"Fully" vaccinated ?

[M&PGermany]

Dear CC members,

 

an important and interesting question has come up now regarding the acceptance of vaccinations of European citizens. As published by Seabourn only passengers who are "fully vaccinated" will be allowed to sail. The U.S. CDC defines a full vaccination as having received either 2 shots of the SAME vaccine (Biontech/Pfizer and Moderna) or 1 shot of Johnson&Johnson.

 

In Europe millions of citizens have received 1 shot of AstraZeneca (which itself has not yet been certified by the CDC) and will now receive another shot of a DIFFERENT vaccine (Biontech/Pfizer or Moderna) out of precaution due to risk in the age group  of those under 60. This heterologous vaccination scheme is recommended by numerous European states (e.g. Germany, France, Spain, Denmark, etc.) and as such certified by those states to represent a full vaccination. 

BUT it is not yet recommended by the WHO or the CDC.

 

What is Seabourn's definition of a FULL vaccination? 

Will passengers who received this vaccination scheme be allowed to sail?

As of now, I have not received any response to my question regarding this problem by Seabourn.

 

Any ideas?

M&P Germany

Edited May 29, 2021 by M&PGermany

[markham]

Seabourn makes its own rules. Why not ask them? And then let us know what you learn.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

[M&PGermany]

 

2 minutes ago, markham said:

Seabourn makes its own rules. Why not ask them? And then let us know what you learn.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

 

Hi markham,

 

they don't really make their own rules, otherwise they would have started sailing again months ago.

Also, from what I've learned so far, they stick to CDC recommendations. 

I have indeed contacted SB about it but have not yet received an answer which makes me think that even they don't know how to deal with it yet.

 

Best regards, M&P

[markham]

Fair point, and now we will have to wait for whatever CDC and others such as the insurance industry recommend/dictate and whatever Seabourn implements.

 

By any chance does this splitting of vaccine doses apply to you or someone you know with a cruise in July? Seabourn would have to announce its policy soon for these passengers.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

[M&PGermany]

4 minutes ago, markham said:

Fair point, and now we will have to wait for whatever CDC and others such as the insurance industry recommend/dictate and whatever Seabourn implements.

 

By any chance does this splitting of vaccine doses apply to you or someone you know with a cruise in July? Seabourn would have to announce its policy soon for these passengers.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

 

Yes, it does... I started with AZ and like millions of other people will now receive Biontech/Pfizer. That's what the German health authorities decided (for under 60 year olds) and we don't get a choice. That's why I'm asking. Of course, I won't be booking any SB cruise soon unless they reply.

[Neverlookback]

I don't believe Seabourn is bound to CDC recommendations, but from a business point of view it makes sense to align as best possible.  I believe Seabourn would be required to follow all Greece or Caribbean country requirements for those respective cruises as agreements have been made to reopen cruises with these specific countries.  As for the AstraZeneca vaccination, I would guess this will be acceptable worldwide with regards to being protected from Covid.  It's my understanding AstraZeneca only had issues with potential safety from taking the shot and not from it's effectiveness.  I have not seen anyone so far discounting any of the vaccines including the Chinese and Russian vaccines with regards to travel to the US.  Not using the AstraZeneca in the US allowed the government to avoid having to address the safety issues that have arisen that affect acceptance by the public to take any vaccine.  The J&J had a similar situation with the pause causing a reluctance in some to take any of the vaccines.  My opinion... book the cruise and welcome aboard.  Enjoy!

 

As an edit... AstraZeneca with another vaccine, ie. Pfizer is still a winner for me.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Neverlookback

[markham]

So what is the definition of “fully vaccinated” when some people will have a mix for their 2 jabs such as one Az and one Pfizer? That is the question.

 

It seems to me that Seabourn will follow a consensus driven by sovereign regulators with the CDC supplying some context relative to past context. This is new territory and trials apparently are still underway. But I expect it won’t be long. Then Seabourn will announce.

 

Happy and healthy cruising!

 

[Wendy The Wanderer]

This issue is pertinent in Canada as well.  Although we ourselves have our Pfizer first shot and expect the next one in June or July, many people in the 50's and 60's got their first AstraZeneca shot from March through April.  Some are now getting second shots of that vaccine, but others will be getting Pfizer as their second shot.  

