A&K Travel Group Acquires Crystal Brand and Crystal Serenity and Crystal Symphony

[TRIPACIAN]

5 hours ago, bitob said:

Only way I would go back

i have found great alternatives along with my travel friends
I am happy for those who were hoping for a good outcome and who did not lose mega amounts of money

I am pretty sure we won’t be seeing you on the new Crystal!

[ryndam]

Given that A&K is known for its land tours, it will be interesting to see if the new Crystal will include one or more shore excursions as part of its offerings, as does Regent and Viking.

 

Rob

[travelberlin]

1 hour ago, AtA said:

And honestly what amount would make you happy since i’m sure they are not going to give you 30k of FCC

Actually all creditors are entitled to receive their total money. It is not negotiating like in a Bazar. We know that this is not going to happen. Crew members, entertainers, officers, travel agents, other services providers and clients have been deceived and lost money without  doing anything wrong. Many other Crystal fans were able to recover or use their deposits before Crystal ceased operations. Others were not able. And others just do not care about their lost. To know that recovering the money is not going to happen does not make it right. It is just wrong that Crystal ( our contracts were with Crystal) was not able to meet its commitments. This has negative implications for the Crystal name and it will remain in the memories of some for many years. Others new cruisers or loyal cruisers who have not lost anything or who do not care about their deposits not being refunded, do not really have a problem and are absolutely happy with the return of the ships and the Crystal name. There are different positions. But it was wrong the way Crystal left and this is putting a shadow on the new Crystal. 
Ivi

[Stickman1990]

4 hours ago, bitob said:

I think we should start a thread called

Speculation about the "New" Crystal

Why? What’s wrong with this one for the initial discussion?

[Stickman1990]

5 hours ago, AtA said:

And yes, it was fraud by Genting HK. 

Really? A big claim/statement that could be actionable 

Have fraud charges been laid anywhere in the world against Genting HK management?

[Keith1010]

I feel the excitement.  I hope other do.  You can imagine.  
 

I like that.

 

Keith 

[AtA]

40 minutes ago, ryndam said:

Given that A&K is known for its land tours, it will be interesting to see if the new Crystal will include one or more shore excursions as part of its offerings, as does Regent and Viking.

 

Rob

I sure hope not. Regent, Viking and now Silversea does and I would prefer it not be included in the base price because most times we like to book our own tours. I would love if A & K offers some good options but not have it included in the base price.

[AtA]

36 minutes ago, travelberlin said:

Actually all creditors are entitled to receive their total money. It is not negotiating like in a Bazar. We know that this is not going to happen. Crew members, entertainers, officers, travel agents, other services providers and clients have been deceived and lost money without  doing anything wrong. Many other Crystal fans were able to recover or use their deposits before Crystal ceased operations. Others were not able. And others just do not care about their lost. To know that recovering the money is not going to happen does not make it right. It is just wrong that Crystal ( our contracts were with Crystal) was not able to meet its commitments. This has negative implications for the Crystal name and it will remain in the memories of some for many years. Others new cruisers or loyal cruisers who have not lost anything or who do not care about their deposits not being refunded, do not really have a problem and are absolutely happy with the return of the ships and the Crystal name. There are different positions. But it was wrong the way Crystal left and this is putting a shadow on the new Crystal. 
Ivi

You seem to miss the fact that it was NOT Crystal who screwed everyone. It was Genting HK. Crystal was one subsidiary of Genting. The shipyard that got screwed was another. All final decisions had to go through Genting HK.

Edited June 22 by AtA

[TRIPACIAN]

27 minutes ago, Keith1010 said:

I feel the excitement.  I hope other do.  You can imagine.  
 

I like that.

 

Keith 

Like you we plan on being on the first cruise possible and we will be listening to Louie as we sail away with tears of joy in our eyes!!!

 

I am sure those that don’t plan on ever sailing with Crystal again think we are crazy an Crystal cheerleaders and they are right.  
 

 By the way we don’t sail Crystal exclusively and we have recently sailed on Celebrity, Holland America, Regent, Scenic  and have cruises booked on Silversea, Regent, Scenic and Seabourn.  All of these cruises we’re or will be great., but we miss Crystal!

 

[hypercafe]

Everyone has their own opinion wether Genting or Crystal screwed the 30K + creditors. I personally blame the legal system that is designed to allow people/business to walk away from their obligations. In the end some customers/vendors will forgive the new company and some will not deal with them. I personally believe these things always follow the same path, the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. I would sail on the new Crystal depending on what the end result is.

