Just Back - Norovirus Outbreak On Caribbean Princess - 4/1-4/8

[nrdsb4]

Yes, it's problematic. But, it's done all the time. When was the last time you had a culture before being treated for sinusitis (for instance)?

 

 

Personally, I haven't had an antibiotic since I was hospitalized for an infection that was actually cultured!:) Of course, the antibiotic was prescribed before the culture results were in, but with a 105 degree fever, they weren't messing around. Not a fun time, I must say. That was almost 13 years ago, but it seems like yesterday, lol.

[cbpanda]

You will find that norovirus is just as common on land, if not even more common, then it is on ships. Unlike ships....resorts, hotels, etc. do not have to report an oubreak.

 

Well glad you guys are feeling better.

How was the cruise otherwise? I cruised the CB over Thanksgiving and we loved it so much we are going back as soon as possible.

 

Agreed. Here in the Washington, DC area two hotels in the past 4 months closed down for complete cleaning after norovirus breakouts in each that sicken many guests.

[sppunk]

What handwipes/spray is best? I have often read most contains nothing that would actually kill the viral bacteria - if that's the case what should my wife and I look for?

 

We leave on CB in three weeks and, while avidly wash hands and avoid touching most anything, want to get the "correct" sanitizers!

[MaryPoppinz]

Personally, I haven't had an antibiotic since I was hospitalized for an infection that was actually cultured!:)

 

If you are ill enough to be hospitalized, it would be standard to put you on a best-guess antibiotic while a culture is cooking. Once it's determined that your illness is either viral or sensitive to a different antibiotic, a different decision can be made. Which is sort of what is happening with Cipro and GI illnesses (minus the culture, of course.:) ) It's usually just 3 days for these illnesses, so there is a risk:benefit assessment somewhere along the line that sometimes comes down in favor of the antibiotic rather than in favor of the whatif. That's the art of medicine.

 

Stay healthy!

[MaryPoppinz]

To each his own, but I'm going with this from now on:

http://www.germout.com/Germ%20Out%204%20oz%20Bottles.htm

 

If the alcohol is over 60%, it does kill viruses. (Purell is 61+%. The stuff onboard is somewhere in the 70's or so.)

[nrdsb4]

If you are ill enough to be hospitalized, it would be standard to put you on a best-guess antibiotic while a culture is cooking. Once it's determined that your illness is either viral or sensitive to a different antibiotic, a different decision can be made. Which is sort of what is happening with Cipro and GI illnesses (minus the culture, of course.:) ) It's usually just 3 days for these illnesses, so there is a risk:benefit assessment somewhere along the line that sometimes comes down in favor of the antibiotic rather than in favor of the whatif. That's the art of medicine.

 

Stay healthy!

 

Well, the problems we are seeing with antibiotic resistance lead some to believe that favoring the antibiotic too easily over the "what if" is not necessarily the best policy.

 

I'm just a nurse, certainly not an I.D doctor, but I have seen enough of this problem in my unit that I am definitely one to question the "standard" prescription of antibiotics for a stomach bug of unknown etiology when most cases resolve on their own sans intervention. Just my opinion.

[jlp20]

If I call 911 at 3:00AM, I expect an answer. The crew should not be stretched so thin that they can't respond to emergencies. Their answer might be that cleaning up can't be handled right now, but if I'm calling to say I'm having a heart attack right now, and

I need emergency help, I hope to god someone answers the phone.

 

If you were talking about your local poice department, you would have a case. However this is a cruise ship. They have THEIR own rules they go by. I would bet money that every cruise line has a minimal skeleton crew working on the hotel side in the wee hours. Once 4 or 6 employees are running around the ship for whatever reason, there's no one left to answer the phone.

