Is food really "subjective"?

[baelor]

Forgive the clickbait title.  Obviously things like personal preference/tastes and stuff are subjective.

 

But it seems like the statement is way overused whenever anyone has a question about food, and it can be frustrating for people who actually want to hear about food on ships or get actual food reviews (which is what prompted this post).

 

Some people may like eating burned food, steaks that are not prepared as ordered, or completely unseasoned, boiled vegetables, but you can still describe those things.  You may prefer fattier cuts of meat, but the wagyu classification system and the USDA grading system are still objective metrics.  You may be willing to eat almost anything indiscriminately (I am fine eating almost anything), but that does not mean that the distinctions in the quality of what you eat disappear.  You may be happy with anything that you do not have to cook/clean yourself, but that has no bearing on whether the food is good or bad.

 

What gives?  Are people just unwilling to rag on cruise lines?  Do people want to avoid debates?  Are cruisegoers just generally not people who also are foodies or used to talking about the technical elements of food/cooking (which is obviously fine--everyone has different interests and hobbies)?  What gives?  

Edited May 2, 2022 by baelor

[shipgeeks]

Well, since I enjoy conversation here, I'll give my two cents worth.

First, in my years of reading CC, I've seen plenty of posts that do not hesitate to rag on a cruise line, probably more than those who say "but I know it's subjective".

Second, as well as food, isn't art, music, decor, pillow softness, ease of booking a cruise, customer service all subjective?  I imagine we have all been aboard a ship, came home, read a review, and thought "How could that have been the same cruise?"

I have, of course, had some mediocre dishes, as well as some excellent dishes. Sometimes I realize I just chose the wrong thing at the wrong time.  I've rarely thought something was bad.  Perhaps not made the way I expected (pecan pie and pavlova come to mind), but not bad.  I hope I'm not one who would write a bad review because my Spanish soup, called gazpacho, wasn't even hot by the time it got to me.

 

[CGTNORMANDIE]

I have been writing cruise reviews for the past 40 years…with a concentration on food since that is my field of expertise.  To me it boils down to hearing from pax who don’t know good food, those who don’t want to be judgmental, and those who really do know quality.  You have to sift through the information and make your own decision.   I’ve also noticed that most reviews really don’t go into the food to any extent.  Since a cruise is made up of eating morning noon and night this makes no sense to me.  IMO good food is not subjective it’s the mediocre food that is subjective.  

[rkacruiser]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:46 PM, shipgeeks said:

Well, since I enjoy conversation here, I'll give my two cents worth.

 

I enjoy the conversations as well and I'll offer my thoughts.  

 

22 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

with a concentration on food since that is my field of expertise.  To me it boils down to hearing from pax who don’t know good food, those who don’t want to be judgmental, and those who really do know quality.  

 

I have no culinary expertise, but, I do think I know the difference between poor,  mediocre, good, very good, and excellent food that is served to me.  I have experienced all of those categories.  But, not all on any cruise line or ship.  

 

While taste and presentation of the food is important to me, my expectation of the experience also is important to whatever opinions I have of the food.  The ambiance and the service received has a role to play in my thinking.  Pretentious dining experiences that don't meet my expectations, regardless of the food served, rank low in my opinion.  (An example, QM2's Todd English Restaurant-which I think no longer exists-served good food, but it was too pretentious in comparison to David's Supper Club on a Carnival ship where the food served was better than at Todd English and the ambiance and service was more to my liking.)  

 

I have been critical  in my comments about some of the cruise lines' "Celebrity Chefs" recipes.  More often, from my experience, I have more "misses" than "hits" with the most abysmal being Princess' Curtis Stone's rendition of Pork Belly.  A greasy mess that was the only dish that I ever returned to the Galley, but, only followed by the most poorly prepared Fettuccine Alfredo (a Princess specialty) I have ever eaten.  

 

On 5/2/2022 at 4:46 PM, shipgeeks said:

I hope I'm not one who would write a bad review because my Spanish soup, called gazpacho, wasn't even hot by the time it got to me.

 

😀     I share your thought.   

[CGTNORMANDIE]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I enjoy the conversations as well and I'll offer my thoughts.  