 

And why should the CDC be pre-eminent to Seabourn?  Surely the EU health agencies, plus the WHO are just as pertinent?  Each country has its own regulations with regard to this, we are not ruled by the CDC.

[SLSD]

5 hours ago, M&PGermany said:

 

Yes, it does... I started with AZ and like millions of other people will now receive Biontech/Pfizer. That's what the German health authorities decided (for under 60 year olds) and we don't get a choice. That's why I'm asking. Of course, I won't be booking any SB cruise soon unless they reply.

I saw a report (somewhere, you might google) a few days ago that some people have received  THREE doses of vaccine and it is thought the three doses will give better protection for people with immune deficiencies, organ transplants etc.  This has me thinking that perhaps you could get a third dose (which would be your second dose of Pfizer) and this might fix your concern about being fully vaccinated.  I know in the US we were told that it was important to have the same vaccine for our second dose and great care has been taken that everyone has the same vaccine both times.  

 

I also found this article which seems to give confidence that you will be fine with your mix and match vaccine doses:  https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by SLSD

[marazul]

I suspect that SB will have to abide by Greek regulations for all its Athens round trip cruises this summer. So if the mixed doses are ok for entering Greece,  they will be ok for cruising the Greek itineraries.  I don't see how the CDC has anything to do with this.

[M&PGermany]

This has become an interesting discussion and obviously we are all as much in the dark as the Seabourn people themselve. 
I still think that SB will follow CDC guidelines because this is where the company is based. 
Also, we had some chats with ship’s doctors some time ago and were told all Seabourn medical operation is overseen by HAL Seattle. And don‘t forget: As markahm pointed out above there is a lot of legal/insurance stuff involved. 

Interesting, too, I just read that NCL crew members who got their vaccine in their home countries and who received non-CDC-approved vaccines WON‘T be able to work.

Also they were told NOT to get another shot just to have the „correct“ vaccine, because of a possible overreaction of the immune system. They were told to wait for official certification of other vaccines by CDC/WHO. 
 

Needless to say I certainly won‘t be taking a 3rd shot just to be able to cruise. Not a big fan of cytokine storms. 
 

The point of my initial statement was to call for an official definition by Seabourn. 
That I am still waiting for. Before that I would think twice about booking a cruise. I would not want to be left back at the pier on embarkation day. 

[Hlitner]

On 5/29/2021 at 11:03 AM, markham said:

Fair point, and now we will have to wait for whatever CDC and others such as the insurance industry recommend/dictate and whatever Seabourn implements.

 

By any chance does this splitting of vaccine doses apply to you or someone you know with a cruise in July? Seabourn would have to announce its policy soon for these passengers.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

We are booked for late July and SB has yet to fully clarify its policy.  In fact, on their online Check-In screens the "Contract" tab which is normally a detailed policy with a check box now has the following"

 

"Please note the terms and conditions for your upcoming sailing are in the process of being updated to reflect information you need to be aware of due to COVID-19 procedures and protocols. Guests will receive a notification when the updated terms and conditions are ready for review and acceptance. We encourage you to download our Seabourn Source mobile app for this and other travel notifications."

 

Hank

[M&PGermany]

25 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We are booked for late July and SB has yet to fully clarify its policy.

Wow, this sounds pretty late to me. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by M&PGermany

[cruiseej]

Everything in the world is changing pretty quickly. Just think about all the "what if…?" questions we see asked on this forum (e.g. what if I am vaccinated but test positive a week before embarkation? a day before embarkation? at embarkation, during the cruise? etc.) Adapting policies and procedures to comply with each country's and port's regulations is a practical challenge, but "terms and conditions" documents have to cover all the legalese, so it's not surprising that they are scrambling to keep up.

[M&PGermany]

I wonder how airlines cope with it…

[Hlitner]

I think Cruiseej has it right.  For many years cruisers and travelers would schedule trips with a high degree of certainty regarding what to expect.  But the world has now changed and rather then waiting and hoping for the old normalcy I do think travelers/cruisers need to adapt to a new normal.  DW and I are avid cruisers/travelers and have never stopped (even during the worst of the Pandemic) because we simply took advantage of the opportunities that existed and did our best to mitigate our COVID risk.  Now, as the world struggles to reopen, flexibility and adaptability are the key words.  One must also accept that travel plans may need to change (or be canceled) which may well involve some financial risk.  The alternative is to sit home (or close to home) and the months and years pass by....and tell your Grandchildren about the "good ole days."