[Livin4Real]

We were on this sailing and I was impressed with the way Princess handled the situation with the constant wiping down of everything and every night with the power washing and disinfecting of the loungers and all the public areas. While onboard we were told it started out in some kids and then worked it's way out to the other folks. The room directly across the hall from ours (we were in C420) was apparently infected, because when we opened our door to go to dinner one night the biohazard team was in full getup deconing their room, a little scary but we had no ill effects and were just a few feet away. Before the outbreak I saw kids time after time in the buffet reaching for food bare-handed, folks walking right past the hand sanitizing stations, etc. so it's no wonder it happens. We took the stairs alot to avoid as many cramped areas as we could, we still ate breakfast and lunch in the horizon court each day after it was found out to be floating around, still didn't get sick. We did scrub down our cabin as soon as we boarded which is an old habit anywhere we go. We wipe down everything possible and continue to do so throughout our stay (so whoever is in cabin C420 this week, it's really clean! , lol). We swam in the pools, shook hands with everyone we met just made a point of always having a miniature bottle of purell with us at all times and used it frequently. This was the best week of our lives hands down, so don't let it scare you away from cruising :)

[GoodAsGold]

Or Compazine?

 

The shot was probably phenergan, given to alleviate nausea and vomiting, and it does make you sleepy.

[pablo222]

Once 4 or 6 employees are running around the ship for whatever reason, there's no one left to answer the phone.

 

So, if I'm on Star Princess, and I'm calling 911 to report a fire

on my balcony, you think it's ok if everyone who is on duty

is off somewhere cleaning up vomit?

 

If I believed you, I'd never take a cruise.

[jlp20]

So, if I'm on Star Princess, and I'm calling 911 to report a fire

on my balcony, you think it's ok if everyone who is on duty

is off somewhere cleaning up vomit?

 

If I believed you, I'd never take a cruise.

 

And that is why I stated "on the hotel side". On the bridge and below decks on a ship the size of CP. I'm guessing 120-180 crew are on duty that time of day. No one from the laundry, water plant, engine room or bridge are leaving their work station to clean anything in a hall.

[MaryPoppinz]

I would bet money that every cruise line has a minimal skeleton crew working on the hotel side in the wee hours.

 

Is "the minimal skeleton crew working on the hotel side in the wee hours" responsible for taking 911 calls? As far as I know, there is an emergency command center -- totally unaffectd by what goes on in the hotel and not subject to the idea of a "skeleton crew."

 

I think it is a pretty serious issue to dial 911 (and the infirmary) on a ship and have it go unanswered. Nobody expects the dispatcher to get up and go clean vomit (or start CPR, or put out a fire.) But, everybody has a reasonable expectation that a dispatcher will be there to receive the call and awaken and dispatch the necessary members of the crew.

[paradiseseekers]

Hubby and I were on this sailing as well. We had a wonderful time, but things became a little stressful toward the end of the week. I kept telling him not to touch anything and walking down the hall seeing the clean up crew in bunny suits and masks was not a pretty sight. Puts a lttle damper on the whole trip...but we are fortunate we did not get sick.

Found an interseting website-www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/GIlist.htm#2007

which shows outbreaks on vessels since 1997.

Interesting to see how many Princess cruises had outbreaks along with others as well.

[hautehouse]

These two sanitizers are claiming to be specifically against norovirus:

 

http://www.sanitizerspray.com/Sanitizer_for_Norovirus_Sanitizers_Caliciviridae_Noro_Virus_Sanitizing.html

 

http://www.smart-san.com/surf_san.html

 

There is also a claim that a norovirus vaccine is in the works:

 

 

http://www.medilexicon.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=67024

 

At least some hope.

[chris2597]

To each his own, but I'm going with this from now on:

http://www.germout.com/Germ%20Out%204%20oz%20Bottles.htm

 

If the alcohol is over 60%, it does kill viruses. (Purell is 61+%. The stuff onboard is somewhere in the 70's or so.)

 

Does this sanitizer kill norovirus? If so, I am ordering some of it, along with the spray mentioned in a post.

 

Anyone know if you get an immunity to the virus once you have had it? I work in a school and rarely get sick after being exposed to so many "bugs" that are always swirling around.

[FloridaLaura]

This is from the report linked above re: being immune to Noro

 

Who gets norovirus infection?

