Tipping now more important than ever

[ilikeanswers]

35 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Actually, this whole thread is not really relevant to the article posted by cruisecritic that tipping is more important than ever. The point of that article was that with the reduced number of passengers tipping the crew was more important than ever because of their reduced income with less passengers to tip them. When you come down to it, none of these 600+ posts has dealt with that premise.

 

My first post on this thread was addressing the OP's premise so there is at least one 😂. 

[ldubs]

16 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

 

Then there is no need for tips at all is there? I don't have a problem with the basic 'theory' of individuals giving tips, as it's their money to splash around, purely as a voluntary exercise. But theory never works in practice, and the voluntary has changed to compulsory, so it affects other people. Is a waiter worth more than a healthcare assistant to some people, if they both earn minimum wage.

 

I guess we could say there is no need for most other's cultural norms, especially if we don't like them.   I guess the term healthcare assistant could cover a variety of positions.  In my neck of the woods it would be incorrect to think the monetary value of a CNA, LVN, RN, or PA is less than a server.  

 

16 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

Steves is an American, and Frommers is an American publication, so are going to write from an American perspective even if they try to be neutral. That's how life works. British publications will very often be from a London perspective, and London is as culturally distant from where I live as California is (probably).

 

 

I suspect Steves and Frommer know how to research, as well as a whole bunch of other established travel guides.   But I can see how London would have a heavy influence.   

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, under Mr. Lanky's definition, RCI, Celebrity, Princess and NCL all have ships sailing from Southampton this year.  Are these "US ships"?

 

I think the one thing I've learned in this thread it facts don't mean anything if they don't support some folk's beliefs.  

Edited March 1, 2022 by ldubs

[ilikeanswers]

43 minutes ago, ldubs said:

I suspect Steves and Frommer know how to research, as well as a whole bunch of other established travel guides.   But I can see how London would have a heavy influence.   

 

There was a scandal a few years back with Lonely Planet where it turned out some of the writers had never actually travelled to the countries they were writing about despite claiming so. My own experience I find guide books are good for a generalised overview but I don't take them too seriously. To me they look at everything from a tourist perspective and don't give enough local experience. I found expat blogs a lot more informative as they give both the foreign and local perspectives.  

[ldubs]

10 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

There was a scandal a few years back with Lonely Planet where it turned out some of the writers had never actually travelled to the countries they were writing about despite claiming so. My own experience I find guide books are good for a generalised overview but I don't take them too seriously. To me they look at everything from a tourist perspective and don't give enough local experience. I found expat blogs a lot more informative as they give both the foreign and local perspectives.  

 

There will always be outliers and bad players.  I tend to agree with the use of blogs like you describe.   I've found them to be beneficial.  

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Actually, this whole thread is not really relevant to the article posted by cruisecritic that tipping is more important than ever. The point of that article was that with the reduced number of passengers tipping the crew was more important than ever because of their reduced income with less passengers to tip them. When you come down to it, none of these 600+ posts has dealt with that premise.

 

The nature of tipping posts. They always derail it seems.  

[KBs mum]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Actually, this whole thread is not really relevant to the article posted by cruisecritic that tipping is more important than ever. The point of that article was that with the reduced number of passengers tipping the crew was more important than ever because of their reduced income with less passengers to tip them. When you come down to it, none of these 600+ posts has dealt with that premise.

We have, those advocating for a non tipping culture with decent salaries pontead out several times that this would mean income is not affected by factors beyond the employees control, which would include customer numbers. 

Not all cruise lines have a tipping culture, therefore tipping the crews is not necessary on all lines, and would not be necessary on any if all were non tipping. 

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

I think the one thing I've learned in this thread it facts don't mean anything if they don't support some folk's beliefs.  

You quoted a reply to something I had said, did you read my explanation of why I said it and a subsequent clarification?

In those I made a point of saying I was not arguing about the reality of the situation, but that customer perception of ownership could be different. 

[Peter Lanky]

If so much shipping in the world is Liberian, how is is that it has one of the lowest GDP per capital in the world comparable with other countries surrounding it? With all this shipping that apparently does not belong to the country whose name is at the top of the paperwork, but is Liberian, then the nation should be incredibly wealthy. Similarly with other businesses that register a company in a tax haven to avoid paying their dues, and following the rules.

 

I am a little disappointed with myself for falling into the trap set by chengkp75 by saying that no American ships were departing Miami in March, as a catalyst to show off his no doubt great knowledge of flags of convenience to his disciples. However my position remains firm, and Azamara ships are not Maltese.