 

I do think that many folks who have been traditionally very "risk adverse" in their lives, travel, planning, etc. are in for a very rude awakening.  For the next few years we are all going to need to accept that more risk attaches itself to nearly any plan.

 

Hank

[Wendy The Wanderer]

5 hours ago, Hlitner said:

DW and I are avid cruisers/travelers and have never stopped (even during the worst of the Pandemic) because we simply took advantage of the opportunities that existed and did our best to mitigate our COVID risk.

If you don't mind, could I ask what travel you did during the pandemic?  (I'm jealous!)

[RetiredandTravel]

There was an article in the WSJ last week on cruise lines.  Carnival & Norwegian talked about how much they are spending on Covid precautions and procedures.   The cruise industry isn't in my opinion the most transparent group but in this case they really need to be.  Following is the Norwegian quote, it had more detail than Carnival.

 

"Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd. has said it plans to spend about $100 million on health and safety. Its flagship line has pledged to cover necessary Covid-related treatments, land-based quarantine and flights home in the event a passenger tests positive while on board—a promise that would have been unthinkable before the pandemic, analysts said."

 

It seems they have very specific procedures given an event, this is good news.   Even more specificity given certain events would be helpful to us all.

 

My first question would be what is the exact process if someone on board contracts Covid?

 

If I've missed it and someone has this information I'd appreciate it.

[Hlitner]

32 minutes ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

If you don't mind, could I ask what travel you did during the pandemic?  (I'm jealous!)

Ok, you can ask :).  At the risk of being boastful here is what we did.  In June 2020 we took our usual 2 week trip to South Carolina (staying in two beach communities) where we spent every day at the beach (without wearing masks) and dined out every evening (in many different restaurants).  On the way home (driving) from that trip we decided to stop and spend a night in the Washington DC area so we could dine out at our favorite Georgetown restaurant.   During the summer we hosted our DD, SIL and two Grandchildren for a good part of the summer which kept us busy.  In the Fall, Florida opened up to tourism so we flew to Florida for about 1 1/2 weeks spending a few days in Key West (we love the place) where we dined out once or twice every day.  We then drove up to the mainland, across the Everglades and up to Ft Myers Beach where we spend a few more days (including dining out).  Since we were flying home from Tampa we drove up the night before so we could have a nice evening dining at the well known Bern's Steak House (it was actually crowded back in Dec 2021).  Then right after New Years we flew down to Puerto Vallarta for our usual 10 week visit.  In PV we dined out over 75 times (at more then 35 different restaurants).

 

We would have done even more, but during that time period we had 4 canceled cruises (which included trips to both Europe and Asia) and a canceled driving trip to Canada (they closed the border).  There were also very few places one could go where things were open (Florida was the main exception for which we are grateful to Governor DeSantis).

 

This month we are pretty much getting back into our normal travel routine although we have had to adjust to deal with what is open and what is not!  So we did have to cancel a trip to Japan, but we have added a few week trip to Greece.  We actually have 46 cruise days booked for the 2nd half of this year (plus some land travel).  Bottom line is that the world is in the process of reopening to the vaccinated and we are certainly going to take advantage of the travel opportunities.

 

One special note to you since we are aware you are Canadian.  We still have some Canadian friends (from Calgary) who are still in Puerto Vallarta...weeks after they would have normally gone back to their Canadian home.  They are so incensed at the Canadian entry rules that they have simply decided to stay in Mexico (they own their own place).  DW and I would certainly consider a driving trip to Canada this summer but obviously that will not happen with the closed border.  Tis a shame.

 

Hank

[cruiseej]

1 hour ago, RetiredandTravel said:

My first question would be what is the exact process if someone on board contracts Covid?

 

If I've missed it and someone has this information I'd appreciate it.

 

I can't answer for Seabourn, but I listened into a Facebook Live call with the chief marketing officer of Silversea this morning, and can relay what she said.

