Designed "The Olsen Way"

[Reebok]

Just returned 26/09.21 from the 15 nighter. Late booking, 2weeks before departure. Absolutely Fantastic. Fred Olsen Jnr joined us in Malaga and stayed until La Caruna, about a week. Great cabin 3353 very comfortable. Staff / Crew excellent in all departments, 2nd sitting in Aurora table 77. Dining excellent all round attention to detail 1st class. Rudy, Executive Chef in Colours n Tastes popped out for a chat, great guy credit to Fred Olsen ! . Put on 1/2 a stone, 3 formal nights dress shirt popping buttons by the 3rd. Captain regularly interacted on a daily basis with the passengers and at the gangway for disembarkation. Entertainment all round excellent, shows performed with relish, great fun. Bars could not have been better, third capacity surely helped here. Funky Blue in the crows nest were our favourite band. All in All recommend Borealis.

[Pentlands]

We were on Bolette late August/September and we were quite dissapointed.

 

The ship was old and tired and had severe rust in parts, looked quite good on the surafce but was poor when you looked a bit deeper. Quite a lot of rust that had been painted over and some not even painted.

 

In our room the drawers did not fit properly, the AC was just about a waste of time and that was a balcony suite and was vey expensive.

 

The food was also dissaapointing. The dinner menu was so limited usually a meat, a fish and a vegie and then some things on all the time. We paid to go to colours and Tastes 3 times just to get a reasonable choice, reasonable distancing between tables but the service was soooo slow. Mind you the service in the main dining room was pretty bad, and one luch time all the restaurants had to be closed, suspect propblems with staff or equipment (maybe it also ran off that faulty computer software that stranded us in Belfast). The last words from our lovely waiter  in the MDR was apologies for delays in service (Which were not down  to him or the team in the restaurant).

[richard_london]

I see on the FO website that they've updated the virtual tours page so you can have a look at the interiors of the new ships.  https://www.fredolsencruises.com/our-ships/virtual-tours

 

I guess it must have been difficult refitting two ships during the pandemic. Carnival, Azamara and Cunard are refitting their ships for service and are dry-docking them in the process.  From what I could make out checking the FO ships on Marine Traffic they were never drydocked, where they could have done a more thorough refit.

 

 

[Britboys]

On 10/12/2021 at 3:07 PM, richard_london said:

I see on the FO website that they've updated the virtual tours page so you can have a look at the interiors of the new ships.  https://www.fredolsencruises.com/our-ships/virtual-tours

 

I guess it must have been difficult refitting two ships during the pandemic. Carnival, Azamara and Cunard are refitting their ships for service and are dry-docking them in the process.  From what I could make out checking the FO ships on Marine Traffic they were never drydocked, where they could have done a more thorough refit.

 

 

They will probably require a dry dock next year to be in line with SOLAS requirements, so who knows, maybe more will be done then.

[Pentlands]

They were using the passengers to pay for the running of the ship whilst they tried to update it. Maybe that's why it was stuck in Belfast, using it as a dry dock. The smell or varnish, paint stripper and welding pervaded the ship at times, most draedful.

 

[cruisemom42]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:38 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

The itineraries as well as the speakers were the cause of why my two friends to defect from HAL.  They live in Florida and will fly half way around the world to join a ship that has an itinerary that attracts them!   

 

Indeed, I did the same for many years. It has been difficult adjusting to life without Voyages to Antiquity and Swan Hellenic to choose from. 

 

 

On 8/23/2021 at 4:35 PM, tring said:

 

The Swan and VOD ships were all small ones, which is one reason why they could do those itineraries.  The largest ship run by them was a Renaissance ship (30,000 ton approx), now Azara Pursuit.  The ship Swan had used mainly in the later years was less that half that size.  Braemar is a similar size to the Renaissance one, but not a long distance ship, (small cabins and not very stable so spends winters in the Caribbean). Balmoral is about 43,000 ton, so can do some good stuff, but the new ships are about 62,000 ton, so will be more limited again, hence our Black Watch itinerary loosing three out of our four ports  I am hoping they may be able to do some decent long distance itineraries, but we will see.

 

 

 

Off topic a bit, but what ever happened to the ship that Swan Hellenic was using toward the end of their run?  (She was called Minerva at the time but I think she was the second of that name....)  She was a very trim and well-maintained ship, pretty to look at from the outside (unlike the Aegean Odyssey which wasn't quite able to disguise her origins as a ferry....)

 

She was nice inside as well, with except of the fact that her main lounge, for shows and lectures, was all on a level and not raked, which made getting a good seat difficult.

[tring]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Off topic a bit, but what ever happened to the ship that Swan Hellenic was using toward the end of their run?  (She was called Minerva at the time but I think she was the second of that name....)  She was a very trim and well-maintained ship, pretty to look at from the outside (unlike the Aegean Odyssey which wasn't quite able to disguise her origins as a ferry....)

