Is Royal Caribbean trying to get all Canadians to cancel their planned cruises?

[xcell]

8 minutes ago, orville99 said:

We just received a full refund to our credit card for an FCC on a cruise that had been cancelled - moved - then cancelled again by RCL, so apparently they have gotten a bit more rational about these situations.

Good to know... now they have to be rational about the vaccine part but I know, it's not them, it's the CDC and the WHO who rule the roost.    We, here in Ontario, have been locked down since Nov 2020 (no indoor dining, no malls, haircuts, etc.... but hey, Costco still open) and have been complaining to the government to be more "rationale" but they only started to loosen up last week. I'm used to all (but tired) of this.

Edited July 25, 2021 by xcell

[rtazz17]

16 hours ago, Mark_UK said:

New studies showing that 8 weeks is in fact an optimal dose interval. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/delay-second-dose-pfizer-covid-coronavirus-vaccine-immune-response-study-2021-7

Until next week when a newer study pays more then the previous study. Science is not involved here at all. Its money and politics per usual.

[A&L_Ont]

47 minutes ago, xcell said:

Does Covid change between imaginary lines? Across Oceans? If the vaccine protocols we used aren't up to par, how come our numbers are better than theirs?

What others did doesn’t matter, because they do not have to spend any time to study data that doesn’t apply to them. When they can mass produce more than they require, and retain it all for themselves, they have no need to study data from what others needed to do to survive.  It’s their country their rules.  No one can force that. 
 

Masking rules dropped when it “disappeared”😉 in the States.  People stopped getting shots, because it was “over”.  In March when the States were giving 3.5 million a doses a day, Canada was getting a million a week for the nation delivered from Pfizer in Belgium.  
 

Canada has been slow, then steady in giving them.  Now we are more vaccinated than the states, fully and partially.  We had our third wave in April while they avoided it by vaccinations starting late last year.
 

That might soon change, now that Delta has arrived in the States.  It might just be saying to those Americans who decided not to dose up…. “hold my beer”.  The current trends do not seem to be favourable, especially when you see the the vaccine rates across their nation.  Maybe Canada will be extending the border closure the to the US.  Our country, our rules. 🤷‍♂️
 

Each nation has to do what was right for them. If we don’t  cruise for a while them so be it. There are alternatives, and knock on wood Canada is currently in a good position health wise. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by A&L_Ont

[DrewFoundLander]

17 hours ago, Russ Lomas said:

I just posted this in the Canadian group, but I would also like it here as well since I know that all members do not read that other group.  This information was shared with me from another thread here but may get overlooked by many.

 

Based on what is now posted on the RCCL website, you must have both of your vaccines (regardless of type) less than 42 days apart, otherwise you are considered unvaccinated by RCCL rules.  I do not think there are any (or VERY few Canadians) who were vaccinated less than 42 days apart due to supply shortages.

 

From the RCCL website below:

The U.S. CDC advises that a vaccine series should be completed with products from the same manufacturer, as the safety of a mixed-product series has not been fully evaluated. However, Royal Caribbean will accommodate guests who are vaccinated with mixed mRNA vaccines, such as 1 shot of Pfizer and 1 shot of Moderna. The doses must be separated by at least 28 days and not more than 42 days.

 

If you look at the CDC website, this is their recommendation:

You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.

 

That will basically mean all Canadians are now considered UNVACCINATED according to the new info on the RCCL site.  This really screws us fully vaccinated Canadians who got two of the same vaccine as quick as our government permitted us to do so.

 

Our travel agent has reached out to RCCL for clarification, but I think Mr. Bayley's email needs to be flooded to get them to reverse this decision.

 

mbayley@rccl.com

 

Unless someone else in this thread has already addressed the point it is worth noting this time frame only applies to Mixed Doses. If you have both shots from the same manufacturer of an approved vaccine you are considered fully vaccinated. I am just off the phone with Royal and have confirmed the same with the customer service rep and resolutions.

 

 

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/questions/what-vaccines-are-accepted

Edited July 25, 2021 by DrewFoundLander

[smplybcause]

2 hours ago, Biker19 said:

You channeling @ace2542?

