Is Royal Caribbean trying to get all Canadians to cancel their planned cruises?

[DHLuCruise]

Just now, Ourusualbeach said:

the CDC also goes on to state that in the event that your second dose falls outside of that timeframe you are not to get an additional shot and you are considered fully vaccinated.

You're bang on.. 

 

I'm hoping that Royal will come to their senses soon. Are you seeing any movement from any calls that you've made to them?

[Ourusualbeach]

4 minutes ago, DHLuCruise said:

You're bang on.. 

 

I'm hoping that Royal will come to their senses soon. Are you seeing any movement from any calls that you've made to them?

Expect clarification today.

[Russ Lomas]

To add a further update do you why does just posted above which I hope is the final answer. This was sent to someone I was chatting with on Facebook and not directly to me but it would seem to be good news for all of us if this is in fact true. 

[DirtyDawg]

4 hours ago, BrianB said:

What I don't understand is ... why is Canada opening our Borders to U.S. Citizens when they feel we are not fully Vaccinated? .... isn't that putting our Country at Risk?

 

  Sorry for the Vent

In the end its all about the money.

Using 2018 numbers, U.S. tourism to Canada amounted to .6% of our GDP (Gross Domestic Product), while Canadian tourism to the U.S. amounted to .1% of the U.S.'s GDP. 

 

In dollar terms we spend more than 2x vs. the U.S. on cross border tourism but since the U.S. economy is more than 10X the size of Canada's the relative contribution to total GDP is much smaller.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by DirtyDawg

[bob&france]

Great info Russ…thanks for sharing !

[bob&france]

Question for fellow Canadians…  if a transatlantic cruise leaves or stops in a Schengen country within 14 days of arriving in the USA, are we permitted entry ?

[Russ Lomas]

1 hour ago, DeanD said:

From the CDC:

 

You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.

From this CDC page.

 

I'm sure the information will change over time as sufficient data surfaces.  The CDC is not known for changing things on the whim or quickly without a good reason and I don't think in their eyes that travel is sufficient reason to cause them to cut additional corners.  They have a committee that looks at these issues called the ACIP then a formal approval process.  

@DeanD Not to argue, but also directly from the CDC,

 

Interval between mRNA doses

The second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines should be administered as close to the recommended interval as possible, but not earlier than recommended (i.e., 3 weeks [Pfizer-BioNTech] or 1 month [Moderna]). However, individuals who receive the second dose up to 4 days before or at any time after the recommended date can be considered fully vaccinated.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Russ Lomas
add personal tag

[DeanD]

51 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

the CDC also goes on to state that in the event that your second dose falls outside of that timeframe you are not to get an additional shot and you are considered fully vaccinated.

No argument there is lots of additional information, just that if one is a purist, the interpretation of being unvaccinated after 42 days is defendable and fully c/w the CDC guidelines.  

Edited July 28, 2021 by DeanD

[Ourusualbeach]

20 minutes ago, DeanD said:

No argument there is lots of additional information, just that if one is a purist, the interpretation of being unvaccinated after 42 days is defendable and fully c/w the CDC guidelines.  

Not sure what you mean by a purist as it is the CDC that states that you are considered vaccinated if you receive the second shot beyond the 42 days.

 

No where does it state you are considered unvaccinated if you fall beyond the 42 days.  Seems pretty clear.

[DeanD]

3 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

Not sure what you mean by a purist as it is the CDC that states that you are considered vaccinated if you receive the second shot beyond the 42 days.

 

No where does it state you are considered unvaccinated if you fall beyond the 42 days.  Seems pretty clear.

One would go back to the FDA approval of the vaccines.  I realize that this is an emotionally charged subject with lots of pieces of information that don't fit together and will be changing for years.  Still, the interpretation by RCL is a reasonable one at present given the situation.

[dswallow]

I think we basically see the current interpretation of "fully vaccinated" by Royal Caribbean allows for no real scrutiny of vaccine dose dates when both doses are the same brand.

Where the dates matter with specific minimum and maximum days between them is in the handful of allowed mixed doses they are now calling out specifically and accepting. Where there may be more wiggle room is if the mixed doses are at least both mRNA vaccines.

[DHLuCruise]

1 minute ago, DeanD said:

One would go back to the FDA approval of the vaccines.  I realize that this is an emotionally charged subject with lots of pieces of information that don't fit together and will be changing for years.  Still, the interpretation by RCL is a reasonable one at present given the situation.

