Passport Clarification Needed..

[jkloni]

Just read page 89 and beyond as the final rule relates to cruise passengers...

 

Your cruise MUST begin and end from the same U.S. port to use a certified birth certificate / drivers license. A passport is required otherwise.

 

So for example, our repositioning that started in New York and ended in New Orleans would require a passport.

 

In another instance a few years ago, we were supposed to cruise roundtrip from New Orleans. Because of a river issue, we were diverted to Gulfport. If that would happen once the final rule goes into effect, those without passports would have a real problem.

 

Thankfully we have our passports. I guess if you're a gambler you can continue to cruise without a passport. I won't tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do. But I would suggest thinking really hard....

 

cherylandtk - thanks for all of the updating you have done for this thread. It is really appreciated.

 

Kathy

[cherylandtk]

Kathy, you are absolutely correct in the different port scenarios... I would only point out that the impact analysis showed that 92% of all US ported cruises were round trip in and out of the same port. The remaining 8% were mostly the one way Alaska trips, but of course would include both itineraries you noted, as well.

 

And as always, a passport is a smart travel tool; just as travel insurance gives you peace of mind, so does having a passport, even if it is not absolutely required.

[TPKeller]

In another instance a few years ago, we were supposed to cruise roundtrip from New Orleans. Because of a river issue, we were diverted to Gulfport. If that would happen once the final rule goes into effect, those without passports would have a real problem.

This has been mentioned on other threads as well... in fact, it's the perfect loophole! For everyone who doesn't want to face that "end of the cruise" depression, just cruise without a passport... in the off chance that your ship can't return to the originating port, clearly the cruise line will be required to keep you on the ship until they can! :eek:

 

Theron

[jkloni]

This has been mentioned on other threads as well... in fact, it's the perfect loophole! For everyone who doesn't want to face that "end of the cruise" depression, just cruise without a passport... in the off chance that your ship can't return to the originating port, clearly the cruise line will be required to keep you on the ship until they can! :eek:

 

Theron

 

 

lol

:D :D ...I wasn't quick enough to figure that out!

 

Kathy

[prwjr]

 

And as always, a passport is a smart travel tool; just as travel insurance gives you peace of mind, so does having a passport, even if it is not absolutely required.

 

Cheryl...how was your recent trip? Nice I hope. I'm sure your all refreshed for another year!!! lol

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[prwjr]

The DHS/State have issued the final rule for passports.

 

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/whti_landseafinalrule.pdf

:)

 

It certainly is a lengthy document. I note that on Page 90, it says the following:

 

"U.S. citizen cruise ship passengers traveling within the Western Hemisphere are

permitted to present a government-issued photo identification document in combination

with either: (1) an original or a copy of a birth certificate,...".

 

The document or ruling does NOT however, use the language 'certified' copy of a birth certificate, which would lead me to believe, as any other citizen, that a photo-copy of a birth certificate will be acceptable.

 

The above quoted passage re: 'a copy of a birth certificate', is stated numerous times in the document/ruling. There are tens of thousands of typewritten words in the document and one would think that another 9 letter word, (certified), would have been included, if that is the intention of the language of the ruling.

 

Cheryl, what are your thoughts???

 

Personally, I would be prepared to have a certified, gold raised seal copy of a birth certificate.

 

Paul

 

 

[cherylandtk]

Hi Paul,

 

Maui was great, although now I am back I have a mountain of things to catch up on so the Hang Loose attitude has pretty much disappeared already :)

 

As for the 'copy of a birth certificate' question : Early on in the final rule document, there is a footnote that says "Citizenship documents generally include birth certificates issued by a United States jurisdiction, Consular Reports of Birth Abroad, Certificates of Naturalization, and Certificates of Citizenship".

 

Which means that any copy of a birth certificate must also be issued by a United States jurisdiction, and not your local Kinko's. So anyone choosing to continue to travel on a cruise with just a BC and DL, understand that a photocopy will not do. Must be issued by that US jurisdiction...AKA a certified copy. ;)

 

FYI--Carolyn Spencer Brown told me via email they are working on a new feature article on this subject for tomorrow's main page and news.

