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NCL may pull out of Florida over DeSantis' rules forbidding proof of vaccination


drew69
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9 hours ago, CI66774 said:

No, it’s about medical privacy. The issue is not nearly as simplistic and devoid of nuance as you seem to think.

🤣  That's pure BS..... I assure you it's NOT about medical privacy. I've travelled all of the place and have had to show my vaccine book a dozen times or more. 

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4 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

Just because you post as an alleged lawyer that you believe it’s wrong without any evidence doesn’t mean anything.

 

They are free to sail out of another state if they wish, and once in international waters, are not governed by the laws of Florida

 

i rest my case your honor

Regarding Florida........from where I sit, that fact does not help the situation. Passengers embark on land and that land is in Florida. It is on land that passengers must show proof of vaccination.

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12 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

That's pure BS..... I assure you it's NOT about medical privacy. I've travelled all of the place and have had to show my vaccine book a dozen times or more. 

Correct.  Has nothing at all to do with privacy!   It does not in any way show that you have a condition.  It does shows that you are reasonably well protected from getting a particular condition.....one that could harm the rest of us.  It is no more a privacy issue than me having to show my driver's' license every time I want to buy a beer (although I'm 78 and bald).  Our state mandates that.  In fact, my drivers license divulges more abut me than your vaccination card does.  Saying it is a privacy issue makes a person sound silly...in my mind.  

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4 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

Just because you post as an alleged lawyer that you believe it’s wrong without any evidence doesn’t mean anything.

 

They are free to sail out of another state if they wish, and once in international waters, are not governed by the laws of Florida

 

i rest my case your honor

You want my Board of Bar Overseers number? The “evidence” is roughly 200 or so SCOTUS decisions of federal preemption.

 

But none of that matters, because I think we are basically saying the same thing. In international waters, of course FL law on these matters is irrelevant, but my point is that Federal law trumps FL regardless of the ship’s position .. even when at the dock in FL

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1 hour ago, jrapps said:

He wants to run for president one day. That is his upside. As long as he is coming across to his base as defending rights, even in the face of economic ruin, he can spin that message. Short term he may want cruising in FL again for the economic win, but even if they all leave, he is betting that it doesn't impact his chances in FL all that much and it gives him more prominence nationwide for standing up to the overreach of the Biden administration (aka CDC)

Conservatives want less government control. Right? Isn't that the inherent philosophy of conservatives? Well, from where I sit, De Santis is doing just the opposite by imposing government control over businesses. That is the opposite of conservative philosophy. Let businesses run their companies THEIR way and let businesses make their own rules and policies. 

 

That is how I see it. Am I way off base with this?

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1 minute ago, coffeebean said:

Conservatives want less government control. Right? Isn't that the inherent philosophy of conservatives? Well, from where I sit, De Santis is doing just the opposite by imposing government control over businesses. That is the opposite of conservative philosophy. Let businesses run their companies THEIR way and let businesses make their own rules and policies. 

 

That is how I see it. Am I way off base with this?

At the risk of this delving too much into the politics of it, Politics stopped being about conservative or democratic values. It's all about posturing, political theater, and fear. Say and do whatever you need to to get elected, not what is core to your principles.

 

With regard to how this all affects NCL (the topic of this thread), many have pointed out that the CEO has said July is out. Part of that is due to the CDC, part of it is due to the time it takes to crew up, and part of that is due to the politics in FL. At this time (and unless any lawsuits change things) the CDC rules are there, aren't going to change until the CDC changes them. That is locked in stone. Crewing up is crewing up. That will take as long as it takes, very little you can do to speed that up especially if you are vaccinating all crew. It just takes time.

 

The only variable in this is which port do you sail out of. If one port (or state) lets you cruise revenue cruises sooner, then the proper BUSINESS decision is to sail out of that port. Period.

 

NCL is a business. They want to make their shareholders money. The way things stand TODAY, to do that does not include FL.

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NCL's Del Rio and Florida Governor DeSantis, IMO, are playing chess "together and in concert" in an attempt to get the current federal administration and the CDC to take the cruise lines side against Florida promoting cruising with vaccine restricted cruises.

 

Again, IMO.

 

Currently, NCL publicly stated it can't even ready a ship and crew now until some time in August.  It is May 7th.  There is a lot of time, almost 3 months, for this to play out.

 

I personally do agree with vaccine passports as a requirement for most activities, however, I do agree with proof of vaccination for the resumption of cruises on restricted cruises.  At the same time, on a fully 100% vaccinated crew and passenger restricted cruise, I see no sense in the requirement to social distance (especially on open air decks) and wear masks (although optionally is fine).

 

We'll see. 

