Miniture medals

[doublebzz]

Are you seriously suggesting that medals are worn to the opera? In all my opera going (which includes, but is not limited to, The Metropolitan, Covent Garden and the Wiener Staatsoper) I've never seen anyone wearing medals......

 

I'm surprised that you read into what I said that I was criticising the individual soldiers/sailors. Merely that the fact of the theatre in which they served might not make for comfortable dinner table conversation. After all, if the soldier concerned didn't approve of the campaign, he'd hardly wear the medal......

 

Matthew

 

As you might have guessed, I am retired military (U.S. Navy). As such, it is contrary to regulations to wear uniforms on other than military occasions. It is permissable to wear miniture medals whenever formal dress is being worn regardless of the occasion. And, yes, I have seen this at various venues including operas and concerts.

 

I never realized that the wearing of medals to show achievements in military service would be such an affront to some folks. I also never realized that wearing of these decorations would be construed as an endorsement of a particular war.

 

As the old saying goes, discussion of politics and religion probably should be avoided at the dinner table. Military medals in and of itself should not trigger a political debate any more than wearing a crucifix should prompt a discussion of religion.

[travel-to-go]

As you might have guessed, I am retired military (U.S. Navy). As such, it is contrary to regulations to wear uniforms on other than military occasions. It is permissable to wear miniture medals whenever formal dress is being worn regardless of the occasion. And, yes, I have seen this at various venues including operas and concerts.

 

I never realized that the wearing of medals to show achievements in military service would be such an affront to some folks. I also never realized that wearing of these decorations would be construed as an endorsement of a particular war.

 

As the old saying goes, discussion of politics and religion probably should be avoided at the dinner table. Military medals in and of itself should not trigger a political debate any more than wearing a crucifix should prompt a discussion of religion.

 

Well, sir,

I suspect you would know Customs and Courtesies as well as anyone!

Congratulations on your retirement. And your service.

 

Silent Service, by chance?

 

I live not too far from Groton.

 

In this day and age, I would never stoop so low as to attack a member of our military who is just doing his or her duty. They did not create whatever war they were in, or not in. Service is admirable. So, too, is the Quaker tenet of non-violence. I respect both.

 

And I would never criticize someone who (presumably) knows more than I do about the purpose and propriety of miniature medals. Were I at their table (or seated at the bar with them) it might be a point of interest. and if I were to ask, and they were to explain, I would most certainly not be boorish enough to start a row about it, no matter the purpose of the medal. If the medal were a sign of something I do not believe in, I might make a polite exit, and go about my business, or if at dinner, change the subject to something of a more "digestible" nature.

It would be rude to do otherwise.

 

Karie

[PRINSENDAM]

So M-L,

Are you saying that all of those long-time HAL cruisers cannot wear those big clunky heavy medals (You should see the folks with Osteoporosis wering them- don't get near the railing!) all at once on formal nights?

Aw heck.

Just as well. Our next HAL trip would be a medallion trip.

 

 

 

Of course the difference between a Platinum award with Cunard (100 days) compared with Platinum at HAL (700 days) is a bit like, as was stated earlier, comparing an Iraq campaign medal with the VC!!! :rolleyes:

 

 

Stephen

[PRINSENDAM]

As you might have guessed, I am retired military (U.S. Navy). As such, it is contrary to regulations to wear uniforms on other than military occasions. It is permissable to wear miniture medals whenever formal dress is being worn regardless of the occasion. And, yes, I have seen this at various venues including operas and concerts.

.

 

 

 

I am certain you are quite right on this. Miniatures can be work on any formal occasion. There are still a few officers on Cunard ships that wear medals on formal nights... usually officers that have been awarded the Falklands Campaign Medal, or the Merchant Navy Service medal, Royal Humane Society Medal, Royal Naval Reserve Service Medal. If the Captain can wear his medals on Formal night then so can everyone else... even if it does'n't say so in the dress code!

 

Stephen

[Brit and proud]

OOPS

 

When i posted this question it was to solve an agrument with a friend, i had no intention of removing my medals from the display case and wearing them on the cruise (10 would be many) i would also be fearfull of loosing them..

 

I am proud to have served my country and done some things that people may define as stupid, but in the heat of battle if someone acts in what they believe is for the best and if this saves lives..."THEN THEY CANT HAVE BEEN STUPID" :cool:

 

I didnt mean for it to end in a large have a go type debate

 

Brian

[LegalWeapon]

OOPS

 

When i posted this question it was to solve an agrument with a friend, i had no intention of removing my medals from the display case and wearing them on the cruise (10 would be many) i would also be fearfull of loosing them..