[prwjr]

Hi Paul,

 

Maui was great, although now I am back I have a mountain of things to catch up on so the Hang Loose attitude has pretty much disappeared already :)

 

As for the 'copy of a birth certificate' question : Early on in the final rule document, there is a footnote that says "Citizenship documents generally include birth certificates issued by a United States jurisdiction, Consular Reports of Birth Abroad, Certificates of Naturalization, and Certificates of Citizenship".

 

Which means that any copy of a birth certificate must also be issued by a United States jurisdiction, and not your local Kinko's. So anyone choosing to continue to travel on a cruise with just a BC and DL, understand that a photocopy will not do. Must be issued by that US jurisdiction...AKA a certified copy. ;)

 

FYI--Carolyn Spencer Brown told me via email they are working on a new feature article on this subject for tomorrow's main page and news.

 

Well iffin' you were at the peak of Haleakala at this moment, you would still have a mountain of things to conquer when you returned...but at least you would have been there...done that!!! Hang Loose!!!

 

I understand your point about the language used 'early on in the final rule document', however, I tried to get to the 'bottom line', in the ruling, as it were, and I seriously doubt that your average traveler will be willing to wade through 151 pages of governmental gibberish in order to make sure that they have the proper travel ID documents.

 

That having been said, I would say that it is up to the individual traveler, to make sure that they have the proper documents for travel to and from their destination.

 

Neither you nor I can overstate the ultimate value of having a valid Passport Book...a 'Passcard' is great...but a Passport Book is GREATER.

 

Welcome back Cheryl!!!

[TPKeller]

FYI--Carolyn Spencer Brown told me via email they are working on a new feature article on this subject for tomorrow's main page and news.

That's interesting! I sent her an e-mail on Friday afternoon suggesting the same thing. I'm actually kind of surprised that they didn't put something out on this much sooner.

 

I hope they present the news factually. I have already seen another cruise site publish an article which covered the first part of the rule (that passports will be required after June 1, 2009) but completely left out the exemption which covers the very vast majority of cruisers in the US.

 

As I have said before, there are many great reasons to get a passport, we don't have to resort to misleading information or FUD to make the case. All that does is destroy one's credibility and reputation for honest reporting.

 

Theron

[cherylandtk]

Theron--I still don't see anything new posted yet for today, but I certainly agree with your assessment of past stories being incomplete. Sad to say, this one on CC included:

http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=47

 

I tried twice to email and get it corrected, but got no response. At least this time I got an answer back that they were working on a story update.

[TPKeller]

Theron--I still don't see anything new posted yet for today, but I certainly agree with your assessment of past stories being incomplete. Sad to say, this one on CC included:

http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=47

 

I tried twice to email and get it corrected, but got no response. At least this time I got an answer back that they were working on a story update.

The Cruise Critic story that you link to does at least say "Last Updated: 01/28/08". But that story links to another page on the Independent Traveler site (which owns Cruise Critic), that claims to be their "up-to-the-minute Passport Center". On that site, they claim that starting June 1, 2009, US Citizens will need a passport "for most land and sea travel", which I would consider to be a false statement. I believe that "most sea travel" is actually made up of cruises that do meet the exemption requirements, and would therefore not require a passport.

 

It is very disappointing, but I am convinced (not quite yet in the case of Cruise Critic, but it's getting close as their delay goes on) that some outlets are trying to make news, rather than report it, by providing only some of the facts and misleading people into actions that they may not need to take. It would almost seem that they would prefer a potential cruiser to not cruise at all, rather than take a cruise without a passport. This doesn't serve the interests of the Cruise Industry, or the passenger!

 

On the other site blog that I mentioned earlier, the author actually replied to my comment pointing out their dis-information with "Why promote the delay in getting a passport?" "Truth" is apparently only an option for some people.

