Tipping now more important than ever

[ontheweb]

31 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

But again I don't see how this is determined by style of renumeration. I can't see how tipping affects how many crew members are hired. If it takes a hundred crew members to run a cruise ship then they have to hire the required numbers regardless of whether the pay comes from the employer or the customer. 

The article in question that started this discussion basically said that the crew members had not received any tips or wages in a long time. Add that to there were more crew members per passengers than normal both due to low capacity on the sailings and still needing as many crew members led to less tips in the pool for as large a crew. Plus, many were sailing on deeply discounted cruises. The author of the article then suggested to tip even more generously than one usually did because of all these circumstances. 

 

And somehow that article that asked passengers to be more generous due to these unique circumstances has devolved into a 700+ and constantly growing thread debating the whole concept of tipping.

[ColeThornton]

Geez, let it die already folks.    If you haven't gotten your point across in 30 pages you probably never will.

[ontheweb]

Actually, here is the original article that the OP cited and said he or she did not agree with:

 

Why Tipping on Your Cruise is More Important Than Ever Right Now (cruisecritic.com)

[ilikeanswers]

28 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

The article in question that started this discussion basically said that the crew members had not received any tips or wages in a long time. Add that to there were more crew members per passengers than normal both due to low capacity on the sailings and still needing as many crew members led to less tips in the pool for as large a crew. Plus, many were sailing on deeply discounted cruises. The author of the article then suggested to tip even more generously than one usually did because of all these circumstances. 

 

And somehow that article that asked passengers to be more generous due to these unique circumstances has devolved into a 700+ and constantly growing thread debating the whole concept of tipping.

 

Yes there has been a some diversion😂 but to be fair the post I was responding to was you suggesting if the renumeration scheme was not a tipping scheme it would lead to cruise lines hiring less crew until they had higher passenger capacity (not exactly on topic either) and that is what I found confusing. IIRC some of the first cruises that re started were European river cruises and they don't have tipping yet they managed to crew them with the right number of crew. I just don't see tipping or non tipping making a difference to crew numbers. Cruise lines will hire what they need to operate. 

 

If people want to pity tip that is up to them but I don't think it will effect crew numbers, however I do wonder if everyone starts pity tipping that it won't raise the base line tip therefore increasing the price of cruises and maybe putting it out of reach for some people🤔. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[Peter Lanky]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Actually, here is the original article that the OP cited and said he or she did not agree with:

 

Why Tipping on Your Cruise is More Important Than Ever Right Now (cruisecritic.com)

I read it originally and have now re read it with the benefit of all the comments, and my conclusion is still the same. That if the staff was paid the correct rate for the job, (which it seems according to popular opinion is their current salary plus 10%) then it would not matter how many people were on the cruise. The cruise lines have been raking it in for years prior to covid, especially with the benefit of cheap labour and flags of convenience to avoid taxes, and should have been in a position to ride this out, as many other businesses have had to.

[chengkp75]

37 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

The cruise lines have been raking it in for years prior to covid, especially with the benefit of cheap labour and flags of convenience to avoid taxes, and should have been in a position to ride this out, as many other businesses have had to.

Once again, your unfamiliarity with international business is showing.  The "return on investment" (the real measure of how well a company does) for cruise lines is lower than most companies or industries, due to the vast amount of capital investment.  Perhaps you should read some SEC filings, and investment analyses.

[Peter Lanky]

34 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Once again, your unfamiliarity with international business is showing.  The "return on investment" (the real measure of how well a company does) for cruise lines is lower than most companies or industries, due to the vast amount of capital investment.  Perhaps you should read some SEC filings, and investment analyses.

Yet again, too many assumptions about me. The topic is about tipping and cruises, not about me.

 

However, though I don't pore over statistical data in an attempt to catch people out or discredit them, I did do a little research prior to my statement, and looked at Carnival as a typical example of the cruise industry, which seemed to be doing quite well before covid. I was unable to find accurate data on staff salary cost, but I suspect it was quite small compared with the ever increasing profit, shown below from the Carnival Corporation website.

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Peter Lanky

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

Yet again, too many assumptions about me. The topic is about tipping and cruises, not about me.

 

However, though I don't pore over statistical data in an attempt to catch people out or discredit them, I did do a little research prior to my statement, and looked at Carnival as a typical example of the cruise industry, which seemed to be doing quite well before covid. I was unable to find accurate data on staff salary cost, but I suspect it was quite small compared with the ever increasing profit, shown below from the Carnival Corporation website.

 

So, pre-Covid. Carnival Corporation and  presumably other cruise companies were doing well.

 

I would think that that shows that under the tipping system, they were having no problems filling ships.

 

Also, it does not seem that they had any problems finding workers to be part of their crews knowing how they would receive their monies.

[Peter Lanky]

42 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

So, pre-Covid. Carnival Corporation and  presumably other cruise companies were doing well.

 

I would think that that shows that under the tipping system, they were having no problems filling ships.

