Is it "the ugly american"?

[PrincessDreams4P&B]

This topic has weighed heavily on my mind since I took part in a thread on Jamaica. My goal of this thread, IS NOT to get flamed, not to have people sniping at each other as on previous threads..but to see if we as a community of travelers can:

 

1.Find a way to effectively communicate to new/moderate travelers about a destination without tearing it apart (i.e. the jamaican thread) but not "glossing" over potiental threats.

** I love the island of Jamaica very much but I am very aware that this can be a place you have to have your wits about you. While it would not deter me from going, I am cautious when traveling there.**

 

2. Is there a way to educate travelers about how especially on a cruise where on the ship, everything tends to be 'Americanized" and we have the same comfort level we enjoy in the States, onboard, and it many of the threads I have been reading, travelers seem to think that they will receive the same thing on islands and in other countries. When they don't, it leads to a bad memory on their part and sometimes an "ugly American" image on those whose country we visited.

**I was such a traveler before moving to Europe to go to college, the year and a half I was over there, I immersed myself into the cultures that surrounded me and learned so much. It changed the way I viewed the world and showed me how the rest of the world sees the US. I was never more aware of this when I was in Rome and a woman was screaming at the top of her lungs at a McDonalds employee because he did not understand English. "I can't believe that you don't have to speak English in an American owned company"..she kept screaming at him. - it made an impression on me as to how some travelers can expect the rest of the world to be an extesion of the US**

 

Traveling is such a thrill for me and I am so excited to be able to share it with my children. I feel sad when I read that people had horrible experiences traveling when a good portion of them may have had better trips with a small change in mind set..sort of "When in Rome..".

 

Now let me put my exclaimer on here..I am not singling anyone out just a generalization of many things read over the last few months. I am not saying anything bad about the country that has given me the priviledge of so much and love so dear.

 

Maybe I am hoping for too much, and have my rose colored glasses on but I think that a healthy conversation can be had on the level of expectations people have when they travel and tips given to give other members insight on how to have a great trip.

 

See you on the Sea!

[Wennfred]

** I love the island of Jamaica very much but I am very aware that this can be a place you have to have your wits about you. While it would not deter me from going, I am cautious when traveling there.**

 

I'm glad that Wendy and I have traveled to Jamaica on a cruise ship and enjoyed it once there but today with the increase of tourist crimes, like someone else said recently on here, there are alot of other Caribbean islands that like our American dollars. Will I ever go back to Jamaica? No, its not as safe anymore.

 

 

 

Fred

[IndyGirl]

So what is the relationship between your point one and point two? I don't understand.

[PrincessDreams4P&B]

There has been so much "well you don't like this island then there must be something wrong with you" , or "Oh if you had a bad experience than suck it up" type attitude lately and I think some of that goes to some people have a more open mind to "I am not in the US anymore and I have to go by the rules of the country I am visiting", while others have difficulty in making that adjustment. I was hoping that other CC members could post tips or experiences as to how they were able to have minor issues but not let it ruin their trip.

 

I apologize if I am not making myself clear, I do not wish to confuse anyone.

[VentureMan_2000]

Seems like this thread would be better suited for the "Cruise Discussion Topics" forums, and not the Carnival forum.

[PrincessDreams4P&B]

Seems like this thread would be better suited for the "Cruise Discussion Topics" forums, and not the Carnival forum.

 

I agree.. however a lot of new cruisers come here if they are booked on a cruise and I was hoping it would be beneficial to them and others as they would be traveling on a Carnival cruise.

[Wennfred]

I think that for the most part every American that travels worldwide would fit in fine, except for the Drunk Ugly American.:D

 

 

Fred

[yst347]

I think any forum dealing with foreign travel where "do I need a passport" is a common topic....isn't a forum where world travelers are coming together for cultural exchange. That is in no way a slur on my fellow cruisers, simply an observation. There are many seasoned world travelers that contribute to this forum but there are also a large number of people who are leaving the USA for the first time, or have only spent a weekend at Niagara falls or an "all inclusive" in Cancun.

 

A port call on a Caribbean cruise isn't conducive to cultural enrichment. For those with little experience in foreign lands it seems normal to me to have a low comfort level with pushy vendors and drug peddlers. While I may not share the "dump Jamaica" view, I think it isn't accurate to attribute that view simply to Jingoism and chauvinism.