 

Theron

[prwjr]

The more I read about this Passport debacle, the more I am inclined to believe that a Passport should be REQUIRED for anyone going to a foreign country and more importantly, returning to the US. The Passcard would be convenient for those who work in Canada and Mexico traveling out of the US from a border state. For any other occasional or recreational traveler...a Passport should be required...PLAIN & SIMPLE. That would certainly make the rules and regulations less complicated.

 

Our national security is of more importance than the fact that the 'occasional' traveler is reluctant to obtain a Passport because of the additional costs involved.

 

Any ID document can be forged...but it is much easier to forge a D/L or B/C, than it would be to forge an e-Passport with a biometric chip.

 

Just my opinion...

[TPKeller]

Theron--I still don't see anything new posted yet for today, but I certainly agree with your assessment of past stories being incomplete. Sad to say, this one on CC included:

http://www.cruisecritic.com/features/articles.cfm?ID=47

 

I tried twice to email and get it corrected, but got no response. At least this time I got an answer back that they were working on a story update.

They've posted the Cruise Critic News story on the passport update.

 

I have to read it with a chuckle... strictly my opinion here, for whatever reason, it seems to me that the powers that be (not just CC) are hating this story, and are reporting the facts as reluctantly as their journalistic conscience will let them.

 

They said: "We don't entirely understand the government's laxness on these roundtrip U.S. sailings." Which just makes me laugh... They send your name to the government before you sail. They positively ID you each and every time you leave and twice as you re-enter the ship. They check your ID again when you get off the ship on return home... even though the author quoted from them, apparently the logic of the reasons provided was not understood.

 

Then later they discussed two recent cases where wanted criminals were arrested from different cruise ships, and speculated: "Perhaps if the alleged suspects had been made to show a passport before boarding they would have been identified and apprehended more quickly."

 

Well it turns out that one of these criminals was from Vancouver, Canada, so he presumably would have had a passport.

 

Passenger manifest reporting is not handled differently based on your form of ID. They had to have ID to get on the ship. They knew who they were. They were arrested. A passport would have made no difference, but I guess it makes for dramatic reporting.

 

And finally, quite sadly, the financial impact of passports on families and 3/4 day cruisers was not mentioned at all, even though I strongly believe and I think many agree, that this is the primary reason for the very creation and finalization of the exemption!

 

But... other than the silly thing about the criminals, they didn't say anything outright false or misleading, so I guess that puts them one up on some other outlets I've read.

 

Theron

 

P.S. By the way I just get a kick out of this story... criminals have been cruising for years... the most exciting report I've ever read about this was from four years ago now when the USS Thomas Gates, a US Navy Cruiser, helped to apprehend a suspected mob boss. No mention was made of whether he carried a valid passport... ;)

[cherylandtk]

Theron,

;) I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read that sentence on 'laxness'. I laughed because it was the cruise industry that wrote hundreds of comments against the proposal to require passports on cruises....so now they have what they asked for and say they don't entirely understand why ?!?!? Sigh....

[TPKeller]

Theron,

;) I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read that sentence on 'laxness'. I laughed because it was the cruise industry that wrote hundreds of comments against the proposal to require passports on cruises....so now they have what they asked for and say they don't entirely understand why ?!?!? Sigh....

Oh, I think the industry understands it perfectly well. It's the trade groups and travel writers (here and elsewhere) that I sadly suspect are trying to make news and generate policy, more than reporting it accurately.

 

It seems to me that much like some of the mainstream media with their various social causes, these writers also have their own agenda (namely that every traveler who leaves the US should be required to get a passport) and they will do as much as they feel justified to do in order to see the realization of that agenda. JMHO, and again I've seen other travel sites that are much worse. Not dumping that all on CC by any means. But the article does speak for itself.