 

As for Mike981 blocking me, that is rather petty. I would only block somebody if they indulged in serious abuse, which thankfully has not happened on this thread yet, and the abuse has been mild and somewhat one sided. Similarly with somebody who says they wouldn't want to be sat at the same table as 'certain people' on a cruise, without giving a thought that conversations in real life are very different to discussions online.

 

As for the way the discussion has moved, then it is no different from many other discussions where a new element is introduced, and the original subject has been departed from. The topic of tipping has been discussed many times before and will be many times again with the same stalemate being reached. However I happen to like a good discussion where people disagree with each other, and so must many others because you are still here posting. I have learned some new words and some interesting concepts during this topic, so it's not been wasted. 

 

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

My first post on this thread was addressing the OP's premise so there is at least one 😂. 

At least one out of soon to be 700, and so long ago.

[Peter Lanky]

10 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Actually, this whole thread is not really relevant to the article posted by cruisecritic that tipping is more important than ever. The point of that article was that with the reduced number of passengers tipping the crew was more important than ever because of their reduced income with less passengers to tip them. When you come down to it, none of these 600+ posts has dealt with that premise.

 

Of course if the crew members were paid a proper salary and not being expected to rely on outside sources to top up their income, then the reduced number of passengers would have no effect.

Then the onus would be on the employer to plan how to deal with any lost revenue like so many other businesses have had to do around the world.

[Peter Lanky]

On 2/6/2022 at 10:55 AM, chengkp75 said:

 

Do you really think that if the cruise line eliminated the DSC, that your cruise fare would remain the same?  Nope, the fare would increase by the same amount.

 

Seeing as somebody has suggested that the discussion has drifted off topic, I have gone back to the start and read the first few pages, and out of this long post I refer to this comment.

 

Of course we don't expect it to remain the same, and yes we would expect the advertised fare to raise by the same amount. In fact it wouldn't be a problem for me if it was higher, as long as I knew that nobody was going to ask for more money after having paid for my cruise.

 

I can't see how there can be any objection to this, as the cruise line has the benefit of nobody being allowed to opt out of this DSC. If this was adopted by all cruise lines, and there is a definite shift to this in the industry, then there can be no objection on the grounds of somebody else appearing to offer a lower fare, because we will all know where we stand.

 

If some people then want to, or feel that the culture of their country compels them to give extra then it should be up to them and done completely informally otherwise we drift back to where we started. There need be no 'recommended amounts', no complex calculations, no misunderstandings, no bad feeling and people of all nations would end up happy being able to do their own thing.

[cruisemom42]

10 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

There was a scandal a few years back with Lonely Planet where it turned out some of the writers had never actually travelled to the countries they were writing about despite claiming so. My own experience I find guide books are good for a generalised overview but I don't take them too seriously. To me they look at everything from a tourist perspective and don't give enough local experience. I found expat blogs a lot more informative as they give both the foreign and local perspectives.  

 

I use different sources for different types of things. Steves' books are good for giving basic logistical information and he has good self-guided walking tours. Blue Guides I love for their detailed information about art. Oxford Archaeological Guides are wonderful for ancient sites and museums but they only exist for a few places.

 

Nowadays one is foolish to ignore the resources on the web as well. Especially when I am planning to do things on my own (most of the time), I always double or even triple-check opening hours on the official web site of the place, as well as looking for any closures/disruptions. Google maps is great for checking walking distances and creating one's own walking tours.

 

Hotels and restaurants I almost always research online only. Things can change rapidly for both, and I don't want to depend on recommendations that are several years old by the time they are printed in a book. In some places (especially Italy and France) I also like to ask locals I meet for suggestions. 

 

 

[ontheweb]

5 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

Of course if the crew members were paid a proper salary and not being expected to rely on outside sources to top up their income, then the reduced number of passengers would have no effect.

Then the onus would be on the employer to plan how to deal with any lost revenue like so many other businesses have had to do around the world.

Or the effect of the reduced number of passengers when the cruise line has to pay the wages in your system might instead have them bringing back to less stewards, waiters, and assistant waiters until capacity gets much closer to 100%.

[Peter Lanky]

13 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Or the effect of the reduced number of passengers when the cruise line has to pay the wages in your system might instead have them bringing back to less stewards, waiters, and assistant waiters until capacity gets much closer to 100%.

This sounds like suggesting that ships should keep the same of level of crew for fewer passengers, and the passengers pay for this by digging deeper into their pockets? Many of the passengers will have had the same setbacks as the cruise lines and their staff because of covid, and if they are not well off to start with might be struggling to have enough spending money for their well earned holiday. Will the cruise line not reduce staff anyway in line with the number of people on board other than essential roles?