 

Probably not. Not familiar with the poster, but my never be over wasn't a doomsday prediction. I don't think the virus will be eradicated mostly due to vaccination rates, but I also don't think it'll be pandemic forever. There's light at the end of the tunnel - it's just not the same end we came in from. 

[sgmn]

4 minutes ago, smplybcause said:

 

Probably not. Not familiar with the poster, but my never be over wasn't a doomsday prediction. I don't think the virus will be eradicated mostly due to vaccination rates, but I also don't think it'll be pandemic forever. There's light at the end of the tunnel - it's just not the same end we came in from. 

There's a very interesting article below about how it will eventually become a coronavirus we can live with as we do with other coronavirus . The difference in opinion with the experts is how long it will take to reach that point 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ed774c62-ebc2-11eb-ba7b-b4d4e5c44898?shareToken=a529e9226a341fa3c225da9442ff55c0

[Ourusualbeach]

31 minutes ago, DrewFoundLander said:

Unless someone else in this thread has already addressed the point it is worth noting this time frame only applies to Mixed Doses. If you have both shots from the same manufacturer of an approved vaccine you are considered fully vaccinated. I am just off the phone with Royal and have confirmed the same with the customer service rep and resolutions.

 

It has been discussed and in typical Royal fashion there are mixed messages coming from them.  I was also told by customer service and resolutions the exact opposite of what you were told as was another person.  We were both told that same dose vaccines still must meet manufacture guidelines with respect to dosing intervals.

[orville99]

17 hours ago, Mark_UK said:

New studies showing that 8 weeks is in fact an optimal dose interval. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/delay-second-dose-pfizer-covid-coronavirus-vaccine-immune-response-study-2021-7

Interesting...It is, however, research brought to you by the same folks at Oxford that convinced the U.K. government that waiting 12 weeks to do second doses of the AZ vaccine would allow them to get enough immunity in every U.K citizen to beat the virus. Unfortunately, the case rate in the U.K. over the past 14 days is 874/100K while the U.S. (who followed the vaccine manufacturer and CDC guidelines) stands at 147/100K. 

 

Maybe a bit more research is needed before conclusions are cast in stone.

[LuCruise]

It's funny as you just can't win.  We waited an additional 2 weeks to give our 16 year old son his second dose as "Health Canada recommends waiting between 8 and 16 weeks for 12-17 year olds" due to some heart risk, especially for young boys.  We could have gotten him in sooner if we used the excuse that he is a camp counsellor (and can't work from home).  Then they removed that recommendation.  By the time vaccines opened for 12+ (and our daughter had her 12th birthday), the rules changed so she got her second at 29 days.  So basically in our household, only our 12 year old daughter will be considered vaccinated so she will be allowed in the bars, and special seating and venues with the vaccinated passengers even though we are all fully vaccinated , and even with the same dose.  Hoping Royal changes this.

[not-enough-cruising]

21 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

It has been discussed and in typical Royal fashion there are mixed messages coming from them.  I was also told by customer service and resolutions the exact opposite of what you were told as was another person.  We were both told that same dose vaccines still must meet manufacture guidelines with respect to dosing intervals.

It would seem to me, that the common sense answer is: if the same dose manufacturer dictated interval was not adhered to, then the dose does not meet the requirements of the EUA; therefore not an acceptable situation. 
 

Of course, common sense isn’t very common these days. 

[squadron]

18 hours ago, Russ Lomas said:

I just posted this in the Canadian group, but I would also like it here as well since I know that all members do not read that other group.  This information was shared with me from another thread here but may get overlooked by many.

 

Based on what is now posted on the RCCL website, you must have both of your vaccines (regardless of type) less than 42 days apart, otherwise you are considered unvaccinated by RCCL rules.  I do not think there are any (or VERY few Canadians) who were vaccinated less than 42 days apart due to supply shortages.