 

Theron

[prwjr]

 

It seems to me that much like some of the mainstream media with their various social causes, these writers also have their own agenda (namely that every traveler who leaves the US should be required to get a passport)

 

Theron

 

I am by no means 'mainstream media' nor do I have a 'social cause' but I do have an agenda and a belief that every traveler that RETURNS to the US should be required to have a US Passport. It is a matter of national security. If a traveler LEAVES the US to go to another country, it is the responsibility of that country to protect its security by whatever means that country feels necessary to do so. I live in the US, so I am concerned about our homeland security, I would think that any other law abiding citizen would feel the same way. If you never leave the US you will not need to have a US Passport, if you do leave this country and return, then it is my opinion that the traveler should be required to have a US Passport.

 

Paul from New Jersey

[TPKeller]

I am by no means 'mainstream media' nor do I have a 'social cause' but I do have an agenda and a belief that every traveler that RETURNS to the US should be required to have a US Passport. It is a matter of national security. If a traveler LEAVES the US to go to another country, it is the responsibility of that country to protect its security by whatever means that country feels necessary to do so. I live in the US, so I am concerned about our homeland security, I would think that any other law abiding citizen would feel the same way. If you never leave the US you will not need to have a US Passport, if you do leave this country and return, then it is my opinion that the traveler should be required to have a US Passport.

 

Paul from New Jersey

Hi Paul,

 

I have read the reasons for the permanent exception to the passport rule, and I think they do make some sense. Having said that, it wouldn't bother me greatly if the exception didn't exist, but I do believe it would hurt the cruise industry, and I think it's plainly obvious to anyone who cares to assess the whole national security situation that at least for now, money is more important than security.

 

I applaud your agenda and in a slight variation of the old cliché, I'd fight to the death for your right to advance it in the proper format... and we are so very lucky in the USA to have the means and procedures for addressing our concerns to those who govern us and represent us to the government. There is a clear path available to you to have the rules changed to your satisfaction.

 

The thing that frustrates me so much, that I was talking about in my earlier post, is when a person or organization who claims to be an authority on a situation reports a story or situation using either incorrect, or at least misleading or incomplete information, essentially deceiving anyone who will listen to them into believing that their agenda has already been fulfilled.

 

If a reporter presents the first part of the story, that is, that the rules requiring all passengers entering the US after June 1, 2009 will be required to have a passport, but then leaves out the exception to the rule, which covers the very vast majority of actual cruise passengers... well, that's what I'm talking about. That sort of "reporting" completely destroys one's credibility.

 

I've long said that there are many valid reasons for getting a passport, we don't need to resort to misleading people and spreading FUD to make the case.

 

Theron (feeling a little bit like a civics teacher!)

[TPKeller]

CCL Fascination/ Key West, Cozumel, 09/03/07, CCL Fascination/ Nassau, 11/15/07, USS Enterprise, Mayport Fl to Norfolk, VA, 12/16/07

Hey I just noticed your sig... did you do a Tiger cruise? I got to ride USS Hue City from Mayport to Baltimore about 15 years ago... I discovered that 2.5 days is about as long as you'd want to be on a Navy ship... :)

 

Theron

[prwjr]

Hi Paul,

 

I have read the reasons for the permanent exception to the passport rule, and I think they do make some sense. Having said that, it wouldn't bother me greatly if the exception didn't exist, but I do believe it would hurt the cruise industry, and I think it's plainly obvious to anyone who cares to assess the whole national security situation that at least for now, money is more important than security.

 

Theron (feeling a little bit like a civics teacher!)

 

Hey Theron,

 

I believe that we agree to agree!!! I understand the low-risk associated with round trip cruise passengers departing from and returning to the US, providing those passengers have the required documentation. Perhaps the new rule was developed with RT cruise passengers traveling within the WHTI in mind. I also understand the detriment to the cruise industry for requiring a valid Passport, in that the cost of the Passport is an added expense. I maintain that national security is of the utmost importance and if a traveler leaves the US to visit a foreign country, when that traveler returns to the US, proper, verifiable, authentic documents should be presented.