[pacerzfan]

Is it the "Ugly American" because after my trip to Montego Bay, it left a sour taste in my mouth? I personelly had a Jamaican Police Officer offer me drugs, while with my 2 DD's at 8 and 13. I had a Junta(?) taxi driver refuse to take us back to the port and made it so we had to walk through the "tourist village". Another of our group was robbed at gunpoint by a "taxi driver". Our taxi driver taking us to Sunset Beach resort offered a tour of Montego bay first for $25....then when we arrived at Sunset Beach the price changed to $40 not much but, kind of upset me.

Did we have fun at Sunset Beach Resort, definatly.

 

Will it keep me from Jamaica, no. Will it keep me from Montego Bay....still up in air...LOL We are going to try Ocho Rios on this trip, hopefully it will be better in my eyes.

[PrincessDreams4P&B]

Will it keep me from Montego Bay....still up in air...LOL We are going to try Ocho Rios on this trip, hopefully it will be better in my eyes.

 

 

Mo Bay is MUCH rougher than Ocho Rios...I would suggest a tour with Peat Taylor, he was great when we traveled there with our 2 sons, he keeps you safe and informed and looks out for you..

 

Looks like your on the Triumph a month before us, hope you have a great trip!

[VentureMan_2000]

I read a news article last week on yachtingmonthly.com where the UN and World Bank found Jamaica to be the world's most murderous country. So I'm not sure why anyone would want to defend Jamaica.

 

Here's an excerp:

 

 

...Meanwhile disturbing statistics about the Caribbean have been collated in a joint study by the UN and World Bank. According to the study the Caribbean is the world leader in violent crime: it has a murder rate of 30 per 100,000 inhabitants - four times the North American figure and 15 times the western European average. Jamaica is the world's most murderous country, followed by El Salvador, Guatemala and Venezuela...

 

...The upsurge in violence is mainly due to drug dealing - which has seen an increase for gangs in cash and weapons.

[flowerchild]

We felt downright scared in Mo Bay, and we live in BROOKLYN. We did not feel safe, other than in the tourist village outside the cruiseship terminal.We've been around the world and back and have never felt to intimidated. With so many other places to go to and experience, I can safely say that we have no desire to visit Jamaica again. Too many other beautiful caribbean islands that are much safer.

 

As far as being less of the ugly American and doing as the Romas do, whenever I visit a country, I try to learn a few words of the language and do some research before I get there. I learn about local customs and the communities I am visiting. I always keep in mind that I am a visitor, and the kind people I meet are my hosts. I treat them accordingly, with respect and thanks for thier hospitality, and I have never had an issue. For instance, so many people had warned us about the rudeness of the French; while in Paris, we tried out and stumbled through our best French phrases, were polite and respectful, and found the French to be lovely, educated and cultured poeple, eager to help us explore thier beautiful city. I did note that the French people were more reserved than Americans, and were quiet and kept to themselves. Does that make them rude? NO, just different from us louder, more outgoing Americans.

[3boysvus]

"I'm not sure why anyone would want to defend Jamaica."

 

Okay - I was trying to stay well away from this, but I can't...

 

Why do some defend Jamaica - for the same reason people defend everything - because they have not had THAT (whatever it may be) experience.

 

An example - Orlando - tourism is the life blood of Orlando. True. Orlando has a high, very high, crime and murder rate. Also true, and it is contiuing to rise. Do I go there? Everyday for work, and some weekends for fun. Would I live there? Nope, it's too expensive. (Note - not because of the crime.) Do I know anyone who has been murdered in Orlando? Yes, I do - quite a few infact, but I still go.

The same applies to Miami, or Detroit, or NYC, or LA.

 

People defend Jamaica because they don't let a few bad apples ruin the pie.

 

As for the ugly American - watch how many Americans act abroad, it's down right embarrassing. Do your homework and arm yourself with knowledge - knowledge of customs, facts, things to be careful of and avoid, good tour operators...

 

Some one here has the saying "be a traveler, not a tourist" on their signature - to me that sums it up.

[afcgirl]

"I'm not sure why anyone would want to defend Jamaica."

 

Okay - I was trying to stay well away from this, but I can't...

 

Why do some defend Jamaica - for the same reason people defend everything - because they have not had THAT (whatever it may be) experience.