 

From the RCCL website below:

The U.S. CDC advises that a vaccine series should be completed with products from the same manufacturer, as the safety of a mixed-product series has not been fully evaluated. However, Royal Caribbean will accommodate guests who are vaccinated with mixed mRNA vaccines, such as 1 shot of Pfizer and 1 shot of Moderna. The doses must be separated by at least 28 days and not more than 42 days.

 

If you look at the CDC website, this is their recommendation:

You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.

 

That will basically mean all Canadians are now considered UNVACCINATED according to the new info on the RCCL site.  This really screws us fully vaccinated Canadians who got two of the same vaccine as quick as our government permitted us to do so.

 

Our travel agent has reached out to RCCL for clarification, but I think Mr. Bayley's email needs to be flooded to get them to reverse this decision.

 

mbayley@rccl.com

 

[squadron]

1 hour ago, xcell said:

Good to know... now they have to be rational about the vaccine part but I know, it's not them, it's the CDC and the WHO who rule the roost.    We, here in Ontario, have been locked down since Nov 2020 (no indoor dining, no malls, haircuts, etc.... but hey, Costco still open) and have been complaining to the government to be more "rationale" but they only started to loosen up last week. I'm used to all (but tired) of this.

 

[squadron]

17 hours ago, DHLuCruise said:

Our numbers in Canada are excellent. Numbers don't lie. I understand they are following the FDA in this. I get it. We have a cruise in December and hope it gets resolved by then (multiple Moderna doses 63 d apart).

 

[Ourusualbeach]

21 minutes ago, orville99 said:

Interesting...It is, however, research brought to you by the same folks at Oxford that convinced the U.K. government that waiting 12 weeks to do second doses of the AZ vaccine would allow them to get enough immunity in every U.K citizen to beat the virus. Unfortunately, the case rate in the U.K. over the past 14 days is 874/100K while the U.S. (who followed the vaccine manufacturer and CDC guidelines) stands at 147/100K. 

 

Maybe a bit more research is needed before conclusions are cast in stone.

And yet Canada who also did not follow manufacturers guidelines with respect to dosing intervals had just under 8 cases per 100,000 over the past 7 days.

[DHLuCruise]

4 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

And yet Canada who also did not follow manufacturers guidelines with respect to dosing intervals had just under 8 cases per 100,000 over the past 7 days.

 

Also.. I'm happy to bring up the per capita death rates as well if people really want to school Canadians on how they inappropriately handled the pandemic. 

 

The UK did not spread the vaccines across their population evenly which is why they are running into their issues (<40 barely had access to vaccines when they started to open up and they got whacked with the delta variant at the same time). People are creating equivalencies when its tenuous at best.

 

If Canada taking a slightly unorthodox and in some ways extra cautious approach to the pandemic (example: aggressively targeting first doses, closing cruise ports in Canada, heavier use of lockdowns, etc) saved more lives, and if that means it will be a pain in the butt for Canadians to travel via Royal Caribbean -- hey, that's fine. Reasonable trade-off.

 

I don't love the title of this thread as I think its hyperbolic, however Canadians are allowed to be disappointed even though it might be directly related to decisions that we made. I'm confident the science is on our side based on what we're seeing on the ground in the country.

 

This is not meant to be inflammatory but I have a feeling we're at a point where on specifics we will have to agree to disagree.

[A&L_Ont]

18 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

It would seem to me, that the common sense answer is: if the same dose manufacturer dictated interval was not adhered to, then the dose does not meet the requirements of the EUA; therefore not an acceptable situation. 
 

Of course, common sense isn’t very common these days. 

Many will see this your way.  I do, even though I had 3 months between doses not by my choice. It is the honest truth, recommendations from the manufacturer were not followed. Further studies will show if this was the right move or not. 
 

You also have to consider that many will also have vaccine jealousy of the States. Unfortunately the States are currently throwing away outdated doses as Delta is getting a foothold on those unvaccinated, for whatever reason.  Other countries would love to be in this situation.  That being said they would do anything to have access to those almost outdated doses. 