 

I am proud to have served my country and done some things that people may define as stupid, but in the heat of battle if someone acts in what they believe is for the best and if this saves lives..."THEN THEY CANT HAVE BEEN STUPID" :cool:

 

I didnt mean for it to end in a large have a go type debate

 

Brian

 

Brian,

 

Don't worry: your question was an appropriate one and clearly did not intend to stir any debate. Sometimes debates have a bad habit of appearing by themselves.

 

The soldiers in any army of each of the nations of this world are far too often the unsung heroes, sent to follow orders by those sitting comfortably behind their desks (gone are the days when kings and generals would lead their armies, risking their own lives). No option is given to the soldiers but to follow orders, and, on the battlefield, they find themselves in situations which would reduce most of us to quivering jellies, yet they fight on, regardless.

 

We can have no idea of what happens in war situations, since, the most we see, is a TV report, sitting in our comfortable armchairs.

 

Then, if a battle is won, the commander gets the kudos, if a battle is lost, the veterans get the criticisms and protests. I am thinking of two movies, both on the Vietnam War, "To heal a nation" (about the building of the Black Wall in Washington) and the final scenes of "First Blood" (yes, yes, Stallone's first Rambo) that give an insight on what soldiers must have gone through.

 

I have not served in the army of either my home country (Italy) or my adoptive country (the UK). I have been a civil servant for a number of years and have had a very strong belief in serving the public, in both of my home countries.

 

I also have the greatest respect for soldiers are sent daily to situations which could mean they deaths (and this is regardless of whether or not I agree with the various governments' decisions to enter into wars).

 

I think of all the army cemeteries of Allied Soldiers in Italy (or the ones I visited in Normandy) showing how many gave their lives for Europe, and my respect increases.

 

So (and I am sure there is no need of me telling you) do wear your medals with pride. They show, apart from anything else, that you were there doing your best for others.

 

Fabio

[PRINSENDAM]

Brian,

 

 

 

I also have the greatest respect for soldiers are sent daily to situations which could mean they deaths (and this is regardless of whether or not I agree with the various governments' decisions to enter into wars).

 

I think of all the army cemeteries of Allied Soldiers in Italy (or the ones I visited in Normandy) showing how many gave their lives for Europe, and my respect increases.

 

So (and I am sure there is no need of me telling you) do wear your medals with pride. They show, apart from anything else, that you were there doing your best for others.

 

Fabio

 

 

Fabio,

 

Well said!

 

Stephen

[happyscot]

OOPS

 

When i posted this question it was to solve an agrument with a friend, i had no intention of removing my medals from the display case and wearing them on the cruise (10 would be many) i would also be fearfull of loosing them..

 

I am proud to have served my country and done some things that people may define as stupid, but in the heat of battle if someone acts in what they believe is for the best and if this saves lives..."THEN THEY CANT HAVE BEEN STUPID" :cool:

 

I didnt mean for it to end in a large have a go type debate

 

Brian

 

10 medals is cool. Mind you, Mark Spitz got more.

 

My father served King, Queen and country for 33 years in the RAF. He served in all the pink bits, several times over. Names younger readers will not remember, like Aden, and Ceylon. He even served in Iraq when we were the goodies, in the late forties, and not an American "Mam I won the war on my own" Marine (US or Brit) in sight.

 

He got one medal. One. For long conduct or something. Everytime he was rushed somewhere, the war ended - no more medals. He left somewhere - the war started - medals all round. He fired one shot in 33 years - accidentally, on patrol, and peeled a lot of potatoes as a result. Was he bitter? Well, yes, actually.

 

Then my little brother joined up. For 7 years. Iraq, N Ireland, post-war Falklands, some places he couldn't talk about (Lossiemouth, I think). Four medals. FOUR. It was very funny. Very, very, very funny.

 

Dad didn't think so. I have his long conduct medal now - I'd rather have him. But he did his bit, and that's all we can do, isn't it?

[534]

But he did his bit, and that's all we can do, isn't it?

 

Very well said HS :)

[travel-to-go]

10 medals is cool. Mind you, Mark Spitz got more.