 

Silversea will be setting aside about 10% of cabins for isolation, should anyone test positive or develop symptoms during a cruise. They will test multiple times to rule out a false positive. If the passenger does have Covid, the passenger will be disembarked at a port as soon as possible. The reason: although it's highly unlikely with a vaccinated person, should someone get seriously ill, they would be better off in a full-fledged hospital than a shipboard medical center. The passenger's traveling party would have the option of disembarking or remaining on board, I believe. (That is, a spouse might get off, but others in their party may or may not decide to continue on the cruise.) The cruise line would be responsible for return flights (this might be only if air was booked with the cruise line), but not medical care.

[Covepointcruiser]

Hlinter’s travel to the DC area last June/July is interesting.    We were still under strict lockdown with only essential travel acceptable.   We work in a food pantry and had to have official placards in our car when we were picking up food or traveling to the pantry.   Hard to believe you were able to ignore the restrictions and eat at a restaurant in Georgetown.   What restaurant was open and wasn’t it just for take out?   The hospitals were full of COVID patients with many outside in tents.   Hotels were giving free rooms to hospital staff so they didn’t have to risk the lives of their families by going home.    The homeless were also put up in a number of DC hotels.   Lucky you didn’t catch COVID at your hotel!

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, Covepointcruiser said:

Hlinter’s travel to the DC area last June/July is interesting.    We were still under strict lockdown with only essential travel acceptable.   We work in a food pantry and had to have official placards in our car when we were picking up food or traveling to the pantry.   Hard to believe you were able to ignore the restrictions and eat at a restaurant in Georgetown.   What restaurant was open and wasn’t it just for take out?   The hospitals were full of COVID patients with many outside in tents.   Hotels were giving free rooms to hospital staff so they didn’t have to risk the lives of their families by going home.    The homeless were also put up in a number of DC hotels.   Lucky you didn’t catch COVID at your hotel!

When we were in DC back in July, 2021, the DC restaurants were allowed to have both outdoor and indoor dining with strict capacity controls and social distancing.  I just went back and checked on the dates and we actually did that trip later then our usual time in June.  We actually dined in Georgetown on Saturday night, July 25.  Our usual June trip had been delayed because our usual rental property in Kiawah, SC was not available until July.  The restaurant we visited (a French restaurant in Georgetown on M Street  that has been in business for a few decades) was about 1/4 full when we visited on a quiet Saturday night.  The food was perfect, the staff wonderful, and it was made very clear that they appreciated our support by dining in their establishment.  To be honest, I had little concern about COVID or our safety in the restaurant, but did have concern about our safety on the streets because of increased crime and demonstrators who had a habit of interfering with diners.  In fact, although the weather was good that evening there was no way we even considered outdoor dining anywhere in the DC area for fear of unfettered activists.   The restaurant was operating in compliance of the, then, local rules (we checked before going out that evening).  

 

Hank

[cece50]

8 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Ok, you can ask :).  At the risk of being boastful here is what we did.  In June 2020 we took our usual 2 week trip to South Carolina (staying in two beach communities) where we spent every day at the beach (without wearing masks) and dined out every evening (in many different restaurants).  On the way home (driving) from that trip we decided to stop and spend a night in the Washington DC area so we could dine out at our favorite Georgetown restaurant.   During the summer we hosted our DD, SIL and two Grandchildren for a good part of the summer which kept us busy.  In the Fall, Florida opened up to tourism so we flew to Florida for about 1 1/2 weeks spending a few days in Key West (we love the place) where we dined out once or twice every day.  We then drove up to the mainland, across the Everglades and up to Ft Myers Beach where we spend a few more days (including dining out).  Since we were flying home from Tampa we drove up the night before so we could have a nice evening dining at the well known Bern's Steak House (it was actually crowded back in Dec 2021).  Then right after New Years we flew down to Puerto Vallarta for our usual 10 week visit.  In PV we dined out over 75 times (at more then 35 different restaurants).

 

We would have done even more, but during that time period we had 4 canceled cruises (which included trips to both Europe and Asia) and a canceled driving trip to Canada (they closed the border).  There were also very few places one could go where things were open (Florida was the main exception for which we are grateful to Governor DeSantis).

 

This month we are pretty much getting back into our normal travel routine although we have had to adjust to deal with what is open and what is not!  So we did have to cancel a trip to Japan, but we have added a few week trip to Greece.  We actually have 46 cruise days booked for the 2nd half of this year (plus some land travel).  Bottom line is that the world is in the process of reopening to the vaccinated and we are certainly going to take advantage of the travel opportunities.