 

An example - Orlando - tourism is the life blood of Orlando. True. Orlando has a high, very high, crime and murder rate. Also true, and it is contiuing to rise. Do I go there? Everyday for work, and some weekends for fun. Would I live there? Nope, it's too expensive. (Note - not because of the crime.) Do I know anyone who has been murdered in Orlando? Yes, I do - quite a few infact, but I still go.

The same applies to Miami, or Detroit, or NYC, or LA.

 

People defend Jamaica because they don't let a few bad apples ruin the pie.

 

As for the ugly American - watch how many Americans act abroad, it's down right embarrassing. Do your homework and arm yourself with knowledge - knowledge of customs, facts, things to be careful of and avoid, good tour operators...

 

Some one here has the saying "be a traveler, not a tourist" on their signature - to me that sums it up.

 

 

Okay, so you are saying that it is okay to generalize about Americans like you are doing by saying we are "embarassing", but that it is not okay to generalize about Jamaicans???? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

I think if the OP did not want to have arguments on here than he/she should not have used a derogatory term in the title.

[PrincessDreams4P&B]

This is so going downhill....:(

[dzcruisers]

"I'm not sure why anyone would want to defend Jamaica."

 

 

 

As for the ugly American - watch how many Americans act abroad, it's down right embarrassing. Do your homework and arm yourself with knowledge - knowledge of customs, facts, things to be careful of and avoid, good tour operators...

 

Some one here has the saying "be a traveler, not a tourist" on their signature - to me that sums it up.

 

You are right! Some Americans can make it extremely embarrassing for others. Some don't bother to educate themselves.

Had to laugh on our Mediterranean cruise at the lady who proclaimed that the Europeans were so stupid because they couldn't even speak English. Of course she had never learned one word of French, Spanish or Italian.

And we saw American couples letting their children(teenagers) run wild in St Mark's square, running into Italians who were strolling through without a courteous excuse me or slowing down. No respect at all was shown for the people who lived there.

Those are the kinds of people that get us all called "ugly Americans".

[Mikel1733]

 

As for the ugly American - watch how many Americans act abroad, it's down right embarrassing.

.

 

How do you know the people you see acting in an "embarrassing" manner are Americans? Does speaking English or sailing from an American port determine that?

[Amlee]

You are right! Some Americans can make it extremely embarrassing for others. Some don't bother to educate themselves.

Had to laugh on our Mediterranean cruise at the lady who proclaimed that the Europeans were so stupid because they couldn't even speak English. Of course she had never learned one word of French, Spanish or Italian.

And we saw American couples letting their children(teenagers) run wild in St Mark's square, running into Italians who were strolling through without a courteous excuse me or slowing down. No respect at all was shown for the people who lived there.

Those are the kinds of people that get us all called "ugly Americans".

 

That is in all cultures. I have heard the term "ugly Americans" for years now. But last fall while watching the changing of the guards in London. The term "ugly Tourist" came to mind. There was all types of people from all different countries pushing and shoving. It was awful. One Italian guy motioned for his daughter to push the people out of her way to so she could get a picture. I was disgusted with peoples actions that day.

[lovetodream]

This is so going downhill....:(

 

Your intentions are so good, that I can see. Please don't become discouraged :o

I gave lots of thought to your question before answering it because I wanted my response to be sincere & honest.

For me, having traveled quite a bit, I believe getting on in another country is about making a real extra effort to be super COURTEOUS & POLITE to locals whenever possible & as often as possible AND going with the flow. I always view myself as a humble GUEST of a city/region/country, etc. whenever I travel and I act accordingly.

So, some tips that help me are 1) I study up on local people and customs to familiarize myself with the country & its uniqueness, 2) I make an attempt, no matter how minor, to speak the native language, 3) I'm extra conscientious about saying "please, thank you, I'm sorry, excuse me, may I and your welcome," 4) I give the benefit of doubt to people, always assuming that a glitch is an honest mistake or oversight, 5) I keep my cool, 6) I remind myself that I am privledged to be on vacation, 7) I do TONS OF RESEARCH BEFOREHAND, so I can limit the number of assanine questions that I ask, 8) when in doubt, I keep my mouth shut and 9) I smile, a LOT!

Plus, I just treat people the way that I want to be treated.

I've also learned that you get much further with a smile than a scowl.