 

 

I have no culinary expertise, but, I do think I know the difference between poor,  mediocre, good, very good, and excellent food that is served to me.  I have experienced all of those categories.  But, not all on any cruise line or ship.  

 

While taste and presentation of the food is important to me, my expectation of the experience also is important to whatever opinions I have of the food.  The ambiance and the service received has a role to play in my thinking.  Pretentious dining experiences that don't meet my expectations, regardless of the food served, rank low in my opinion.  (An example, QM2's Todd English Restaurant-which I think no longer exists-served good food, but it was too pretentious in comparison to David's Supper Club on a Carnival ship where the food served was better than at Todd English and the ambiance and service was more to my liking.)  

 

I have been critical  in my comments about some of the cruise lines' "Celebrity Chefs" recipes.  More often, from my experience, I have more "misses" than "hits" with the most abysmal being Princess' Curtis Stone's rendition of Pork Belly.  A greasy mess that was the only dish that I ever returned to the Galley, but, only followed by the most poorly prepared Fettuccine Alfredo (a Princess specialty) I have ever eaten.  

 

 

😀     I share your thought.   

RK you are a gourmet.  You have a very experienced and discerning palate.  There are gourmets and there are gourmands.  Food can never be subjective to a gourmet but it can almost always be subjective to a gourmand.   A gourmet knows with certainty that gazpacho is always served cold.  A gourmand could easily mistake it for bouillabaisse. 

[rkacruiser]

CGTNormandie, thank you for your very kind post.  I appreciate it!  

[skeeter195]

I consider myself an expert in food and hospitality, having been trained by top tier chefs and then managing different high end dining rooms over the past 35 plus years and now a personal chef.    

 

I am not a picky eater, I can enjoy certain fast food all the way up to the finest meal in the finest restaurant around.  

 

If a dish is prepared correctly with the proper(not most expensive) ingredients then it is a success.  The problem is some people do not like how a dish may be prepared properly and then the word "subjective" comes in.  I have also seen people order dishes that they want "customized".  Then they complain that the dish was no good.  Here are a few examples of that:

-Steak tartare to be seared on the outside, What????

-Steak Au poivre with no peppercorns, really????

-Crispy lamb chops,  Oh boy!!

 

These could be examples of people not liking something and using the word subjective. 

[baelor]

51 minutes ago, skeeter195 said:

-Steak tartare to be seared on the outside, What????

-Steak Au poivre with no peppercorns, really????

-Crispy lamb chops,  Oh boy!!

what.the.heck.

[baelor]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:46 PM, shipgeeks said:

Second, as well as food, isn't art, music, decor, pillow softness, ease of booking a cruise, customer service all subjective?

Preferences may be, and art/music generally may be, but there is still a lot of objectivity.  Either a singer was off-key or not.  Either the drums drowned out the other performers or not.  etc.

[Tonopah]

I love a good burger. I know a bad burger.

I love properly prepared mussels but loathe rubbery “off” ones.

A waffle should be crisp, not limp.

Please cook my duck past pink.

Please use the freshest lettuce and other veggies in my green salad.

I don’t like fruity chicken, even when it is cooked to perfection.

 

”The food in the dining room was awful” doesn’t mean anything.

”My plate was lukewarm, my steak was shoe leather, there was a foreign object…” all mean something.

”The waitstaff knew from day 1 I dislike raspberries and made sure my chocolate dessert didn’t have any coulis on the plate” means something.

 

My opinions but a “good” burger is subjective. A “properly cooked’ burger is not.

 

TL/DR  - Don’t let Tonopah near a keyboard when she is on heavy cold medicine.

[rkacruiser]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:48 PM, skeeter195 said:

-Steak tartare to be seared on the outside, What????

 

Some who order such really don't understand what they are ordering.  

 

Is their thinking along the lines of this?  "I have heard about this.  It sounds interesting.  I will try it."  

 

If so, and they are disappointed in what is served, it will be a learning experience for that guest.  I have had some of the same learning experiences.

[SteveH2508]

On 5/5/2022 at 5:48 PM, skeeter195 said:

-Steak tartare to be seared on the outside,

 

Whenever we visit France, my wife will often order steak tartare in a restaurant.

We usually get the waiter or the proprietor coming back and asking if we know what it is. My wife's reply, "Yes - I want to see if your version is as good as my version".