 

She was nice inside as well, with except of the fact that her main lounge, for shows and lectures, was all on a level and not raked, which made getting a good seat difficult.

 

She was originally designed as a Russian ship, hence had an Ice strengthened hull, but was adapted for Swan during the building as plans changed and I understood  Swan had a big input in her design as their cruise ship, Minerva, which replaced another ship they were using (name was something like Orpheus, but not sure of that as we were not cruising at that stage.  As I understood it she continued to sail as Minerva until the Renaisance ship was taken on to become Minerva II (? about 2003).  Swan was originally a private company, but was at some stage linked to P&O.  The two companies were aquired by the Carnival Corporation (? about 2005/early 2006)

She was the same ship, later sailing for All Leisure under the trade name of Swan Hellenic (that trade name had been bought by Lord Stirling from Carnival Corporation after they discontinued the brand).  Lord Stirling was in a partnership with All Leisure initially who were operating the Swan cruises and many of the original Swan staff were re employed.  I do know she was not owned by All Leisure, but leased to them and I think her owner was German, but was never easy to find out who it was.  Hence she reverted to her owner when All Leisure went down and no one seemed to hear what happened to her after that.  I am also not sure who actually owned her when she was sailing for the original Swan Hellenic - possibly she was only leased at that stage.

 

When the original Swan were using the Renaissance ship, I thought she was cruising for Saga in the summer and then in the Antarctic for the Southern hemisphere summer, hence when she was re-aquired by the new Swan (operated by All Leisure) she continued to do her planned winter sailings in the Antarctic which I think were then run jointly by the company who planned them as well as All Leisure under the Swan trade name.  I was not aware of her being Alexander Von Humboldt, which is mentioned in the link that I have given below, but nor do I know that is not true, so perhaps it was the case.  I know the original Swan Hellenic was discontinued in Spring 2007 as we sailed on her the previous autumn and that it was a year or two after that when the All Leisure re incarnation appeared.   The link I have given also mentions her current whereabouts, but I am not aware of her being used as a cruise ship since All Leisure went down.  A complete mystery as far as I know and she has often been mentioned on forums when other people were also unaware of her uses after the demise of All Leisure.  This link came up on a search and there is also a Wiki entry for her below, though I am never sure if Wiki entries have the complete accurate facts and I also know nothing of the first link I have given below.

 

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/MINERVA-IMO-9144196-MMSI-248503000

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Minerva

 

Minerva II subsequently became Royal Princess, Adonia sailing for P&O and now is Azamara Pursuit.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by tring

[rkacruiser]

On 11/28/2021 at 10:23 AM, tring said:

Hence she reverted to her owner when All Leisure went down and no one seemed to hear what happened to her after that. 

 

On behalf of my friends who loved this vessel and lack internet access, I did quite a bit of searching and came up empty on whatever happened to her.  A bit odd of a result, I think.

[tring]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

On behalf of my friends who loved this vessel and lack internet access, I did quite a bit of searching and came up empty on whatever happened to her.  A bit odd of a result, I think.

 

Yes, you normally can find some reference to things like that.  Interesting one of the links I picked up had a location for her in Greece, so looks like she may still exists, but location websites can be very unreliable, so who knows.  She could well have been re named, though I presume she has not been used as a cruise ship to be booked by the general public or we would likely have found something. 

 

I seem to remember DH looking into who owned her, but I think he would have had to pay for access to further information, so did not bother going any further.  Looks like one of the links I picked up yesterday had registered owners for her and looks like she was not owned by any of the cruise lines which ran her cruises - again if the info. is correct.  I could not easily find out anything about the owners though, so still a mystery.   

 

 

[twotravellersLondon]

On 11/28/2021 at 2:16 PM, cruisemom42 said:

Off topic a bit, but what ever happened to the ship that Swan Hellenic was using toward the end of their run?  (She was called Minerva at the time but I think she was the second of that name....) 

 

On 11/29/2021 at 8:58 PM, rkacruiser said:

On behalf of my friends who loved this vessel and lack internet access, I did quite a bit of searching and came up empty on whatever happened to her.  A bit odd of a result, I think.

 

On 11/29/2021 at 11:21 PM, tring said:

She could well have been re named, though I presume she has not been used as a cruise ship to be booked by the general public or we would likely have found something. 

 

I saw this thread ages ago but didn't connect that the Minerva had, in a previous incarnation, been the original Saga Pearl otherwise I would have responded much earlier.

 

Early in 2018, the Administrators of the All-Leisure Group was reported that the company's only asset a debt of £1.6 million owed by the Athol Shipping Group. The ASG was a subsidiary of the ALG and was responsible for chartering the Minerva from its "ultimate owner." They also reported that ASO had no assets and so the debt could not be paid. A long and sorrowful tale!

 

From what I understand, the Minerva was laid up in Marseille after ALG ended operations.

On the 18th of September 2017 the Minerva was sold by the superyacht broker, Peter Insull, to an client for an undisclosed sum. It was the largest ship every sold by the company. At the time, the company was unable to comment about the future of the vessel.