 

One special note to you since we are aware you are Canadian.  We still have some Canadian friends (from Calgary) who are still in Puerto Vallarta...weeks after they would have normally gone back to their Canadian home.  They are so incensed at the Canadian entry rules that they have simply decided to stay in Mexico (they own their own place).  DW and I would certainly consider a driving trip to Canada this summer but obviously that will not happen with the closed border.  Tis a shame.

 

Hank

I just love your spirit of adventure.  We can identify.   We hosted all our kids & grandchildren during the entire “pandemic” in Florida, we spend the winter in Naples and felt very blessed. We followed all the rules and we were all fine.  Last October before winter settled in, we packed up our SUV, plopped a Thule on top and set out from Northern NJ for the Great American Road Trip to San Diego where one of our sons & family live......with stops in Nashville to visit our daughter & her family,  after a few weeks in SD we were off to Las Vegas, & Tucson before heading to Naples. On the road, we stayed at  hotels, motels which had great Covid protocols.  Lots of picnic lunches at scenic roadside rests....it was amazing just how many people were on the road. With music on the radio and audible books, the days went by fast.  We have an amazingly beautiful country.  We plan to head west again this summer, but we will mask up (how I hate them) & take to the skies.  When life hands you a lemon, you made some great lemonade. All that being said....I miss and can’t wait to board a ship again. 

[RetiredandTravel]

14 hours ago, cruiseej said:

 

I can't answer for Seabourn, but I listened into a Facebook Live call with the chief marketing officer of Silversea this morning, and can relay what she said.

 

Silversea will be setting aside about 10% of cabins for isolation, should anyone test positive or develop symptoms during a cruise. They will test multiple times to rule out a false positive. If the passenger does have Covid, the passenger will be disembarked at a port as soon as possible. The reason: although it's highly unlikely with a vaccinated person, should someone get seriously ill, they would be better off in a full-fledged hospital than a shipboard medical center. The passenger's traveling party would have the option of disembarking or remaining on board, I believe. (That is, a spouse might get off, but others in their party may or may not decide to continue on the cruise.) The cruise line would be responsible for return flights (this might be only if air was booked with the cruise line), but not medical care.

 

 

This isn't very comforting.  So if someone tests positive and they have no serious symptoms they get let off at the next port?  Do they help you get to a hospital?  Spouse get a hotel?  They will help you get a flight home (if you used their air program only possibly).  How about medical evacuations?  I will certainly be careful what ports the cruise goes to, there are a lot of ports I wouldn't want to be left at.  I hope the test isn't the one they put in your nose, I've had it 5 times hurts like heck.

 

LMAO 

 

Me:  "Honey I have Covid they are letting us off the next port"

 

My Wife "That's terrible, good luck, see you when we get home.  Butler please make all our reservations for one"

 

 

[Hlitner]

The fear that surrounds COVID is sometimes more of an issue then COVID.  So lets talk about some facts that will likely drive the cruise line's policies regarding COVID onboard.  Assuming a ship has mostly vaccinated folks (most ships will have policies of 95% - 100& vaccinated) COVID would normally be a very manageable disease just like any other contagious illness.  If 1 or 2 folks, onboard, get COVID the odds (well over 90%) favor they would have relatively mild cases.  Assuming that is the case they folks can easily be treated onboard with isolation and supportive medical care.  In a few days they will recover.  Since most of the folks on the ship have been vaccinated (vaccinated folks do not generally get or spread COVID) there is little risk to the others onboard (with the exception of any unvaccinated).  Assuming it is a mild case there would be no reason to disembark the patient(s) unless there was a reason that the patient needed land-based hospitalization (most COVID cases do not need to be treated at a hospital).   If the patient(s) have a more serious case then the cruise ship would need to have a protocol to get that person to a hospital just like they do with anyone who has a serious illness/injury on a vessel.

 

So the key to dealing with COVID is having most (if not all) the folks vaccinated.  For the moment, DW and I are only booking cruises that require 100% vaccinated compliance in order to avoid any potential issue with COVID.  Of course that means we are back to the usual cruise fears of Norovirus and URIs.

 

Hank