[CntPAcruiser]

On 5/25/2022 at 6:05 PM, SteveH2508 said:

Whenever we visit France, my wife will often order steak tartare in a restaurant.

We usually get the waiter or the proprietor coming back and asking if we know what it is. My wife's reply, "Yes - I want to see if your version is as good as my version".

 

We very much enjoy steak tartare, but rarely order unless we are quite sure of the restaurant. Our biggest disappointment was at a favorite restaurant of ours near home where they dosed the tartare so liberally with anchovy that it tasted like nothing but. Carpaccio is another favorite, and the versions Royal has on their menu are not bad. We typically order more than one as an appetizer when it's available. 

 

On a different side of the topic, we once dined at a small Italian restaurant in Frankfurt, Germany, and the server checked with me to make sure I knew that "Fruits de Mer" was seafood and not fruit, and then confirmed that I knew "pepperoni" on my pizza meant peppers. I did know, but obviously there had been enough confusion in the past that they felt the need to check. In Germany, if you want something akin to pepperoni pizza, you order "Pizza Salame."

[Schlinger]

At long last, people with some sense on this thread. You read so much nonsense as soon as an opinion is offered on food (or other subjects on cruises, but food is the one that I'm most interested in). It seems like every time someone has an opinion on something, they have to add that it's subjective, or someone else will say they liked it if it's a negative assessment. Bursting into someone's thread about food by saying somebody else liked or disliked it isn't helping the discussion; offering details about why the food is (or isn't) the way it was described adds to the discussion. A grey steak isn't a matter of taste, it's been cooked at too low a temperature. Whether you like orange better than cherry is a matter of taste.

That fake, pretend "tolerance" that attempts to dilute every discussion into a "this is just your opinion and thus it might be right or wrong, some people will agree but most won't" is so annoying. As if I expected everyone to agree with what I say. Say WHY you agree (or disagree) or, even better, offer your opinion on the food I described rather than giving this useless, general opinion about an opinion.

Food discussion should be about how well (or badly) a dish was prepared, about the unusual chilli flavor on your chocolate dessert, that Tamarind put too much fish sauce in the Tom Kha Gai, that type of thing.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Schlinger
Correcting the autocorrect...

[Schlinger]

On 5/26/2022 at 12:05 AM, SteveH2508 said:

Whenever we visit France, my wife will often order steak tartare in a restaurant.

We usually get the waiter or the proprietor coming back and asking if we know what it is. My wife's reply, "Yes - I want to see if your version is as good as my version".

Probably not, I'd guess, since France has substandard beef. Mainly that big, tough Charolais breed. Bodybuilding Champions without any fat, and certainly no intramuscular fat at all.  Furthermore, France has very few good restaurants as taxes on personnel are so high (100%) that they have to save on personnel wherever they can.  Sending you a cook or waiter to your table with a cart with all the ingredients who would then cut your tartare with a knife (like they used to 30 or 40 years ago in the finer establishments) is a rare occurrence these days.

[Mum2Mercury]

On 5/5/2022 at 2:19 PM, Tonopah said:

”The food in the dining room was awful” doesn’t mean anything.

”My plate was lukewarm, my steak was shoe leather, there was a foreign object…” all mean something.

”The waitstaff knew from day 1 I dislike raspberries and made sure my chocolate dessert didn’t have any coulis on the plate” means something.

Yes!  If you want me to believe you, give me details!  

Alas, too many reviewers substitute adjectives for details:  The spicy chicken was fabulous!  The buffet breakfast was the worst.  The icy cold frozen cocktails were to die for.  None of those sentences even remotely told you anything. 

[rkacruiser]

On 5/30/2022 at 6:21 PM, Mum2Mercury said:

Yes!  If you want me to believe you, give me details!  

Alas, too many reviewers substitute adjectives for details:  The spicy chicken was fabulous!  The buffet breakfast was the worst.  The icy cold frozen cocktails were to die for.  None of those sentences even remotely told you anything. 

 

I agree that generalities only reflects that poster's experience.  But, is some information better than nothing?  If one wants to post a follow-up question about why the "spicy chicken" was so fabulous, one has the ability to do so.

 

Please, don't discourage dialogue.  That's what helps to make CC an interesting Message Board.