 

Canada is a prime example of a nation that did what they did, to protect as many as they could  across the board. That being said, we can still cruise, we just have to be treated as “unvaccinated”, until studies prove otherwise and the CDC/lines approve them. 

 

 

 

[billslowsky]

9 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

You also have to consider that many will also have vaccine jealousy of the States. Unfortunately the States are currently throwing away outdated doses as Delta is getting a foothold on those unvaccinated, for whatever reason.  Other countries would love to be in this situation.  That being said they would do anything to have access to those almost outdated doses. 

 

Many of those countries weren't willing to pay the prices that the manufacturers were able to get in the US.  People can complain about drug prices all they want but you won't get "latest and greatest" as readily as the US gets now.

[topnole]

19 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

And yet Canada who also did not follow manufacturers guidelines with respect to dosing intervals had just under 8 cases per 100,000 over the past 7 days.

In the south people go indoors in the summer.  So the delta variant spreads

much faster and people need to be indoors due to the heat.  So it seems natural that it would spread a lot more in the hotter climates right now.  We don’t know yet what the delta variant will do when winter weather comes up north.  There are likely many things that impact the spread beyond just vaccination rates.  From what I’m reading, the variant will spread like wild fire through the unvaccinated.  So it is likely going to hit every nation at some point.  My guess is that weather has a lot do with some of these current differences.  In other words, I doubt Canada is out of the woods on this and this variant is incredibly contagious.  
 

The other important stat is death rate.  As said in a prior post, Covid will likely be around indefinitely and become something we deal with.  If hospital/death rates become low, infection rates become less important.  Asymptomatic folks who are vaccinated and test positive are not a real concern to the medical community, but those numbers count just as much as someone gravely ill when we just look at positive rates.  This context matters a lot.

 

 

[A&L_Ont]

2 minutes ago, DHLuCruise said:

If Canada taking a slightly unorthodox and in some ways extra cautious approach to the pandemic (example: aggressively targeting first doses, closing cruise ports in Canada, heavier use of lockdowns, etc) saved more lives, and if that means it will be a pain in the butt for Canadians to travel via Royal Caribbean -- hey, that's fine. Reasonable trade-off.

 

100% agreed.  There are alternatives to cruising even though we are not considered “vaccinated” and we have options. Perhaps Canada wants to open up the discussion again with the Turks and Caicos to have “province” away from home. 😁

 

2 minutes ago, DHLuCruise said:

I don't love the title of this thread as I think its hyperbolic, however Canadians are allowed to be disappointed even though it might be directly related to decisions that we made. I'm confident the science is on our side based on what we're seeing on the ground in the country.

The proof is in our current rates of infection.  At this moment in time our approach is tending to show that the right technique happened, even if it went against the recommendations of vaccine manufacturers.  I’ll live with that, knowing more were protected.  I can find a different form of vacation for the time being if needed. 

[Ourusualbeach]

16 minutes ago, topnole said:

context matters a lot.

Exactly why I posted what I did.  The person I quoted posted one example of drastically skewed numbers the other way to make their point while I just posted completely opposite numbers.  Context does matter.

[Ourusualbeach]

18 minutes ago, topnole said:

The other important stat is death rate.  As said in a prior post, Covid will likely be around indefinitely and become something we deal with.  If hospital/death rates become low, infection rates become less important.  Asymptomatic folks who are vaccinated and test positive are not a real concern to the medical community, but those numbers count just as much as someone gravely ill when we just look at positive rates.  

Exactly, take a look at the UK for example where case counts are climbing yet the death rate has remained relatively stable.

[A&L_Ont]

8 minutes ago, billslowsky said:

 

Many of those countries weren't willing to pay the prices that the manufacturers were able to get in the US.  People can complain about drug prices all they want but you won't get "latest and greatest" as readily as the US gets now.

Actually countries are/were not allowed to purchase vaccine doses manufactured in the States. Has the Defence Production Act been dropped on the vaccines yet, because until then they are not available for purchase export. The President has recently announced doses going to many countries from the States, but giving away VS purchased production are by no means the same thing. Kudos to America helping others in need. It is a great thing to do. I respect that fully. 
 