 

I know you're genuine at heart and trying to be helpful. That's sincerely appreciated. What you are seeing is frustration that people are continually correcting Canadians and others as if we don't know how to read the regulations. We do. 

 

The point I think everyone can agree upon is this is an INTERPRETATION of the regulation. What Canadians are concerned about is that the interpretation isn't consistent with the reality of efficacy on the ground.

 

We're not saying RC is evil here, we're trying to ask them to take a second look. Which it seems that they are. That's all we can ask.

[mabt]

3 minutes ago, DeanD said:

Still, the interpretation by RCL is a reasonable one at present given the situation.

Well, that's obviously a matter of opinion.  But the bigger question is, why is RCCL trying to impose their own "interpretation" at all?  I rather doubt that they have experts in immunology on staff.

 

There is literally no other organization imposing this restriction.  Not the CDC, not the destination countries, not other cruise lines - even the ones owned by the same holding company.

 

And yes, the subject is emotionally charged for some, but this isn't an emotional response.  You can play devil's advocate if you want, but the argument really doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[mabt]

5 minutes ago, DHLuCruise said:

 

I know you're genuine at heart and trying to be helpful. That's sincerely appreciated. What you are seeing is frustration that people are continually correcting Canadians and others as if we don't know how to read the regulations. We do. 

 

The point I think everyone can agree upon is this is an INTERPRETATION of the regulation. What Canadians are concerned about is that the interpretation isn't consistent with the reality of efficacy on the ground.

 

We're not saying RC is evil here, we're trying to ask them to take a second look. Which it seems that they are. That's all we can ask.

 

If I could give this multiple "likes", I would.

[MaddyandMax]

1 hour ago, Ourusualbeach said:

the CDC also goes on to state that in the event that your second dose falls outside of that timeframe you are not to get an additional shot and you are considered fully vaccinated.

So if this is the case how could the CDC not consider Canadians fully vaccinated?  Under their own guidelines an American who had to wait, for whatever reason, more than 42 days would be considered fully vaccinated.  Should it not be the same for us?  This is the frustration.

[Ourusualbeach]

5 minutes ago, MaddyandMax said:

So if this is the case how could the CDC not consider Canadians fully vaccinated?  Under their own guidelines an American who had to wait, for whatever reason, more than 42 days would be considered fully vaccinated.  Should it not be the same for us?  This is the frustration.

The CDC does consider Canadians, Americans and other nations as fully vaccinated.  It is Royal's interpretation of the policy that will prevent Canadians, Americans and other nations unvaccinated if they have gone beyond 42 days between 1st and 2nd doses

[MaddyandMax]

13 minutes ago, dswallow said:

I think we basically see the current interpretation of "fully vaccinated" by Royal Caribbean allows for no real scrutiny of vaccine dose dates when both doses are the same brand.

Where the dates matter with specific minimum and maximum days between them is in the handful of allowed mixed doses they are now calling out specifically and accepting. Where there may be more wiggle room is if the mixed doses are at least both mRNA vaccines.

This will be the problem.  I suspect that the 42 days will be dropped for someone who did not get mixed vaccines but I'm worried for the roughly 1.5M Canadians with mixed doses (myself included - Pfizer/Moderna).  But the reasoning "should" be the same.  If they drop the date requirement for non-mixed mRNA vaccines it should be dropped for mixed doses. 

 

When I get my second dose I told the doctor I was concerned about travel.  She said it shouldn't be a problem once all the logistics are worked out.  She used the example of you can order a pizza from Domino's and Pizza Pizza.  Sure they may taste slightly different but at the end of the day it's still just pizza...  Or running shoes from Adidas and Nike.  They still are just running shoes and get you where you need to go.  We are talking about vaccines that are really only different in name and not in the science.

 

I've got my fingers crossed for my October cruise.  I'm still hopeful but more hopeful for my honeymoon cruise (11 years late) in March 2022 than I am for my October cruise

[MaddyandMax]

5 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

The CDC does consider Canadians, Americans and other nations as fully vaccinated.  It is Royal's interpretation of the policy that will prevent Canadians, Americans and other nations unvaccinated if they have gone beyond 42 days between 1st and 2nd doses

 

So many have been saying the "Canadian problem" is because of the CDC.  I've always disagreed thinking it was a misinterpretation of the CDC's guidelines by Royal.  If I ready between the lines you must also agree that this is Royal's decision and not the CDC's.

[DeanD]

1 hour ago, DHLuCruise said:

 

I know you're genuine at heart and trying to be helpful. That's sincerely appreciated. What you are seeing is frustration that people are continually correcting Canadians and others as if we don't know how to read the regulations. We do. 