 

The speculation in the trade press at the time was that MV Minerva, would be rebuilt or converted into a charter yacht. As Peter Insull's yacht marketing had been involved in the deal there was also the suggestion that that there was a good chance that the that MV Minerva vessel would become a luxury super-yacht. If that had been the case MV Minerva would have been as one of the largest super-yachts in the world. So personally, I think that idea was a bit OTT.

 

I'm not sure what happened after that but I do know that the Minerva left Khalkis Greece on the morning of 28 March 2020 and arrived and docked in Eleusis, Greece, later that same day. She doesn't seem to have moved since.

 

As far as I know the MV Minerva is still registered in Malta and seems to be owned by the Levante International Trading Co., which seems to be based in Amman, Jordan but is a very complex group of companies.

 

MV Minerva is being maintained, has power and her on-board AIS is operational... you can locate her on the main sites

.

She is still registered as the MV Minerva and she is docked adjacent to Privatsea Marine Services S.A. at Eleusis. That company seems to have been dealing with the Minerva over the last couple of years.

 

Privatsea Marine Services S.A undertake for maintenance, light repairs, redesign and storage.  The company operates as a tax-free zone and can, if need be, provide the ship with; power, telecommunications, water, waste, fuel, storage and 24-hour security. 

 

Privatsea Marine Services also deals with charters and sales and is currently offering the MV Minerva for charter as a Boutique Cruise Ship or alternatively for sale... at €35 million. The brochure can be found at the address below.

 

So the good new is... that we may, in the future, see this once great little ship on the high seas!

 

https://www.privatsea.com/images/charter-sales/yacht_for_charter/minerva/minerva-brochure_2018-11-29.pdf

[tring]

2 hours ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

 

 

 

I saw this thread ages ago but didn't connect that the Minerva had, in a previous incarnation, been the original Saga Pearl otherwise I would have responded much earlier.

 

 

Wow, thanks a lot for that information and link, I wonder if she will emerge into use as a cruise ship again.  Not any real difference from what I remember and even the lounge names have remained.  A lot of work was done on her during her time under All Leisure, with more in the way of upmarket cabins (balconies).  Not that her cruises were cheap in any cabin, but a lot was included and it was a very special atmosphere on board.  The portholes were very large (2 per cabin) and we were upgraded from our inside to one of those for our last sailing to Iceland/St Kilda etc.  I remember remarking that those portholes were worth £1,000 a piece, for what I think was something like a 12 or 14  night cruise.  In her later days she was reported to have quite bad vibration low down and to the back of the ship (sounded worse than it had been previously), so quite possibly something to do with that extra work played some part in that.  The propulsion system was changed to help her maneuverability, which, we thought, may have done it, though we are not engineers or similar........

 

Certainly as time has gone on it has become more and more difficult to find a ship of a decent size that can be used for unusual destinations (so prices could poss be hiked to make it a worthwhile venture), though there is, of course, nothing to say she would revert to the Swan style of itineraries, or Saga itineraries for that matter as I did feel they were offering some very good, unusual itineraries with their smaller ships.  Sailing round the Med would not have any appeal to us.

 

Yes, as I understood, between her two spells as Minerva for the two incarnations of Swan, she was used as Saga Pearl in summers and then stalked Antarctia for our winter season, (for at least part of that time anyway).  When Lord Sterling and All Leisure re started the Swan brand, she continued her sailings which were planned for the Antarctic for her first season as a joint venture (Swan + the previous operator), so the cruises for her first season as Minerva were sold by both companies.

 

I would be very interested to hear any more in the future, if anyone gets information of anything happening.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by tring

[twotravellersLondon]

1 hour ago, tring said:

Certainly as time has gone on it has become more and more difficult to find a ship of a decent size that can be used for unusual destinations (

 

Many thanks for your comments. I do think that you're perfectly  right about it being more difficult to find a ship of a decent size... something that screams sea, sun, waves, wide open skies, birds and dolphins... we had hoped that was what the "Olsen way" would have delivered.

 

What is the "Olsen Way?" Well, the only ship that we've even been on designed (and redesigned) by the Olsen Family was the wonderful Black Prince. 

 

It was a long time ago... but we had cabin 708... complete with wood panelling an ancient bath-tub and furniture very firmly bolted down. (We realised why in the first Atlantic storm!) We ate in the Fleur de Lys restaurant enjoyed simple entertainments in the two-tier Neptune Lounge. We thought that it was a lovely little ship. There was lots of deck-space, and observation area at the front of the ship and, at breakfast, a chef service newly made omelettes from a little hatch in the Balblom Restaurant at the back of the Marquee deck. And of course it had its own floating outdoor leisure centre that extended out of the rear of the ship from the Marina Deck.

 

The Black Prince  was the best of Fred Olsen... reasonably priced, friendly staff, good food, comfortable for the period and it took us to unbelievably exciting places. It gave us our first sighting of an iceberg, our first blue whale and our first ever glimpse of the Greenland icecap.