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

This sounds like suggesting that ships should keep the same of level of crew for fewer passengers, and the passengers pay for this by digging deeper into their pockets? Many of the passengers will have had the same setbacks as the cruise lines and their staff because of covid, and if they are not well off to start with might be struggling to have enough spending money for their well earned holiday. Will the cruise line not reduce staff anyway in line with the number of people on board other than essential roles?

You are reading more into my post than it meant. All it said was with your system of remuneration for crew members the cruise lines may have felt the necessity to hire less of them with lower capacity cruises that have been sailing. In other words, beware of the law of unintended consequences.

[ldubs]

14 hours ago, KBs mum said:

You quoted a reply to something I had said, did you read my explanation of why I said it and a subsequent clarification?

In those I made a point of saying I was not arguing about the reality of the situation, but that customer perception of ownership could be different. 

 

Perception trumps reality.  I get it.   

[LGW59]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

This sounds like suggesting that ships should keep the same of level of crew for fewer passengers, and the passengers pay for this by digging deeper into their pockets? Many of the passengers will have had the same setbacks as the cruise lines and their staff because of covid, and if they are not well off to start with might be struggling to have enough spending money for their well earned holiday. Will the cruise line not reduce staff anyway in line with the number of people on board other than essential roles?

We have Meryl Streep over on the mask posts and now we have Sir Anthony Hopkins on tipping

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

This sounds like suggesting that ships should keep the same of level of crew for fewer passengers, and the passengers pay for this by digging deeper into their pockets? Many of the passengers will have had the same setbacks as the cruise lines and their staff because of covid, and if they are not well off to start with might be struggling to have enough spending money for their well earned holiday. Will the cruise line not reduce staff anyway in line with the number of people on board other than essential roles?

As I previously wrote, I did not say that. But to be fair, that does seem to be in line with what the writer of that cruisecritic article was saying. Though I think the gist of it was that if you can afford a cruise, you should look to taking care of the crew more than ever since they have just gone through a long period of no income.

[Peter Lanky]

31 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

We have Meryl Streep over on the mask posts and now we have Sir Anthony Hopkins on tipping

If that's some sort of 'in' joke, it's completely wasted on me. Not a clue what you're on about.

[ldubs]

23 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

As I previously wrote, I did not say that. But to be fair, that does seem to be in line with what the writer of that cruisecritic article was saying. Though I think the gist of it was that if you can afford a cruise, you should look to taking care of the crew more than ever since they have just gone through a long period of no income.

 

During early covid, the yard maintenance folks were not allowed to do their weekly Mow, & Blow.  Many homeowners in my town still paid them the monthly fee just because they knew the gardeners would be without income and in need.   Seemed like a good thing to do to me.   I see this as very similar to what this thread was supposed to be about.   

[Peter Lanky]

37 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

As I previously wrote, I did not say that. But to be fair, that does seem to be in line with what the writer of that cruisecritic article was saying. Though I think the gist of it was that if you can afford a cruise, you should look to taking care of the crew more than ever since they have just gone through a long period of no income.

 

The theory is a very good and honourable one. However I suspect that the cruise lines will simply see it as a way to absolve themselves of even more of their obligations, and it will come back to bite people on the bum at some later stage.

[LGW59]

1 minute ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

The theory is a very good and honourable one. However I suspect that the cruise lines will simply see it as a way to absolve themselves of even more of their obligations, and it will come back to bite people on the bum at some later stage.

Do you spend as much time on trying to eliminate the welfare program your royal family live off of?  Seems to me would be far more valiant than your "crusade" on eliminating tipping of cruise crews. 

[KBs mum]

36 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

During early covid, the yard maintenance folks were not allowed to do their weekly Mow, & Blow.  Many homeowners in my town still paid them the monthly fee just because they knew the gardeners would be without income and in need.   Seemed like a good thing to do to me.   I see this as very similar to what this thread was supposed to be about.   

In the UK those unable to work because Covid legislation had prevented their work had 80% of their wages guaranteed by the government. Gardeners were allowed to work, as was anyone unable to work from home. The people affected were primarily bar and restaurant staff when the establishments were not allowed to operate. Those salaries do not usually include tips, so they got at least 80% of usual income

[KBs mum]

20 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course RCI is an "American" company -- they are largely owned by American stockholders, they largely advertise, and sell, their services to an American customer base.  They are just cunning at hiding from American taxes and sheltering themselves from American labor laws. 

 

But, that being the case, why are folks who are interested in sailing with that sort of "American" company so reluctant to accept an "American" way of conducting things? 

 

 I guess they want to have their pudding and eat it too.

 

 RCI walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, and ducks taxes.  

I have no desire to go on any ship operated by RCI. Frankly, my idea of hell. Nothing to do with tips