 

Also, it does not seem that they had any problems finding workers to be part of their crews knowing how they would receive their monies.

All correct statements. It also shows that they had enough resources to pay their staff any shortfall by reduction in passengers, rather than rely on charity from customers which is what the original article was suggesting. I also believe that the staff would have been even happier with a guaranteed salary, but I don't suppose they have ever been asked that by their employers, and the customers just assume everything is hunky dory, and wouldn't have given the problem a second thought before the idea was put to them.

[wowzz]

9 hours ago, KBs mum said:

The non tipping lines have all put their prices up to cover the rise in staff costs (as well as the increased fuel costs) this is a normal part of operating a business. 

I have seen no evidence that P&O increased their prices when they removed the autotips a few years ago.

[navybankerteacher]

5 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

Yet again, too many assumptions about me. The topic is about tipping and cruises, not about me.

 

...

 

Give it up -- every time someone refers (appropriately) to what you say, you blather about them making "assumptions".  If you do not want people to react to things you say, you might be more careful in choosing what to say.

[LGW59]

43 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Give it up -- every time someone refers (appropriately) to what you say, you blather about them making "assumptions".  If you do not want people to react to things you say, you might be more careful in choosing what to say.

He likes the attention 

[KBs mum]

5 hours ago, wowzz said:

I have seen no evidence that P&O increased their prices when they removed the autotips a few years ago.

I was referring to year on year pricing, not a one off rise

[wowzz]

4 hours ago, KBs mum said:

I was referring to year on year pricing, not a one off rise

The problem is that with fluid pricing, plus obviously the impact of Covid, etc, it is difficult to determine base price levels.

From personal experience, we are paying less for 2023 cruises with tips included, than we did when the autogratuitues were in place.

[Peter Lanky]

9 hours ago, wowzz said:

I have seen no evidence that P&O increased their prices when they removed the autotips a few years ago.

 

I've no idea how P&O operates, but they must have had a very good reason for not doing this. I doubt they reduced the income of the staff, but if they did, it would be very wrong of them.

 

7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Give it up -- every time someone refers (appropriately) to what you say, you blather about them making "assumptions".  If you do not want people to react to things you say, you might be more careful in choosing what to say.

 

And yet another assumption. 😁 I am quite happy about people's comments about what I say, and I'm more that happy for people to disagree. What I don't like is people questioning my character or personality, because nobody on here, including the many who agree with me, know anything about who I am. 

 

Just stick to the subject. Same applies to the comment below.

 

7 hours ago, LGW59 said:

He likes the attention 

[Peter Lanky]

12 minutes ago, wowzz said:

The problem is that with fluid pricing, plus obviously the impact of Covid, etc, it is difficult to determine base price levels.

From personal experience, we are paying less for 2023 cruises with tips included, than we did when the autogratuitues were in place.

 

I think that's known as 'dangling a carrot'. Many people are very reluctant to cruise. Many hotels and airlines have raised their prices to try to recoup some of their massive profit levels, but this may soon come to haunt them. Maybe cruises that entice customers with lower prices are using the right approach, and are realising that increasing profits by a double digit percentage every year needs to go on hold until normality returns, and that a surplus from previous years could better used to win back the customers confidence.

[ontheweb]

12 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

All correct statements. It also shows that they had enough resources to pay their staff any shortfall by reduction in passengers, rather than rely on charity from customers which is what the original article was suggesting. I also believe that the staff would have been even happier with a guaranteed salary, but I don't suppose they have ever been asked that by their employers, and the customers just assume everything is hunky dory, and wouldn't have given the problem a second thought before the idea was put to them.

So we agree that the system worked, but somehow you twist that into therefore it should change.

[Peter Lanky]

42 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

So we agree that the system worked, but somehow you twist that into therefore it should change.

Can I just clarify? So are you suggesting that customers supplementing the wages of cruise staff by charitable donations is preferable to the cruise line paying them properly from past profits because they are earning less from auto-tipping'? 

 

Or are you suggesting that I agreed with your statements, which I did because they were factually correct, that I therefore agree with leaving things as they were? From the staff point of view, they still had to rely on charity even if mandatory, and from a customer point of view, people often put up with things they disagree with because there is no option.

 

But now a new option is emerging in the shape of more non tipping cruises. Why do you think cruise lines may be doing this? It was something I wasn't expecting myself, but obviously I am very pleased with as it increases my choice, and it makes me feel there is a lot of merit in my views on tipping.

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

...

And yet another assumption. 😁 I am quite happy about people's comments about what I say, and I'm more that happy for people to disagree. What I don't like is people questioning my character or personality, because nobody on here, including the many who agree with me, know anything about who I am. 

 

 

 

You have prattled enough to have given people here a fair amount of information about you:  you speak insultingly about the British royal family, you go on and on about how wrong the concept of tipping is as either an employer/employee compensation plan or as a reasonable means of rewarding the providers of personal services for superior performance.  You have shown a number of the earmarks of a Shavian Socialist, and an egalitarian anti-colonialist --- while still cruising on ships which can only operate as they do because of the huge disparity in disposable income between the societies which provide the cruisers and those which provide the staff serving the cruisers: arguably identifying yourself as something of a pompous hypocrite.