 

[Shorex]

Bankruptcy law is very complicated. Start here and have some fun reading - https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy/bankruptcy-basics

 

But wait, we're dealing with maritime bankruptcy -  a whole different kettle of fish. Study up here:

https://www.coleschotz.com/2B7963/assets/files/Documents/Expert QAndA on Maritime Bankruptcies and the Intersection of Admiralty ....pdf

 

A brief section specifies "A judicial foreclosure, by order of a court of competent jurisdiction
sitting in admiralty, is the most certain way to extinguish all liens against a vessel. The foreclosure sale enables the purchaser to obtain title to the vessel free and clear of all liens, claims, and
encumbrances, and all recorded mortgages and unrecorded secret
liens and claims are transferred to the sale proceeds."

 

If anyone wants to posit a moral obligation to pay debts owed to individual Crystal cruisers, feel free. Go for it. But don't expect there to be a correlation to a home mortgage - there is neither correlation nor causation. 

 

Where in maritime bankruptcy law are "all creditors entitled to receive their total money"?

 

"A bankruptcy discharge releases the debtor from personal liability for certain specified types of debts. In other words, the debtor is no longer legally required to pay any debts that are discharged. The discharge is a permanent order prohibiting the creditors of the debtor from taking any form of collection action on discharged debts, including legal action and communications with the debtor, such as telephone calls, letters, and personal contacts. "

 

Many of us have lost forever personal funds paid to Crystal. Blame whoever you wish. Sorry. Maybe A&K should name the ships and the new line something other than "Crystal." They do own the intellectual property which prevents any other new line using the Crystal name. That might, only might, prevent demands for restitution that will never happen - or they can throw a bone to past Crystal cruisers. Time will tell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ryndam]

7 minutes ago, Shorex said:

That might, only might, prevent demands for restitution that will never happen - or they can throw a bone to past Crystal cruisers. Time will tell.

 

I'm waiting to see what bones eventually remain in that boneyard for further consideration. The liquidation process is not yet concluded.

[wishIweretravelling]

Everyone is focusing on who the buyer is. And that matters 100% for the future of these ships and the experience known as Crystal. But on the question of whether clientele and TAs will ever see their money, the question is—who was the seller? Was it the creditors who seized the ships? Was it Genting? Was it a receiver of some sort. And whose law applies? Bermuda? U.S.? Hong Kong?

 

Whoever sold these ships has $128 million that they didn’t have before. Are they obligated to use that money to pay off debts? And, if so, where do customers stand in the line of creditors? The answers to these two questions depend on the answers to my first questions.

[Stickman1990]

3 minutes ago, wishIweretravelling said:

Whoever sold these ships has $128 million that they didn’t have before. Are they obligated to use that money to pay off debts? And, if so, where do customers stand in the line of creditors? The answers to these two questions depend on the answers to my first questions.

Think you’ll find the banks involved, as secured creditors, will have first call on those funds (maybe crew and taxes up there too). After that (if there’s anything left) unsecured creditors 

 

I think many have pretty much given up on debt recovery and are just wishing for a return of the “Crystal experience”. I think the big unknown there is just what the new Crystal offers in that regard

[wishIweretravelling]

6 minutes ago, Stickman1990 said:

Think you’ll find the banks involved, as secured creditors, will have first call on those funds (maybe crew and taxes up there too). After that (if there’s anything left) unsecured creditors 

 

I think many have pretty much given up on debt recovery and are just wishing for a return of the “Crystal experience”. I think the big unknown there is just what the new Crystal offers in that regard

I expect taxes are first in line. And employees may be second—ahead of secured creditors—depending on whose law governs.  I’m not saying anyone is likely to see much if any of their money. But they need to look to the sellers for it, not A&K

[cruisr]

V ships handled Silversea very well in the past.  Good choice I think.

[Keith1010]

1 hour ago, wishIweretravelling said:

I expect taxes are first in line. And employees may be second—ahead of secured creditors—depending on whose law governs.  I’m not saying anyone is likely to see much if any of their money. But they need to look to the sellers for it, not A&K

I can't speak to taxes but employees were at the beginning (whether first or second of the line). Vendors next.  Guest follow.  Travel Agencies pretty much last.