 

My father served King, Queen and country for 33 years in the RAF. He served in all the pink bits, several times over. Names younger readers will not remember, like Aden, and Ceylon. He even served in Iraq when we were the goodies, in the late forties, and not an American "Mam I won the war on my own" Marine (US or Brit) in sight.

 

He got one medal. One. For long conduct or something. Everytime he was rushed somewhere, the war ended - no more medals. He left somewhere - the war started - medals all round. He fired one shot in 33 years - accidentally, on patrol, and peeled a lot of potatoes as a result. Was he bitter? Well, yes, actually.

 

Then my little brother joined up. For 7 years. Iraq, N Ireland, post-war Falklands, some places he couldn't talk about (Lossiemouth, I think). Four medals. FOUR. It was very funny. Very, very, very funny.

 

Dad didn't think so. I have his long conduct medal now - I'd rather have him. But he did his bit, and that's all we can do, isn't it?

My heart goes to you Happyscot. I now have tears in my eyes.

 

And bless your Dad, wherever he (or his memory) is now. He, too served. Medal or no, the right people know. I believe that. Some people are silent heroes. In every endeavour. Some get the medals. Others get the (self) satisfaction of being true to themselves, and a job well done (if not recognized)

 

Thank you for sharing that.

 

Karie

[calikak]

I don't think I've ever seen someone wearing medals when not in uniform at a formal event. Then again, I live in a very casual city, and have yet to sail on Cunard. On one of our Princess cruises, we had the pleasure of sailing with a young couple on their honemyoon. The groom had just been commissioned as a Marine officer, and wow, did he look sharp in his uniform! I don't recall if he had any medals, though--if he did, it wasn't many because he had just come out of the ROTC program a few weeks before the wedding.

 

HS, I know what you mean about having your dad's medal. My grandfather is still MIA from the Korean War (he also served in WWII--he was one of those reservists that got sucked into Korea). Those of you from that era might remember when General Van Fleet's son disappeared? My grandfather was the navigator on that plane. Anyway, my grandmother remarried a few years after he disappeared, and so she kept all his medals, and the flag she got when he was declared dead, basically hidden in a trunk and never showed them to anyone until just before she died. Then she had them framed and gave them to my mom and uncle. It meant a lot to my mom to have those medals, but she still wishes she could at least know what happened to her father.

[travel-to-go]

HS, I know what you mean about having your dad's medal. My grandfather is still MIA from the Korean War (he also served in WWII--he was one of those reservists that got sucked into Korea). Those of you from that era might remember when General Van Fleet's son disappeared? My grandfather was the navigator on that plane. Anyway, my grandmother remarried a few years after he disappeared, and so she kept all his medals, and the flag she got when he was declared dead, basically hidden in a trunk and never showed them to anyone until just before she died. Then she had them framed and gave them to my mom and uncle. It meant a lot to my mom to have those medals, but she still wishes she could at least know what happened to her father.

That is a very sad story, Beth. Lately you hear so many of these sites where they are digging up planes bits and doing DNA matching finally, mostly from Vietnam. That has to be the most difficult thing.

As for the putting things away, Marc's uncle was a POW, shot down (he was the pilot) in WWII. He would never talk about it, I was told. I did not know this, so asked him about it. The whole family was shocked when he told me all, and the next Thanksgiving brought out scrapbooks, did an interview with the Portland Maine Newspaper and so on. He died the following January. Every one felt he knew his time was coming and he had to talk about what he had "buried" so long.

My thoughts to you on both of your Grandparents. It seems like it's only as we get older (and wiser?) that we understand some of their pain. Be sure to pass these stories on to your little guy as he gets old enough to understand his heritage! They are a part of him!

 

Karie

[exlondoner]

HappyScot, the world clearly desperately needs your father back. Think what he could achieve in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not just you who seem to be missing him.

Jane

[534]

How luck we are to have had and still have such brave heroes.

Betsy

[happyscot]

HappyScot, the world clearly desperately needs your father back. Think what he could achieve in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not just you who seem to be missing him.

Jane

 

 

Dad used to tell a story about his time in Iraq, helping the then odious monarch Faisal prepare (obviously by the time it had started, he'd been sent somewhere peaceful) to fight the folk who became the folk who became Saddam. In the British bombers of the day, 17 year old squaddies were sent into the jet engine cowlings to scrub them with a toothbrush or whatever. The old hands used to get the pilots to get the engines to make starting-up noises. Bowel evacuation followed by a thirty foot jump to the ground was the order of the day. So cruel, so funny.