Anyone can become infected with these viruses. There are many different strains of norovirus, which makes it difficult for a person’s body to develop long-lasting immunity. Therefore, norovirus illness can recur throughout a person’s lifetime. In addition, because of differences in genetic factors, some people are more likely to become infected and develop more severe illness than others.

[gambit57]

No one answering the 911 call is absolutely unacceptable. I understand it's a cruise ship and not a 911 center on land, but they still need to figure out a way to route it so that unanswered calls are routed somewhere where there's a person next to a phone. I don't care if it's routed to a bar, as long as the bartender can then pass on the message and alert someone more appropriate. Just so long as it's answered.

 

That said, I'm curious as to whether it's appropriate to call 911 for food poisoning or vomiting. This isn't a dig against the OP or anyone, I'm just curious personally. My parents took a very, errr, hands off approach to us when we were sick. So, I never entered a hospital emergency room until I was in college. However, because of that experience and often being in hospitals visiting friends/family who work in them, I've noticed that people go into emergency rooms for the stupidest reasons. Because of that, you wait hours unless you're about to die or something.

 

Anyways, I was just wondering if vomiting is something you even call 911 for? Can you die from that? When ever I got really sick like that, my parents just left me alone and checked once or twice a day to see if I was still breathing. Otherwise, I was left to fend for myself. I'm pretty sure that's not normal so I'm asking here. However, I know people who take their kids in to the emergency room for a cold. That's just asinine and a complete waste of time IMHO, but I had a weird childhood so I'd like to hear other opinions.

[MaryPoppinz]

There are certainly complications of vomiting that are emergencies, but I don't think that's what she was going for here. I believe the issue was that the OP was looking for someone to address a biohazard, not that she was seeking emergency medical care. She called the infirmary and got no answer and so she dialed 911 thinking, rightfully so, someone would be there and would understand the urgency of leaving infectious waste in the ship's corridor.

[pablo222]

And that is why I stated "on the hotel side". On the bridge and below decks on a ship the size of CP. I'm guessing 120-180 crew are on duty that time of day. No one from the laundry, water plant, engine room or bridge are leaving their work station to clean anything in a hall.

 

Your post makes no sense at all.

 

If you read what I wrote previously, I commented that I

certainly expect them to answer an emergency call, but

I care little if they can't get right to cleaning up vomit.

 

But, if someone is having a heart-attack, or has discovered

a fire, or some other emergency life threatening situation,

I hope to god it's not

Press (1) to report someone falling overboard

Press (2) if you've discovered a fire

Press (3) if you require emergency medical care

 

 

Here's what you wrote:

"Once 4 or 6 employees are running around the ship for whatever reason, there's no one left to answer the phone."

 

That is, in my opinion, complete nonsense. And, I notice that

that after a few posts, the 4-6 employees have now grown to 120-180.

 

I believe it's princess's contention that the pursar's desk is

manned 24 hours a day, to respond to emergencies. This

is mentioned in the 'stateroom guide' book.

 

What's the basis for your claim that there are only 4-6 employees

running around, and they're too busy to answer the phone?

[nrdsb4]

20-180.

 

I believe it's princess's contention that the pursar's desk is

manned 24 hours a day, to respond to emergencies. This

is mentioned in the 'stateroom guide' book.

 

 

I agree. There should always be someone in place to take 911 type calls. Can you imagine if you were actually in the throes of a heart attack (where immediate response can be the difference between life and death )and no one answers the phone?! Unacceptable, there is just no legitimate reason for not being able to get an answer on the emergency line.

[Beach4me]

First, a quick response to codex57 - the ship requests that you call 911. In fact, in our case, they handed out 3 different memos stating that it was "imperative" that 911 be called immediately upon the onset of Noro.