 

So, when way back at the beginning of 2017, Fred Olsen Jun discussed with the travel press how he was beginning to envisage the future for the company and the possibility of new purpose-built ships... we were really excited.

 

The Company had surveyed Loyalty members in June 2017 to find out what they would like in a cruise and what they would be willing to pay. Questions included the size of the ship, all-inclusive drinks, excursions etc, itineraries including hard-to-reach destinations that few got to see, price-point and the type of fellow-passengers. Another survey very specifically asked about what potential passengers would like to see on a purpose-built 600 pax exploration ship.

 

Early in 2018, Fred Olsen Jun announced that there were plans "on the drawing board" for new ocean vessels. He explained that, any new ships would be smaller ocean ships which is what FOCLs wanted as a brand and what the Company's customers wanted. As far as we were concerned.... Fred was right.

 

In 2019 Fred Olsen Jun discussed with the travel press that "A series" of 600-passenger "exploratory ships" would be introduced. He added it wouldn't make commercial sense to order just one purpose-built vessel and that more would follow. Asked if there would be as many as four new ships, he answered with a smile: "Why not?"

 

Fred Olsen Jun was reported as saying that the company was talking to yards to see which one could produce the right design of small ship to suit FOCL's passengers. At a lunch for media in London, Fred Olsen Jun said: "A ship around 600 passengers will give us the variety of restaurants – four different restaurants – pubs, oriental rooms for teas, observatory lounge, balconies and all that plus RIBs (rigid inflatable boats) and specialised tenders, so we can take you to St Tropez in high heels and a summer dress in an air-conditioned boat while tender boats are doing the tender service."

 

Fred assured journalists; "We don’t want to build one 600-passenger ship, we want to build a series which is why we’re talking to shipyards. The ships will be able to complement [our current fleet] and give us a new opportunity on destinations."

 

We also had a more detailed email survey that seems to indicate a starting price of £300 pppn, small ports, a bespoke service for what we wanted to do onshore, a concierge service available to us on the quay and all sorts of other exciting possibilities. Although we though the price was tad high.

 

In August 2019, Mike Rodwell, the MD at the time, was quoted as saying to the press, “conditions are right” for a new ship build and predicted his replacement Peter Deer, who was just about to take over as MD, would oversee the project.

 

So we had the vision that Fred would be offering of bright, airy, small ships with lots of deck space, bigger cabins, a bit of the Scandinavian styling that we've got used to in hotels in Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Finland, an exhilarating choice of eateries and exciting itineraries to new uncrowded destinations. We were immensely excited by Fred's vision of a series of new ships designed the "Olsen Way."

 

What we have instead, the Bolette and the Borealis, seems to be the total antithesis of what we were looking forward to. Although we've not been on either ship as yet, we have friends who have, we've scrutinised reviews, devoured photographs and looked for measured opinions... we don't want to be unfair... and certainly wouldn't dismiss these ships as "blocks of flats!" as we've seen some do.

 

However our impression is that compared to a ship like the Braemar, useable outside deck space for relaxation and a decent unobstructed view of the sea is less good...especially as the prom deck has been "sold" to the terrace cabins. (Something similar just didn't work on the Boudicca... in our view.) Our impression is that the interiors of the ship seem to be inward looking, and potentially a bit dark... like lots of American ships in the 1990s... and so diametrically different from the light airy effects created in modern architecture and many new-build ships these days. From the pictures that we've seen... some of the public areas in these "new" ships are far more psychedelic than we would appreciate.

 

So after having been sitting waiting with bated breath since early in 2017 to see Fred Jun's concept of a fleet of exploration ships... and really buying into what we thought was the "Olsen way", we're a wee bit deflated by the current offering.

 

However, perhaps we may one day see his fleet of exploration ships.

[richard_london]

18 hours ago, twotravellersLondon said:

What we have instead, the Bolette and the Borealis, seems to be the total antithesis of what we were looking forward to.

I sadly have to agree with you.  Due to the pandemic I lost two cruises with Fred.Olsen, one on the Braemar and one on the Black Watch.  I haven't booked replacement cruises with them because the Braemar's return to service keeps getting pushed back, and now isn't until the end of April 2023.  The new ships don't have the exterior elegance of the Black Watch or Boudicca, sadly.

 

One thing I've noticed is that all the mass market brands, whichever level they are pitched at are all introducing larger and larger ships.  P&O has shed all of its smaller ships, Cunard is now mass-market luxury and the new Queen Anne is huge.  The new ships are much larger than those they replace and they don't fit the "smaller is better" concept Fred are pushing now.  I, like you, wish they would go smaller and think these purchases which will undoubtedly be a success for Fred are taking the company in a different direction for that pointed in your post.  What direction is Fred going with these ships? 

 

I've only sailed on the Balmoral but she is a fine ship, easy to get round, and you don't feel overwhelmed with other passengers.  Looking at the virtual tour of the Braemar she has the same feel.