Keith

[Publisher1953]

This story is evolving about as well as anyone could hope. A legitimate business skilled in higher-end travel has purchased the ships and brand identity, and I expect will competently get things in order to resume business. Obviously, unsecured creditors (including many travellers and travel agencies) have taken a hit, but they may see some good-will compensation/offers to at least partially alleviate the pain. Other "old" Crystal cruisers had the good fortune to pay deposits within the time frames set by the CC companies (in our case, AMEX) and have been made whole.

 

Keith is quite right that the best time to start/take on a business is when things aren't quite perfect. I'm thankful that I started up (with zero capital) at the beginning of a major recession about 30 years ago -- there certainly were anxious moments, but the lean and mean environment during the business's early years helped it to have the right stuff to survive all sorts of conditions. Now my wife and I have money and time . . . for relatively expensive cruises.  

 

We'll watch for the relaunch and the itineraries, and I'm confident our TA will be happy to book us on the Crystal Cruise of our choice. And maybe we'll be able to meet in person again in later 2023 or 2024.

 

This is a time to celebrate.

[BuckGood]

10 hours ago, Orator said:

The new owners are under no obligation, but as I’ve said in another post, showing “goodwill” might be a good business decision. I would not expect to be completely whole , but a partial FCC would go a long way. They should look at all options to attract past passengers.

Your like a Broken record! 🤦‍♂️

[Stickman1990]

Based on copies of documents posted on a FB site it seems the Assignee has sold Crystal IP and databases for US$13m - that’s effectively the Crystal “brand” - so that’s a little bit added to the pot for payment to unsecured creditors 

Edited June 22 by Stickman1990

[Stickman1990]

6 minutes ago, Publisher1953 said:

…the best time to start/take on a business is when things aren't quite perfect

Well if that’s correct they’ve certain hit the jackpot on timing! 😂😂😂

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, Shorex said:

Bankruptcy law is very complicated. Start here and have some fun reading - https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy/bankruptcy-basics

US bankruptcy law is of no relevance to the Crystal and Genting Hong Kong proceedings. Genting Hong Kong is incorporated in Bermuda and is being liquidated under the laws of that country under the supervision of Bermuda's court system.

While Crystal is incorporated in the US  it is did not file for bankruptcy under US law, stating it did not have the funds to do so. Crystal filed an Assignment for the Benefit of Creditors (ABC) insolvency proceeding under Florida law.

2 hours ago, Shorex said:

 

But wait, we're dealing with maritime bankruptcy -  a whole different kettle of fish. Study up here:

https://www.coleschotz.com/2B7963/assets/files/Documents/Expert QAndA on Maritime Bankruptcies and the Intersection of Admiralty ....pdf

While providing some insight into admiralty law the article is addressing the intersection of US Chapter 11 bankruptcy with admiralty law, and again there is no US bankruptcy proceeding in play here.

 

The following article provides a reasonable plain language explanation of how the proceeds from the sale of Serenity and Symphony will be used. https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/legal-regulatory/after-crystal-symphony-and-serenitys-sales-who-gets-paid  . 

 

"Who gets paid first

Typically, the first paid would be costs of the legal proceedings such as custodial fees, then maritime liens — starting, in order, with seafarers' wages, tort liens such as personal injuries and 'vessel necessaries' such as fuel, supplies, dockage fees, etc. — and then the ships' mortgage holder."

 

Unsecured creditors such as passengers owed refunds and travel agents owed commissions have to go though the ABC insolvency process liquidators.

Edited June 22 by njhorseman

[ryndam]

43 minutes ago, Stickman1990 said:

Based on copies of documents posted on a FB site it seems the Assignee has sold Crystal IP and databases for US$13m - that’s effectively the Crystal “brand” - so that’s a little bit added to the pot for payment to unsecured creditors 

Send some (of that) pot in my direction. Lol.

[bitob]

3 hours ago, Stickman1990 said:

Why? What’s wrong with this one for the initial discussion?

That was a joke!!@

[Stickman1990]

8 minutes ago, ryndam said:

Send some (of that) pot in my direction. Lol.

Surely 😉

 

Well we won’t be diverting any potential funds away from you as we didn’t even lodge a claim as I think the chances of any payment are very slim and we got most of our payments back via credit card disputes - so only Admin Fees for us and some of those were old so just put it down to a bad experience (I never did like that Admin Fee concept!)