 

The point I think everyone can agree upon is this is an INTERPRETATION of the regulation. What Canadians are concerned about is that the interpretation isn't consistent with the reality of efficacy on the ground.

 

We're not saying RC is evil here, we're trying to ask them to take a second look. Which it seems that they are. That's all we can ask.

I'm not trying to be anything other than a voice that says, as do you, that there are multiple ways to interpret this issue.  One is that of the most stringent interpretation, that of the FDA approval.  IMO the emotions don't play into it from a decision making standpoint.  It will change over time but the CDC is not known for making changes quickly.  RCL has a difficult job, that of coming up with "reasonable" requirements based on the various situations and countries their ships visit.  They want the business but they want to be as safe and consistent as possible both in general and to be able to keep sailing.  The hard core evidence for Pfizer and Moderna is what was presented to the FDA and the FDA acted on for approval.  That will change as more studies are done and that will take time.  

[Russ Lomas]

1 hour ago, MaddyandMax said:

When I get my second dose I told the doctor I was concerned about travel.  She said it shouldn't be a problem once all the logistics are worked out.  She used the example of you can order a pizza from Domino's and Pizza Pizza.  Sure they may taste slightly different but at the end of the day it's still just pizza... 

I want to be able to order my pizza from Sorrento's, not Domino's or Pizza Pizza.  It tastes so much better when you are actually ON the ship.  Please let me and my 2 doses of Pfizer 50 days apart board to get my fill of Sorrento's.

[MaddyandMax]

1 minute ago, Russ Lomas said:

I want to be able to order my pizza from Sorrento's, not Domino's or Pizza Pizza.  It tastes so much better when you are actually ON the ship.  Please let me and my 2 doses of Pfizer 50 days apart board to get my fill of Sorrento's.

Then be glad you are only dealing with one hurdle instead of 2 like me.  I'll get pizza wherever I can get it...

[CruisinCanuck63]

I don’t see this as a problem of Royal’s interpretation of any directive from the CDC or FDA guidelines.  As written, the policy seems rather clear that the 42 day limit applies to mixed doses.  
 

What we have here, and to no surprise, is a problem with Royal’s differing interpretations of their own policy. 

[Russ Lomas]

9 minutes ago, MaddyandMax said:

Then be glad you are only dealing with one hurdle instead of 2 like me.  I'll get pizza wherever I can get it...

I feel for you and anyone else who got mixed doses at the urging of their government and healthcare professionals.  I too hope that policy will be reversed soon.  One step at a time up that mountain.  Let's clear this first hurdle and then hope that while they are discussing this issue of 42 days, they are all gathered and put their heads together to also discuss other issues, like the mixed dose issue, so they can get all their employees on the same page when we ask these sort of questions.  

[Fabulous97]

On 7/26/2021 at 7:25 PM, scottbee said:

I'm curious. Does your vaccination record show it as different?  I'm in the same boat here in Canada, with my records showing

Dose 1: "Covisheild" (aka Indian AZ)
Dose 2: "Astra Zeneca"
 

Yep the batch numbers show on our vaccination record app. I think it’s the EU being angry with the U.K. for leaving the EU. Hopefully it will settle down as there are quite a number of countries that will not accept it.

[mabt]

2 hours ago, CruisinCanuck63 said:

I don’t see this as a problem of Royal’s interpretation of any directive from the CDC or FDA guidelines.  As written, the policy seems rather clear that the 42 day limit applies to mixed doses.  
 

What we have here, and to no surprise, is a problem with Royal’s differing interpretations of their own policy. 

 

Yes and no.  Definitely they need to get their story straight on whether or not the 42 day policy applies to a same-dose series as well.

 

But the mixed dose policy is a problem for many of us too, and drawing a line between mixed doses and same-manufacturer doses, at least where mRNA intervals are concerned, is completely arbitrary.  Nobody else draws this distinction, including the CDC.  Royal appears to have made it up themselves.  And this is, most likely, exactly why there is confusion over the same-manufacturer situation, because there's no rational reason to apply to one and not the other.  It's inconsistent.

 

I will be happy for others if the same-dose interval issue is resolved, and it would clear my husband to cruise.  But I had Pfizer / Moderna at 44 days, so if the mixed dose policy stands, we still don't sail.

 

And even if my problem is solved, that still leaves anyone who got AstraZeneca in the lurch.

 

So suggesting that there is no problem except that RCCL can't make up their minds about the same-dose mRNA interval is maybe a little short-sighted.  😉