 

With so many ships sent for scrap due to the pandemic there are very little future options for Fred when it comes to second hand vessels that could be drafted in when they want to replace the Balmoral and Braemar.  I hope that doesn't happen soon, but only the Braemar can squeeze through the Cornith Canal and only the these two ships can do the Kiel Canal (which the Black Watch and Boudicca).  Second hand tonnage is cheaper, but then it would mean bigger ships that the Bolette and Borealis.

 

If they want to keep the "smaller is better" concept in the future they would have to go down the direction of new builds.  Then finally, we could see what the "Olsen Way" is, not only in terms of style of the ships but in the direction they are taking the company.

[tring]

I cannot help but think that the Renaissance ships are just what is being described in both of the previous posts.  Real expedition ships as new builds seem to cost more like £500 pppn which is above what we (and I am pretty sure most Fred customers) would consider paying, though I must admit for a real expedition itinerary, we may well consider it, probably as a one off though.

 

The other new cruise ships of any sort of reasonable size, all seem to be more of less clones of each other.  Basically 60,000 ton or thereabouts and all balcony cabins, so again not that small and no cheaper alternative to go on those ships if you do not want all the extras that some of them include (if you are not interested in what is given as the extras).  Most seem to be marketed as luxury ships as well - again we do not particularly want the sort of luxury that is offered.  A decent standard of cruise to some really good destinations fits our requirements to a T - we do not need more.

 

I wonder if Fred would have gone on to new builds if the pandemic had not happened.  I am not totally convinced he would have done as I had heard of Fred Jnr mentioning similar a few years prior to 2019 and nothing appeared. - but we will see.  It is quite understandable that companies are not planning new ships and investing big amounts at present and TBF, I think taking the advantage of two reasonable sized, though not what I call small, ships at a good price was a good move at the time.  P&O still have some very good prices on Aurora and Arcadia, with balconies at a good price, though I do not realistically see them around for much longer on the size/efficiency basis.  I would love to see Braemar come back into service, but strongly suspect what happens to her will have a lot to do with how Fred's other ships perform as cruising (hopefully) gets back to some sort of normality.

 

We too like the opportunity to relax and be able to look out to sea (particularly on summer cruises with the long days), in practice though most Fred passengers seem more into the idea of attending shows or other "entertainments", so there are still a good number who will cruise quite a lot on the newer Fred offerings IMO.  We have done a few cruises with Fred, since covid, but the Liverpool departures have a great attraction to us and a lot of people live many miles from Southampton.  His itineraries have tempted us to the southern ports for a couple of cruises, with the odd good itinerary still taking place, though they are not up to what was possible with the smaller ships.

 

A crystal ball would be handy, but meanwhile we want to make the most of what we can do at present, before even more possibilities diminish,

 

Barbara

  

[richard_london]

2 hours ago, tring said:

I cannot help but think that the Renaissance ships are just what is being described in both of the previous posts.  Real expedition ships as new builds seem to cost more like £500 pppn which is above what we (and I am pretty sure most Fred customers) would consider paying, though I must admit for a real expedition itinerary, we may well consider it, probably as a one off though.

 

The other new cruise ships of any sort of reasonable size, all seem to be more of less clones of each other.  Basically 60,000 ton or thereabouts and all balcony cabins, so again not that small and no cheaper alternative to go on those ships if you do not want all the extras that some of them include (if you are not interested in what is given as the extras).  Most seem to be marketed as luxury ships as well - again we do not particularly want the sort of luxury that is offered.  A decent standard of cruise to some really good destinations fits our requirements to a T - we do not need more.

I was more thinking of Balmoral/Braemar sized ships, rather than expedition-type ships as these seem to command a premium for prices.  Perhaps the economics doesn't work any more for Balmoral/Braemar sized ships?  For example Cunard and especially P&O are accelerating towards larger ships and having cruised with them the larger ships can be a bit much. I am hoping this isn't what will happen with Fred Olsen in the future, but Ambassador Cruise Lines born out of CMV is going with larger ships as all the smaller, older ships have gone for scrap. But, in this day and age, do small ships still make money at Fred's traditional prices?  (Your comment about the Braemar got me worried, I do hope she stays in service).  Fred Olsen's offering pre-pandemic was different, and...it's hard to describe....cosier, more comforting?   The itineraries were definitely more distinctive. I can't really afford beyond a week for a cruise and when that is your limit with Cunard and P&O you find the itineraries are all the same year in year out.  