 

I received my first US Passport in 1969. I received my second US Passport in 2007. I didn't get my second Passport with the intention of traveling abroad. I obtained the Passport because I felt that it would soon become the best available and a neccessary form of ID.

 

Paul from NJ

[prwjr]

Hey I just noticed your sig... did you do a Tiger cruise? I got to ride USS Hue City from Mayport to Baltimore about 15 years ago... I discovered that 2.5 days is about as long as you'd want to be on a Navy ship... :)

 

Theron

 

Yes...I did a Tiger Cruise and it was OUTSTANDING!!! I was on the ship for 4 days and still couldn't find my way around when I got off the ship!!! There are always alot of things going on...on an aircraft carrier.

 

If you are interested you can check out the following links to still photos on Kodak Gallery and videos on YouTube...

 

Still photos: http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=iopr9ig.sjhp0zs&x=0&h=1&y=-kctkzr

 

Videos:

 

Have a great day!!! I always enjoy reading your posts...

 

Paul

[TPKeller]

Yes...I did a Tiger Cruise and it was OUTSTANDING!!! I was on the ship for 4 days and still couldn't find my way around when I got off the ship!!! There are always alot of things going on...on an aircraft carrier.

 

If you are interested you can check out the following links to still photos on Kodak Gallery and videos on YouTube...

 

Still photos: http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=iopr9ig.sjhp0zs&x=0&h=1&y=-kctkzr

 

Videos:

 

Have a great day!!! I always enjoy reading your posts...

 

Paul

Those were pretty cool... I think that's about the only way you can see an air show where they break the sound barrier! Sure is different than a cruise ship!

 

Thanks for sharing! My camera was not working when I was on my Tiger Cruise... :(

 

Theron

[prwjr]

Those were pretty cool... I think that's about the only way you can see an air show where they break the sound barrier! Sure is different than a cruise ship!

 

Thanks for sharing! My camera was not working when I was on my Tiger Cruise... :(

 

Theron

 

Hey Theron,

 

You must surely regret that your camera was not operable. Do you have a Sailor or Marine in your family?

 

And yes...a Tiger Cruise is much different than a pleasure cruise...but anyone can buy a ticket on a cruise ship...a cruise on a US Navy warship is by invitation only.

 

Enjoy your day...

 

Paul

[Snorkel2Much]

...It would almost seem that they would prefer a potential cruiser to not cruise at all, rather than take a cruise without a passport. This doesn't serve the interests of the Cruise Industry, or the passenger!

 

On the other site blog that I mentioned earlier, the author actually replied to my comment pointing out their dis-information with "Why promote the delay in getting a passport?" "Truth" is apparently only an option for some people.

 

Theron

I stumbled on "that site" shortly after you did. The only logic I can come up with for that authors motives is this:

Many "solely US" family vacation options do not normally involve the use of a travel agent (Fly to Disney, drive to a National Park, etc.). IMO TA's are more likely to be used for cruises, but I'm not saying it's necessary here.

 

If a family of 4 can be convinced to lay out $400-$500 for passports on their first cruise, they'll be strongly motivated to "get their moneys worth" by taking future family vacations out of the country, where they'll be more likely to use a TA.

[LA Lady]

Hubby and I just booked our first cruise that leaves in 6 weeks. We cannot find his original BC to obtain passports. Since we live in Louisiana, and Hurricane Katrina pretty much destroyed our vital statistics dept. in New Orleans, there is a 2 month wait time for copies, then another 4 weeks or so for passport time. We only have 6 weeks! I can get a copy of his BC on the internet for about $45 through an expedited vital statistics site. The man at Carnival told me that all we needed is a BC and driver's license. I know that is not the smart thing to do, in case we have to come home early, but what else can we do???

[cherylandtk]

Current processing times for passports is 2-3 weeks, but you have to send the BC in. You HAVE to have at least the certificed BC, so I would advise you to spend the $45 at vitalchek and take that with you. Does your itinerary allow you to use the BC/DL or do you need a passport?