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3 hours ago, Laszlo said:

NCL has sent scouting teams to Savannah and Charelston to look for new and permanent terminals 

Savannah?? Yay! That’s the closest port to the Atlanta area where I live. Right now the closest port of embarkation is Mobile. I’ve always wondered why Savannah hasn’t been developed as a possible embarkation point considering how close it is to a large metropolitan area. Huge cargo ships already go there. Why couldn’t a passenger terminal be built? 

Edited by Tapi
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Ultimately, if the CDC hadn't made it so difficult for cruising to restart, NCL never would have made a vaccine mandate. Then it wouldn't have mattered what DeSantis did. 

 

I understand that DeSantis wants people to be free and not be controlled by any vaccine mandates, but he should be trying to find a way to encourage people to get vaccinated. 

 

If NCL leaves Florida, it will only be temporary. Too many people enjoy cruising out of Florida, and the new terminal hasn't even been used yet. I would be excited to cruise out of Charleston though. I have family there that would enjoy cruising with us, and their guest room is ready for a pre-cruise stay 😃

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What about people with underlying medical issues for who the vaccine may be detrimental? Also the fact that long term affects have not been proven yet. I have mixed opinion on this issue. Anyone with autoimmune disease(and that is a lot of people}  could be thrown back into flare ups. I don't have a problem with Covid tests or temp checks but the vaccine may leave lasting effects for some people and why should they be denied cruising just because they have a disease. They are not denied air travel, train travel which also has a lot of people in a enclosed space. We just don't know enough about the vaccine long term to make an informed decision. BTW are you also concerned about the vaccine status of the people in places where your ship may visit? Would you prefer they stay home because you are visiting their country. See how complicated  this is? one  more thing if I am correct NCL is building a new terminal in Miami do you think they will put all that money for something they won't use? 

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2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, the ship requiring proof of vaccination is an "internal policy or procedure", and as such is not susceptible to federal law (and state law does not even come into the equation), as decided by SCOTUS in Spector v NCL, where the justices held that even the ADA did not totally apply to foreign cruise ships, without specific mention by Congress in the Act. 

As unfortunate as that decision was for people that have come to rely on the protections afforded by the ADA, legally that was the only possible decision. What’s funny is that of you read the opinions in that case it looks to be a 6-3 decision, but if you read the plurality opinion and then read Scalia’s dissent you find out quickly that the decision was really 9-0. The dissent related only to one aspect of the case.

 

The plurality held that the ADA could not apply to the internal affairs of a foreign flagged vessel absent a clear indication from Congress that it intended to do so. It went on to say because the ADA did not do so, it could not be enforced on cruise ships (but it took a long winding road to get there).

 

Scalia, in classic Scalia fashion, wrote for himself, C.J. Rehnquist (one of his last cases btw), and J. O’Connor. His view was that, although the plurality reached the correct conclusion, they did so through “creative statutory interpretation and piecemeal application of its provisions.” He seemed particularly bothered by the plurality’s reliance on minimal US contacts between cruise ships and the US in general. He thought it was a slippery slope for future jurisprudence. Instead, his view was McCulloch was clear precedent ... absent a clear statement of Congressional intent of coverage, the ADA could not apply to foreign flagged vessels. Full stop. 
 

Gotta love Scalia .... his classic “I agree with your outcome just not your flawed analysis.”  

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1 hour ago, Laszlo said:

🤣  That's pure BS..... I assure you it's NOT about medical privacy. I've travelled all of the place and have had to show my vaccine book a dozen times or more. 

I agree. BTW I was reading how New York handles their Vaccine Passport (Sterling Plan?-forgot the name). They separate the actual medical records from the database and simply ping the database for a negative response as to whether a person has been vaccinated. Raises the issue as to whether the absence of a medical record can constitute an illegal release of medical information.

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2 hours ago, GA Dave said:

Awesome!!  I will even let my closest CC friends stay at my house if NCL starts to sail out of Savannah!!!  Party time in the Hostess City of the South!!

Well that’s all the invitation I needed. We are on the way! 😂

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55 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

NCL's Del Rio and Florida Governor DeSantis, IMO, are playing chess "together and in concert" in an attempt to get the current federal administration and the CDC to take the cruise lines side against Florida promoting cruising with vaccine restricted cruises.

 

Again, IMO.

 

Currently, NCL publicly stated it can't even ready a ship and crew now until some time in August.  It is May 7th.  There is a lot of time, almost 3 months, for this to play out.

 

I personally do agree with vaccine passports as a requirement for most activities, however, I do agree with proof of vaccination for the resumption of cruises on restricted cruises.  At the same time, on a fully 100% vaccinated crew and passenger restricted cruise, I see no sense in the requirement to social distance (especially on open air decks) and wear masks (although optionally is fine).

 

We'll see. 

Just an FYI about a related tourist-based business.  Universal Orlando removed their 6-foot social distancing requirements yesterday.  They now "recommend" 3-foot distances, but removed all of those annoying distancing stickers from all of the attraction lines, etc.