 

Advertising Bolette and Borealis as smaller ships is fine, since compared to Royal Caribbean and MSC they are definitely smaller, but they are big ships however Fred presents them (they can't do the itineraries of the Black Watch and Boudicca).  And they seem to be more expensive, as a solo traveller.  I know things change and the pandemic has forced these changes to some extent, but I feel a bit sad, as the Fred Olsen product I've experienced before is not really available to me anymore.  T

[tring]

53 minutes ago, richard_london said:

I was more thinking of Balmoral/Braemar sized ships, rather than expedition-type ships as these seem to command a premium for prices.  Perhaps the economics doesn't work any more for Balmoral/Braemar sized ships?  For example Cunard and especially P&O are accelerating towards larger ships and having cruised with them the larger ships can be a bit much. I am hoping this isn't what will happen with Fred Olsen in the future, but Ambassador Cruise Lines born out of CMV is going with larger ships as all the smaller, older ships have gone for scrap. But, in this day and age, do small ships still make money at Fred's traditional prices?  (Your comment about the Braemar got me worried, I do hope she stays in service).  Fred Olsen's offering pre-pandemic was different, and...it's hard to describe....cosier, more comforting?   The itineraries were definitely more distinctive. I can't really afford beyond a week for a cruise and when that is your limit with Cunard and P&O you find the itineraries are all the same year in year out.  

 

Advertising Bolette and Borealis as smaller ships is fine, since compared to Royal Caribbean and MSC they are definitely smaller, but they are big ships however Fred presents them (they can't do the itineraries of the Black Watch and Boudicca).  And they seem to be more expensive, as a solo traveller.  I know things change and the pandemic has forced these changes to some extent, but I feel a bit sad, as the Fred Olsen product I've experienced before is not really available to me anymore.  T

 

I have heard nothing to suggest Braemar will not come back into service, which I need to clarify, since false rumours start so easily.  My thoughts partly came from a reply I was given by a Fred Captain at the end of 2021, when I asked if they were starting to make any money.  He said they were still loosing it "big time", though did say not as badly so as when the ships were laid up.  That obviously needs to be turned around somehow, but as we approach spring and summer, hopefully things will change.

 

I had seen suggested occupancy levels that are needed to break even on the P&O ships recently.  Although I cannot remember the exact figures, there was certainly a much bigger difference between Iona and the smallest ships than I expected (I think it was something like twice the occupancy that was needed on the smaller ships, whereas Iona could turn a profit at something like 35% occupancy), though that would take into account the onboard spend she can generate and, of course.  That also explains the price differences for the respective P&O ships.

 

Fred has never been into trying to push onboard profits and I am not so sure that would go down well with his clientele either.  Fred's new ships also have much larger cabins, which we have appreciated, though again not an essential for us, but having quite a lot of outside deck space for that size of ship, (even if fully occupied), we do appreciate.  In this age, especially after the losses experienced, It will indeed take a bit of a price hike  from previous years to even make a small profit, but hopefully the summer will produce better times and the overheads will not be so high if restrictions ease.  All a wait and see situation, like with so much theses days.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by tring

[twotravellersLondon]

6 hours ago, richard_london said:

But, in this day and age, do small ships still make money at Fred's traditional prices?  (Your comment about the Braemar got me worried, I do hope she stays in service).  Fred Olsen's offering pre-pandemic was different, and...it's hard to describe....cosier, more comforting?  

 

The Olsen Way is for "cabins to be called cabins," "ships to look like ships" and for "the onboard experience to be uncrowded, warm and civilised."

 

Your point hits the nail fairly and squarely on the head. Small ships just can't break even at budget prices... just look at any of the accounts of the companies running small budget cruise ships over the last 10 or 20 years... and so many companies that are now history. 

 

 All of the financial figures are public and It's no secret that before Covid, it cost, on average, £50,000,000 a year to keep each and every one of Fred's ship cruising. To even break even, FOCLs had to achieve an occupancy level of over 70%. Even when ships were laid up, it was costing about £4 million a quarter.

 

FOCLs was making a very small profit between 2015 and 2019... but it was only a few pounds per person per night on average.... and that included everything ... the entire spend per person; gratuities, excursions, spa, drinks and on-board shopping.

 

Cruise companies with smaller ships have few options. They can raise prices, introduce economies or buy bigger ships. FOCLs have now done all three.  Increasing prices and introducing economies resulted in occupancy levels declining between 2009 and 2019: the number of passenger nights on board dropped from about 1.3 million to just over 1 million. 

 

FOCLs has now increased his capacity from about 3,879 beds to about 4,959 beds... at a time that FOCLs had only been filling an average of only  2,792 of those beds over the four ships over a year as a whole. It will be very interesting to see how he tries to fill these beds with profitable clients in what's now a very aggressively competitive market.... when companies like SAGA are offering like for like balconies and suites at a lower price than FOCLs and Ambassador are rapidly moving into the budget market.

 

And you're absolutely right about the size of the Bolette and the Borealis. Each is twice the tonnage of either the Black Watch or the Boudicca and they will be more expensive to operate... for instance, mooring charges are based on tonnage. As ships... what's advertised just doesn’t appeal to us. I'm not taken-in  by the "passenger to space ratio idea on these ships... it's simply the cubic volume on enclosed space divided by the maximum number of passengers... so the atrium is counted, the area enclosed by the swimming pool roof and the huge central void in the main dining room... all useless space.

