possible here. 

I don't see one, either. YET.

I think it's wise to be cautious. Last year there were PLENTY of folks saying cruising was finished for 2020. And then the MSC Grandiosa started sailing on August 16, 2020.

Lots of folks have been saying there wouldn't be any US sailings until at LEAST November 1, 2021. And now the CDC has said it's possibly we could see them in July.

My point? Just because we don't see a solution right now, doesn't mean there isn't one. Be patient and let's see what happens.

[embarkation75]

This was an easily predictable outcome once DeSantis dug his heels in on his stupid law. Good for NCL!

[jrapps]

14 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I don't see one, either. YET.

So here is the ONLY thought I can come up with. Every rule has a loophole, right?

 

The law in question sates "prohibiting a business entity from requiring patrons or customers to provide documentation certifying vaccination against or recovery from COVID-19;"

 

The key here is how you interpret "require". Is that all or nothing? If say a cruise line said ANYONE can book a cruise, vaccinated or not, but they have rooms for those with vaccines, and rooms for those without vaccines. (oh and coincidentally the rooms for sale for non-vaccinated people add up to 5% of the ship)

 

Those 5 % sold out? Oops, sorry your desired stateroom is sold out.

 

Now I say this all in jest, but maybe someone with real legal expertise can comment here. If you were to say that non-vaccinated people can come (even if its only 5%) does that mean that you aren't "requiring" it?

[DCGuy64]

I read through the governor's executive order yesterday and there's already a loophole, but I think he did himself no favors by taking on the industry. Since the cruise industry is important to the state, I wouldn't want to p*** them off.

[jrapps]

Just now, DCGuy64 said:

I read through the governor's executive order yesterday and there's already a loophole, but I think he did himself no favors by taking on the industry. Since the cruise industry is important to the state, I wouldn't want to p*** them off.

I feel like the CEOs of the cruise companies and the governor are friends (or at least political acquaintances) so that might complicate this, but I wonder if NCL or another cruise company would just proactively sue the state arguing the law is unconstitutional, or at a minimum has no jurisdiction on cruises  Just get an answer to the legality of this once and for all so we can just move beyond it. All this it is vs it isn't legal posturing is just too much.

[Stallion]

The cruise lines could preemptively file suit and ask for declaratory relief, but why should they? They also could simply announce their plans for vaccine verification under CDC recommendations  and plan to set sail. Make DeSantis file suit for injunctive relief to stop the cruise lines which would be extremely unappetizing for his political career. Would he really attempt to stop cruising in Florida? 

[harkinmr]

33 minutes ago, embarkation75 said:

This was an easily predictable outcome once DeSantis dug his heels in on his stupid law. Good for NCL!

And the guy graduated from Harvard Law School.  He must have missed his constitutional law class.  

[drew69]

31 minutes ago, Stallion said:

The cruise lines could preemptively file suit and ask for declaratory relief, but why should they? They also could simply announce their plans for vaccine verification under CDC recommendations  and plan to set sail. Make DeSantis file suit for injunctive relief to stop the cruise lines which would be extremely unappetizing for his political career. Would he really attempt to stop cruising in Florida? 

Agreed.  They should ignore him, require the proof of vaccination and leave him to figure out his next steps and how to not look like the idiot he is for starting the problem.

[graphicguy]

2 hours ago, jrapps said:

Seems NCL has 3 options. Do test sailings, move their ships out of FL, or just go ahead and proceed in FL and call the governor's bluff.

 

I wonder if FL would actually sue a cruise line over it. I don't think we'll get to the point to find out, but I really wonder if he has the guts to do it.

NCL has already started plans to sail out of Jamaica.  So, they're keeping with their 100% COVID Vaccine requirement and bypassing embarkation in FL.  They're sailing without compromising.

[Navis]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

And the guy graduated from Harvard Law School.  He must have missed his constitutional law class.  

That’s the thing about HLS (and HBS actually). It is a fascinating place to study ... on any given day someone will make a comment or respond to a question with such insight that you have no idea how you have any business being in the same class as them. Then, almost immediately, someone will open their mouth with the least intelligent thing you have ever heard and you wonder how in God’s green Earth they ever got into HLS.

 

Rest assured, although we can’t disavow their degrees, they are some of the least popular members of the Harvard Club. When they show up they are mostly ignored or chastised in a uniquely Harvard way. 

 

[Trimone]

Remember politicians are in it for themselves not the voters...

[Torence]

I just don't get DeSantis actions; there seems to be no upside to what he is doing.  Even in so called "normal times", pre-pandemic, flus could spread very easily on a cruise ship.  Its in NCL's best interest, financial and otherwise, to take steps to protect their customers and employees.  Requiring covid vaccines seems to be a effective way of doing it. DeSantis preventing cruise lines from doing this just seems foolish and short sighted.  If he gets his way and ships sail without the vaccine requirement, how long will it be until another outbreak occurs?  One or two more Dimond / Grand Princess debacles could deliver a severe blow to the cruise industry.  They may never recover from it.

My guess is that like a lot of laws lately, someone or some cruise line will challenge it in court.   I don't have a legal background, but I think most lawyers would want be challenging this law rather than defending it in court.