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26 minutes ago, Cruising Lynne said:

If NCL leaves Florida, it will only be temporary. Too many people enjoy cruising out of Florida, and the new terminal hasn't even been used yet. I would be excited to cruise out of Charleston though. I have family there that would enjoy cruising with us, and their guest room is ready for a pre-cruise stay 😃

 

Agree.  There is too much investment in the Florida ports by the big three cruise lines and Disney is joined at the hip also.

 

I love visiting Charleston.  I believe that they've done dredging work and pier infrastructure work, but I do not know the ability of the port to handle large cruise ships.  It would take a real long time to plan, get approvals and construct anything near the capabilities of the existing Florida ports.

 

Also, didn't Charleston somehow restrict the cruise line ships somehow using the pier?  Requiring tenders?  Impact of parking, facilities for home porting of just one Carnival ship?

 

Don't know.

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54 minutes ago, Tapi said:

Savannah?? Yay! That’s the closest port to the Atlanta area where I live. Right now the closest port of embarkation is Mobile. I’ve always wondered why Savannah hasn’t been developed as a possible embarkation point considering how close it is to a large metropolitan area. Huge cargo ships already go there. Why couldn’t a passenger terminal be built? 

FYI:  We already have a "passenger terminal", such as it is.  It is just north of the Talmadge Bridge.  Unfortunately, I do not believe it could handle the bigger ships at this time.  We have had a few ships from Europe stop here during weather issues in other locales.  They had a large fleet of our trolleys available to take the people to the heart of the historic district.

2021-05-07 112127.JPG

Edited by GA Dave
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I understand why DeSantis is doing it (government is getting way too big) but I’m not sure how he can do it. It may have been yesterday but I think it’s today,The CEO of NCL will be on Neil Covultos show on Fox News today. 

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42 minutes ago, rfs7306 said:

What about people with underlying medical issues for who the vaccine may be detrimental? They are not denied air travel...

 

....one  more thing if I am correct NCL is building a new terminal in Miami do you think they will put all that money for something they won't use? 

Some people can’t fly because of their medical conditions. They seek alternative ways to travel. Cruising isn’t a right, and it’s not an essential service.

 

About the terminal in Miami, it made me think about when TWA (the defunct airline) decided to build their hub in Kansas City. The new airport was built to their specifications with three massive terminals. The concept was innovative at the time, but they soon realized that the terminal had some serious flaws which TWA wanted the city to address before they started operating from there. Kansas City balked and they got on a dispute with TWA. 
 

Long story short, TWA gave Kansas City the middle finger and abandoned them. They decided to build their hub in St Louis which was salivating for the business. St Louis became TWA’s main hub until they went out of business while the Kansas City Airport sat severely underutilized, even to this day. 
 

if NCL decides that Florida won’t work with them, they could decide to move their operations somewhere else and pass the Miami terminal lease to another willing cruise line. But contrary to the Kansas City dispute, there aren’t other options nearly as lucrative as the state of Florida, more specifically south Florida, for the cruise industry. I believe that they will reach a resolution long before NCL decides to abandon their new terminal. Too much to loose. 

Edited by Tapi
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19 minutes ago, GA Dave said:

FYI:  We already have a "passenger terminal", such as it is.  It is just north of the Talmadge Bridge.  Unfortunately, I do not believe it could handle the bigger ships at this time.  We have had a few ships from Europe stop here during weather issues in other locales.  They had a large fleet of our trolleys available to take the people to the heart of the historic district.

2021-05-07 112127.JPG

Thanks for the info! Your post made me do a bit of reading and I remembered that there had been a proposal to research a new cruise terminal in Savannah. Seems like the locals weren’t too fond of the idea and the whole thing was abandoned. 
 

https://www.gpb.org/news/2013/06/28/no-cruise-ships-for-savannah

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Leaving from Savannah, Baltimore, Charleston, Norfolk all sound like great permanent solutions.  I personally hate traveling to Florida to cruise out of, and always preferred NY due to proximity.  But the mayor of NY trashed that city in the last year, so may be awhile before I feel safe there.  Hope the rumors are true about looking for more northern ports. 

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39 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

Also, didn't Charleston somehow restrict the cruise line ships somehow using the pier?  Requiring tenders?  Impact of parking, facilities for home porting of just one Carnival ship?

 

 

Some interesting article on the Charleston port projects.  It seems specifically designed to increase the commercial uses, increase import and export based shipping and growing the commercial sector in the area.

 

There also is one article about the limitations on cruise ship docking at the pier starting in 2017.

 

https://www.cruisemapper.com/news/7801-sc-ports-authority-legal-battle-new-cruise-terminal-port-charleston

 

https://ajot.com/premium/ajot-port-of-charlestons-big-ship-capabilities-growing-with-new-terminal-deeper-harbor

 

https://www.cruisemapper.com/ports/charleston-port-41

 

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