 

Like you I very much hope that Braemar will cruise on for many a year and become a much-loved vintage cruiser.  There is great potential there and FOCLs has a perfect small ship for those who want to enjoy a holiday at sea. (You may know that as the Crown Dynasty she had an identical sister ship, the Crown Jewel, which by 2017 had become the MV Gemini before being renamed the Blue World One in 2019. She was to undergo a $75 million refit which included gutting and redesigning the top four decks.) If she can keep cruising... so can the Braemar... but without the redesign!

 

One salient fact is that the losses made by the cruise industry over the last couple of years is quite astonishing. Individual companies have borrowed not millions, not tens of millions but hundreds of millions and there is just no way that they can pass these losses onto customers... if they want to retain their client base. In my opinion, success will be to maximise capacity by offering a value money product and filling every single cabin with happy cruiser who feel that they're getting value for money and a wonderful experience.

 

If the Olsen Way is for "cabins to be called cabins," "ships to look like ships" and for "the onboard experience to be uncrowded, warm and civilised" there can be few better ships to provide that than the Braemar.

[richard_london]

11 hours ago, twotravellersLondon said:

If the Olsen Way is for "cabins to be called cabins," "ships to look like ships" and for "the onboard experience to be uncrowded, warm and civilised" there can be few better ships to provide that than the Braemar.

Thank you for your comments, there are very insightful.

 

I had seen about Blueworld and their plans for the MV Gemini.  I always wished that Fred had purchased her as a running mate to the Braemar.  It would have been an excellent combination.

 

I hadn't considered that Fred could get squeezed by Saga and Ambassador.  Ambassador have already lined up a second ship and seem keen to expand.  I wonder how this will all work out.  The Saga ships and the Bolette/Borealis are very similar in terms of dimensions but the Fred Olsen pair have the higher gross tonnage (+4600 GRT), but as you say all that extra enclosed space doesn't necessarily advantage passengers.  Looking at the virtual tours of the Saga ships they definitely have the advantage over the Fred pair (also, they aren't 20 years old already) when it comes to cabins, public spaces and the overall feel.

 

You said capacity had increased from about 3,879 beds to about 4,959 beds, have Fred Olsen gone too big with these new ships, if they haven't been filling them?

[twotravellersLondon]

2 hours ago, richard_london said:

I hadn't considered that Fred could get squeezed by Saga and Ambassador.  Ambassador have already lined up a second ship and seem keen to expand.  I wonder how this will all work out. 

 

Many thanks for your thought-provoking comment.

 

I think that you may well be right that FOCLs got too big, too quickly. 

 

The opportunity to pick up these two ships for a song came at a time that everybody in the industry knew that CMV was in a bit of a financial pickle and the purchase may have seemed to be opportune at the time when many people thought that Covid would be all done by Christmas and someone else could pick up CMV's client base.

 

The problem is that the pandemic has hit the cruise industry and passenger confidence very hard. The 2021 CLIA report suggested that only 74%  of pre-covid cruisers are likely to cruise again in the next few years.

So competition is likely to remain fierce and FOCLs don't seem to be winning at the moment. To give a better idea, there are four ships doing Iceland and Greenland from the UK this summer. The number of days vary but the "from" pppd for the least expensive cabin; is Ambassador £76, Princess £149 and Fred Olsen £180... so Fred is much more expensive for the most basic cabin. For balcony cabins (not terraces with no balcony) the prices are Princess £154, Ambassador £173, SAGA £306 and FOCLs £412. While SAGA are sold out and aren't advertising the cruise... FOCLs still seems to have lots of cabins available.

It just doesn't look good for FOCLs unless they can come up with a business plan that increases their market share... something that they have failed to do for the last ten years. Perhaps the Bolete and the Borealis may be better suited to a particular type of mass-market. 

 

However, I would love to see FOCLs use the Braemar as an exploration (rather than an expedition  ship visiting lots of hard to get to, out of the way places and I would be happy to ditch five course "fine-dining" dinners for the choice of wholesome food like we've experienced on expedition ships and I would be happy to ditch the same old show company performance for a really good introduction to the area that we're sailing in or something else appropriate... again as we've experienced on expedition ships. 

 

And... I think that lots of other people would be sold on the idea as well. It would after all be the "Olsen way"... To quote... "In our world, smaller is better, and we believe in keeping the experience on board uncrowded, warm and civilised - treating passengers as guests, like the family-run business we are."

[richard_london]

30 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

The opportunity to pick up these two ships for a song came at a time that everybody in the industry knew that CMV was in a bit of a financial pickle and the purchase may have seemed to be opportune at the time when many people thought that Covid would be all done by Christmas and someone else could pick up CMV's client base.

 Yes, at the start of the pandemic it must have seemed a sound investment but one predicated on the assumption that Covid would come and go quickly and we would be able to resume cruising promptly.  Assuming deal with HAL/Carnival was preferential, the cost of a light refit (mainly soft furnishings and an external repaint (I don't think Bolette and Borelais were drydocked), then the economics must have looked favourable if they were able to fill the ships to capacity.  I imagine they hadn't considered the reduced occupancy rules would go on for so long.  If the marketing emails are any indication, it looks like there are cabins to fill on lots of cruises.