 

Then the other story. Three young lads, his pals, straight off the farms of Perthshire, first posting, overalls soaked with aviation fuel and other crap, sloped off for a smoke. Boom. New pals required. The Health and Safety industry was born.

 

Different world, hey? Now we worry about whether the kettle has a thermo-stop function.

 

The bravery of these young men and women stands in stark contrast to the idiocy of the old men and women who send them there. That's you and me, by the way. You know what to do. Just do it.

 

xxxxx

[Cruachan]

The bravery of these young men and women stands in stark contrast to the idiocy of the old men and women who send them there. That's you and me, by the way. You know what to do. Just do it.

 

HS,

 

if I can be permitted to be serious just this once - it's not something that comes easily to me. On my battalion's first tour of Ulster, there were three people from my home town in Scotland, a place at that time of just under 2,000 population. They were Bill Watson, Stuart Gardner, and me - Bill was a Captain, Stuart a Second Lieutenant, and I was a private soldier. We'd all been to school together and knew each other well.

 

Bill and his Colour Sgt were blown to fragments by a booby trap bomb in South Armagh. Stuart Gardner arrived from officer training at Sandhurst roughly half way through the tour and within a fortnight was shot through the head in an ambush and killed - I didn't even know he was in the Province until I heard the news in the course of a phone call home.

 

I didn't understand then, and I don't understand to this day, why they were killed but not me. I suppose that I will carry the feelings of guilt to my grave as they sure as hell don't lessen with time.

 

As another small example of the sheer futility of it all, Headquarters the Ulster Defence Regiment used to maintain a roll of honour on a series of ornamental boards in the entrance foyer. The names of every member of the regiment killed by terrorist action were recorded on these boards and each board held approximately 30 names. In the first two years of my time with the UDR we added three full boards and started filling up a fourth.

 

As for medals, you can have my four to add to your collection, because I now find them utterly devoid of meaning. This is especially so as they were awarded on the basis of service in an operational theatre that is now being airbrushed out of history with quite indecent haste, while the terrorist filth who killed my friends are now queuing up for lucrative posts in the government.

 

OK - maudling rant over!

 

J

[exlondoner]

HS,

 

 

As for medals, you can have my four to add to your collection, because I now find them utterly devoid of meaning. This is especially so as they were awarded on the basis of service in an operational theatre that is now being airbrushed out of history with quite indecent haste, while the terrorist filth who killed my friends are now queuing up for lucrative posts in the government.

 

OK - maudling rant over!

 

J

 

And where was it those terrorists derived alot of their support, moral and financial?? Strange.

Jane

[calikak]

That is a very sad story, Beth. Lately you hear so many of these sites where they are digging up planes bits and doing DNA matching finally, mostly from Vietnam. That has to be the most difficult thing.

As for the putting things away, Marc's uncle was a POW, shot down (he was the pilot) in WWII. He would never talk about it, I was told. I did not know this, so asked him about it. The whole family was shocked when he told me all, and the next Thanksgiving brought out scrapbooks, did an interview with the Portland Maine Newspaper and so on. He died the following January. Every one felt he knew his time was coming and he had to talk about what he had "buried" so long.

My thoughts to you on both of your Grandparents. It seems like it's only as we get older (and wiser?) that we understand some of their pain. Be sure to pass these stories on to your little guy as he gets old enough to understand his heritage! They are a part of him!

 

Karie

 

Thanks Karie. There have been a lot more remains coming back from Vietnam than from Korea lately, since US relations with Vietnam are better than they are with North Korea. Although, the North Korean government did just turn over a few sets of remains a few months back. But the folks that do that work at the defense department are really brilliant, dedicated, compassionate people.

 

I didn't really "get" what it might have been like for my grandmother until I went to my first MIA family event (the Defense Department does events around the country to update the families on their work) and heard some of the other families talk about their loved ones. One woman talked about her husband, who was a pilot missing in Vietnam, as though he'd just gone out to the grocery store an hour ago and was due back any minute. For her, it wasn't some tragedy in the distant past like it is for me. Another man was there because his cousin was missing in Korea, and the man (who was probably in his 80s) just said "50 years" and then burst into tears. I think of them whenever I wonder why my grandmother was sometimes a little cold and distant. I probably would be too if I were her.

 

Cruachan, thank you for sharing your experience with us. And thank you for your service.