 

If these conclusions about who you are are invalid, it can only be because you have misrepresented who you are.

[KBs mum]

31 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

You have prattled enough to have given people here a fair amount of information about you:  you speak insultingly about the British royal family, you go on and on about how wrong the concept of tipping is as either an employer/employee compensation plan or as a reasonable means of rewarding the providers of personal services for superior performance.  You have shown a number of the earmarks of a Shavian Socialist, and an egalitarian anti-colonialist --- while still cruising on ships which can only operate as they do because of the huge disparity in disposable income between the societies which provide the cruisers and those which provide the staff serving the cruisers: arguably identifying yourself as something of a pompous hypocrite.

 

If these conclusions about who you are are invalid, it can only be because you have misrepresented who you are.

As I've said before, I don't agree with everything Peter Lanky has said, but I get the impression that you dont understand what he was saying, or the case for salary instead of tips he is making. You certainly don't understand how us Brits interact with each other. 

His views are not considered particularly unusual in Britain. 

You have a wierd view of what socialism is, and the causes of income disparities between different countries. 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

Can I just clarify? So are you suggesting that customers supplementing the wages of cruise staff by charitable donations is preferable to the cruise line paying them properly from past profits because they are earning less from auto-tipping'? 

 

Or are you suggesting that I agreed with your statements, which I did because they were factually correct, that I therefore agree with leaving things as they were? From the staff point of view, they still had to rely on charity even if mandatory, and from a customer point of view, people often put up with things they disagree with because there is no option.

 

But now a new option is emerging in the shape of more non tipping cruises. Why do you think cruise lines may be doing this? It was something I wasn't expecting myself, but obviously I am very pleased with as it increases my choice, and it makes me feel there is a lot of merit in my views on tipping.

No, I am saying in the pre-Covid world the system worked for the cruise companies, the passengers, and the crew. And hopefully, it will work in the post-Covid world.

 

The article that first inspired this thread suggested tipping extra on those first cruises where the crew had no income for a long time and there were less passengers to tip them. (Also, many passengers were cruising with incredibly cheap fares.)  The writer of the article then came to the conclusion that under those circumstances one should tip more generously than usual as "tipping was more important than ever".

[Peter Lanky]

48 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

You have prattled enough to have given people here a fair amount of information about you:  you speak insultingly about the British royal family, you go on and on about how wrong the concept of tipping is as either an employer/employee compensation plan or as a reasonable means of rewarding the providers of personal services for superior performance.  You have shown a number of the earmarks of a Shavian Socialist, and an egalitarian anti-colonialist --- while still cruising on ships which can only operate as they do because of the huge disparity in disposable income between the societies which provide the cruisers and those which provide the staff serving the cruisers: arguably identifying yourself as something of a pompous hypocrite.

 

If these conclusions about who you are are invalid, it can only be because you have misrepresented who you are.

Some eye opening comments there. As KB's Mum has just suggested, I do detect a lack of understanding of the British way of thinking and interacting. It is quite normal to go down to the pub with a friend and discuss very controversial subjects over a pint of (warm) beer, and leave at the end of the night with no negative feelings and no judgement of the other person. The pros and cons of the Royal family is a very popular topic.

I don't really know what a "Shavian Socialist, and an egalitarian anti-colonialist" is, so I'm not certain if I'm either. But why is it so important what you think I am? I'm only interested in what people say, and I feel I've provided very good examples of why I think non tipping is better. Retaining the status quo in any situation does not give it more credibility simply because it has been working well for some people.

[Peter Lanky]

23 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

No, I am saying in the pre-Covid world the system worked for the cruise companies, the passengers, and the crew. And hopefully, it will work in the post-Covid world.

 

The article that first inspired this thread suggested tipping extra on those first cruises where the crew had no income for a long time and there were less passengers to tip them. (Also, many passengers were cruising with incredibly cheap fares.)  The writer of the article then came to the conclusion that under those circumstances one should tip more generously than usual as "tipping was more important than ever".

Which the person who started this thread disagreed with and explained their conclusion very well, and which is a conclusion I support. In other words, keeping things as they were was not the answer, and passengers giving charity was not the answer. I'm getting the distinct impression that those who think that the status quo works very well are making the assumption that their opinion is the opinion of everyone, which is incorrect.

 

Nobody had yet attempted to answer my question as to why they believe many cruise lines are moving towards the 'non tipping cruise' model. 

[wowzz]

43 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

His views are not considered particularly unusual in Britain. 

Well, they certainly aren't mine.

[Peter Lanky]

12 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Well, they certainly aren't mine.

Why do you have a problem with that? Should we all have the same opinion, and mutually congratulate each other for doing so? You are free to write anything I disagree with, and have complete confidence that I will not attempt to insult or belittle you or cast any aspersions on your character.