 

I haven't cruised since November 2019 and at the start of the pandemic I think I had four cruises booked, mostly of shortish duration.  What with cancelling and shifting cruises, I have switched so many times - 16 missed cruises, and still the four booked into the future.  So I can understand the reluctance to return to cruising. 

 

I was looking at a Northern Lights cruise and compared Ambassador,  Cunard, P&O and Fred and Fred's was the most expensive by a significant amount for me as a solo traveller. I'm not sure what the difference in price gives me.  For a cruise of the same duration, for the price of an interior cabin on Fred I can get a balcony with Cunard and P&O, so for me the decision becomes less about preferring smaller ships than the cost, since the itineraries are broadly the same ports of call.

 

So if, with the new bigger ships are going to the same ports of call as other lines, but for higher costs, Fred are relying on brand loyalty.  However, their product is changing, so perhaps they are testing that loyalty?  I will wait and see what the remaining 2023 itineraries looks like, hopefully there will be some distinctive Braemar and Balmoral cruises I can consider.

[twotravellersLondon]

2 hours ago, richard_london said:

So if, with the new bigger ships are going to the same ports of call as other lines, but for higher costs, Fred are relying on brand loyalty.  However, their product is changing, so perhaps they are testing that loyalty?  I will wait and see what the remaining 2023 itineraries looks like, hopefully there will be some distinctive Braemar and Balmoral cruises I can consider.

 

You're right about the fact that there was no drydocking.

 

For a time the four ships rode it out in the Firth of Forth and then the all moored in the Babcock yard at Rosyth... FOCLs took everything that they reasonably could from the Black Watch and the Boudicca... all of Fred Jun's paintings, the furniture and suchlike and that was later transferred to the Bolette and the Borealis. The two old HAL ships were sold to Bonheur, FOCL's ultimate owner, for $37m... fully payable in 5 years but finance arrange by HAL. The two old HAL ships were stripped and lightly refitted at the Damen Shipyards in Schiedam, near Rotterdam of everything that HAL wanted before they were transferred to Rosyth.

 

We really do sympathise with you that you've had so many cruises delayed. Immediately before covid we had one biggie booked with Fred and we were able to have that cancelled under FOCL's cooling off period in the company T&Cs of the time.... although FOCLs didn't like it and we were made to feel a bit uncomfortable and made to wait for our deposit. That was a shame... because we were at a pretty high level in the Loyalty Club and we had often cruised with FOCLs three of four times a year.

 

When cruising resumed, we found that the prices were astronomical... a short non-stop trip around a bit of the UK was going to cost us the same price as a similar cabin had in the Caribbean for two weeks not long before covid.

 

Admitted we had normally booked on board, taken a 10% discount and a suite upgrade but the "welcome back" prices were far, far more that we considered the cruises to be worth. If as you suggest, FOCLs "are relying on brand loyalty, they will be disappointed in our case. 

 

We used to meet lots of lovely people on board who believed that Fred was "excellent," "first-class," "fabulous" and so on. Many would never dream of travelling with anyone else... indeed most hadn't for decades and had never seen the inside of a modern ship.

 

But the world has changed: CLIA has reported that cruise consumer confidence has been severely dented and about a quarter of the people who were cruising in 2019 are not likely to cruise again in the next few years. In the absence of onboard discounts.... many people like ourselves have looked very carefully at the markets and found that we can cruise far more economically than with FOCLs. 

 

Also most other-cruise lines have an understandable sales strategy... they start high and go lower or they do the opposite. FOCLs seem to operate a flexible cruise-pricing strategy so that prices can go up and down and up like a roller coaster. What struck us was that not long before covid we had a cabin on the top deck... discounts and upgrades etc... to thank for that but still costly... what we noticed was that of the 20 or so cabins, only three were occupied and one of those was by a chap who had something to do with the company.

 

Like you, we will also wait and see what the remaining 2023 itineraries looks like and hopefully we'll have an interesting cruise on the  Braemar or the Balmoral. In the meantime we have a cruise booked with SAGA this year and we're on the priority list for the new 2023 SAGA season.

 

If the "Olsen way" now is to is to offer pretty standard itineraries, cut costs and raise prices to a level that just can't compete with the competition... a goody bag of crisps in the cabin and a glass of pop and a mini-sausage roll with the captain at a loyalty reception... just won't win us back.

[richard_london]

1 hour ago, twotravellersLondon said:

Like you, we will also wait and see what the remaining 2023 itineraries looks like and hopefully we'll have an interesting cruise on the  Braemar or the Balmoral. In the meantime we have a cruise booked with SAGA this year and we're on the priority list for the new 2023 SAGA season.

Fingers crossed.  Hope you enjoy the Saga cruise.  They do look nice ships!