That being said, the Pfizer shot produced in the US is no different than the one produced in Belgium. It isn’t the latest and greatest, when it comes to vaccinations for the pandemic. That’s what this discussion is about, production capabilities and not the newest acid reflux drug.
 

Production and protectionism is something the US has, and many others do not.  Thus my comment about vaccine jealousy.  The States had the upper hand on the pandemic well before others due to shots but now might be on the edge of bad situation due to hesitancy.  I certainly hope that is not the case. Thankfully you have the capacity to produce what is needed. 

[tserface]

Seems fair. Canada canceled them first.

 

🙂

[Russ Lomas]

5 hours ago, twangster said:

Canadians still can't travel for leisure purposes across the US border.

Not true. Canadians can and always have been able to travel across the US border for leisure purposes during the pandemic.  They just have to fly because the land border is still closed to us to enter the US.

 

4 hours ago, A&L_Ont said:

Don’t ask, don’t tell policy for Canadians with same doses?😉

We think the same way, but it would be agonizing to get to the port and then have them ask for dates of both vaccines from separate documents.  I could only imagine the mess at the port if the agents had to pull out a calendar to try and count the number of days between doses for every passenger to see if they fell in the less than 42 day category.  People working in a grocery store need a calculator to figure out how much change they should give if an item costs $4.25 and I give them $5.25.  They are baffled why I gave them the extra quarter.

 

3 hours ago, twangster said:

My posts are aimed at the author of the thread who is trying to shame the cruise line for following the regulations they are required to follow.

Not trying to shame the cruise line at all.  Their printed policy can be interpreted in 2 entirely distinct ways depending on how you read it.  Calls to supervisors at RCCL made by different people speaking to different supervisors get totally contradictory interpretations of the printed guidelines.  I am hoping for the print to be clearly changed and not be so difficult to understand.  That said, I hope the print copy if changed does favour all of us who got our vaccines as quick as supplies permitted us to do so.

 

3 hours ago, xcell said:

The OP is hoping enough Canadians email to voice their complaints, similar to that fiasco in NYC where they were not going to allow certain types and regiments to see Broadway shows. Enough complaints and the rules were changed.

Thank you.  You get entirely what I am saying.  I forgot about that Broadway show incident, but great example.  Just like the Canadian couple who had mixed vaccines and were told they could not honeymoon in Barbados.  The story was picked up by the media and the Barbados government changed their policy within days.

[Russ Lomas]

1 hour ago, DHLuCruise said:

The UK did not spread the vaccines across their population evenly which is why they are running into their issues (<40 barely had access to vaccines when they started to open up and they got whacked with the delta variant at the same time). People are creating equivalencies when its tenuous at best.

 

I don't love the title of this thread as I think its hyperbolic, however Canadians are allowed to be disappointed even though it might be directly related to decisions that we made. I'm confident the science is on our side based on what we're seeing on the ground in the country.

People seem to say look at what the Delta variant has done to the UK, and it is just a matter of time before it does the same to Canada.  You raise a good point that the UK were in a different place when Delta arrived there (those less than 40 not having vaccine access yet).  I always point out that those 12-17 are not getting vaccinated in the UK (I hear they just permitted this in the past week for some at risk in that group) and also the main vaccine the UK is using they say is about 65% effective vs Delta vs the main ones Canada is using is about 90% effective against Delta.  For these reasons, I do not think Delta will hit Canada as hard as in the UK.  That said, with many in the US refusing to get vaccinated, their numbers will likely go very high once again.  Our numbers in Canada may rise in the fall when schools open again, but who knows.

 

As for the title of the thread, I was really peeved when I was told that we may no longer be considered vaccinated all of a sudden after being considered fully vaccinated 24 hours ago due to a different interpretation of a policy by a RCCL supervisor.  Coming up with a thread title to try to get others to read the thread and possibly enlisting their assistance to have RCCL review their policy in a timely manner and state their policy in a way that cannot be interpreted differently by their different supervisors working for them is something I hope we can achieve.