 

Second, calls to 911 do not go directly to the medical center. They go to a dispatcher. A couple times I called, the phone was busy! Also, these calls did not go to the Purser's desk (think someone questioned that). And while I KNOW they didn't, it sure sounded like the calls went to the ship's laundry or dishwashing area! I was always told that a doc or nurse would call me. When I got sick, it was about 20 minutes before I got a call from the doc. They had both me and my Mom walk down to the med center for treatment. We both carried bags for tossing our cookies into - still, I felt bad for anyone who was in (or would be in) the hallways we used. btw - I have to echo the comments about room service. I waited 2 hours once. And, while it was noted in my records that I am deathly allergic to cherries - and we mentioned it on every call to room service "absolutely can NOT have cherries" - all but one time, they brought me cherry jello with cherries in it. :eek: A couple times it occured to me that it might not have been such a bad alternative. ;)

 

I wasn't given any antibiotics. I was given a shot (promethazine) and 3 prescriptions (avomine, merbentyl, Loparamide). My Mom got the same - only she had to have 2 shots. Miraculously, Dad didn't get it. But trust me, he didn't have a lot of fun with 2 women puking for 4 days.

 

My quarantine was 55 hours with restrictions the rest of the cruise. Mom was still in quarantine when we docked. She had only been in quarantine for 38 hours when she was released to fly home.

 

I'll tell you this, as a long-time cruiser, Noro has swayed me away from cruising for the time-being. I have never been so sick. (I know I can get it on land, too. But at least I can get somewhere to be treated and then get home as soon as possible.)

 

And trust me - next time I take a cruise, I will carry a 6-pack of Gatorade with me. Lesson learned!

[gambit57]

err, I actually meant 911 on land for the flu and only slightly related to it being on a cruise ship. Guess I didn't make that clear. It's just something I started wondering about due to this thread. I can see why 911 is the thing to do on a ship cuz of noro. However, on land, most people don't live in such close proximities where noro can spread that quickly. Yet many still call 911 or go to hospital emergency rooms for something like noro or even the sniffles. And during the daytime, not at night when many medical offices are closed.

[kmtoner]

Beach4me is exactly right. Flyers and the Captain's "Code Red" announcement advised passengers to dial 911 if any norovirus symptoms surfaced. I'm sure this protocol was targeted toward containing the spread of the virus to other passengers and crew.

 

Certainly procedures and options are different at resort hotels. I don't expect any hotel to have a medical staff. I know that hospitals, ambulances, immediate care centers, and physicians are generally available from the local community and I'm familiar with how to reach them. A cruise ship is different. Princess provides the medical center, sells access to the passengers in the ticket price and/or a usage fee, and Princess announces the office hours and emergency access procedures.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Princess breached its contract last week. They promised a doctor's exam/care that they did not deliver. The services they did deliver were probably not up to a reasonable standard of care. And, the 911 line they promised to staff was not operating. We suffered no significant damages, but I still think Princess was at fault.

[jlp20]

These two sanitizers are claiming to be specifically against norovirus:

 

http://www.sanitizerspray.com/Sanitizer_for_Norovirus_Sanitizers_Caliciviridae_Noro_Virus_Sanitizing.html....

 

Several months ago, there was a rather lengthy thread about the Noro vs. Purel and the like. Bottom line it does help, by slightly “cleaning” the hands. It has no effect on the Noro unless you filled a bucket with the stuff and left your hands in it for a half hour or so. CDC states on their website that sanitizers may help in “cleaning” hands, but plain soap and water work the best. The Purel website makes claims about bacteria and a few virus strain, none of them the Noro.

 

That being said I took interest in the posting about the new product. Went to the website and what first drew my attention was the statement the product kills the “germs” that cause Noro. Since the Noro is not a germ, but a virus, I took a look at their “study” to back the claim. In a nutshell, they put a drop of diluted virus on a small sterile blotter. They then took the spray and held it six inches away and sprayed for five seconds. In fact they didn't spray, but immersed the blotter in their product. If we bother to take anything with us on the next trip, it will be a simple bleach based product that is simple and has always worked.

[MaryPoppinz]

Germ is sort of a non-specific term that covers bacteria, fungi, protozoa and viruses. :)