Finally, I will add this: I lived in New York City (Manhattan) for 12 yrs before moving to Michigan about 2 yrs ago. I frequently had to remind myself when I lived in NYC that I was the LOCAL while many folks around me were the TOURISTS! I had to remind myself to BE PATIENT with people & overlook ridiculous behavior! It was amazing to step back and view how tourists conducted themselves "in my space," and to recognize what offended me, and what did not...

I learned a lot about how to conduct myself in OTHER countries by studying how tourists treated me (and others) when I lived in Manhattan.

I think, too, that living & working in Manhattan, & working in the Bronx (for many yrs) sensitized me to people of many different cultures and opened my eyes up a LOT regarding American culture.

I hope that I have been helpful!

[3boysvus]

Okay, so you are saying that it is okay to generalize about Americans like you are doing by saying we are "embarassing", but that it is not okay to generalize about Jamaicans???? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

I think if the OP did not want to have arguments on here than he/she should not have used a derogatory term in the title.

 

 

Okay - first I said many not all Americans.

Second, I'm not generalizing...I don't think Americans should be labeled "Ugly" any more than say the French being labeled as "Rude", or Jamacians as murderers. Do some Americans fit the ugly title - sure. Are some French people rude - you bet. And some Jamaicans commit murder.

As for the embarrassing Americans - there are some, deal with it...what makes them Americans in my book things like:

1."I'm American don't f with me or we'll bomb you" yep actually heard that in St. Maarten from a fellow pax.

2. "It's a free country, I'll do what I want." - In China. From an Atlanta attorney no less. Yep and American

3. "I've got rights, get me a lawyer" - in Jamaica from someone from the ship caught with pot. Again a fellow pax that I know lives in Florida, we talked before we got to Jamaica.

That to me is embarrassing and makes us all look stupid and rude, because like it or not people do generalize.

 

People base their information on what they know and who they know, if all you know is bad, then you have a bad generalization.

 

Look, I'm just saying arm yourself with information about where you're going, good information - not necessarily media hype or jaded opinions.

 

As I said "Be a traveler, not a tourist."

 

To the OP I do appreciate what you were trying to do, and hope I did not inadvertantly mess that up for you.

[firefly333]

On a thread a few days ago, not sure if it is the one the OP referred to, someone mentioned the term Ugly American. Someone else posted back, the person was Canadian. I personally hate the term and think it is name calling and should not be used here at all. why use that term?

[Amlee]

Okay - first I said many not all Americans.

Second, I'm not generalizing...I don't think Americans should be labeled "Ugly" any more than say the French being labeled as "Rude", or Jamacians as murderers. Do some Americans fit the ugly title - sure. Are some French people rude - you bet. And some Jamaicans commit murder.

As for the embarrassing Americans - there are some, deal with it...what makes them Americans in my book things like:

1."I'm American don't f with me or we'll bomb you" yep actually heard that in St. Maarten from a fellow pax.

2. "It's a free country, I'll do what I want." - In China. From an Atlanta attorney no less. Yep and American

3. "I've got rights, get me a lawyer" - in Jamaica from someone from the ship caught with pot. Again a fellow pax that I know lives in Florida, we talked before we got to Jamaica.

That to me is embarrassing and makes us all look stupid and rude, because like it or not people do generalize.

 

People base their information on what they know and who they know, if all you know is bad, then you have a bad generalization.

 

Look, I'm just saying arm yourself with information about where you're going, good information - not necessarily media hype or jaded opinions.

 

As I said "Be a traveler, not a tourist."

 

To the OP I do appreciate what you were trying to do, and hope I did not inadvertantly mess that up for you.

 

It drove me nuts when the Holloway girl went missing in Aruba. People had a hard time understanding that American laws and rules didn't apply.

 

Another was in London last fall when an American women was yelling at a cashier for not taking the dollar. The cashier explained that the store only took the pound. The women proceeded to scream at the girl.

 

Loved the Spanish guy on Celebrity Century who complained in ENGLISH that the muster drill wasn't done in Spainsh. :rolleyes:

[PrincessDreams4P&B]

I think if the OP did not want to have arguments on here than he/she should not have used a derogatory term in the title.

 

The term "ugly American" is used very often outside of the US.

 

It was my intent to try and get practical advice for travelers so that when traveling they could help to dispell that stereotype, hence why it was put in quotations. The rest of my post clearly states what my intent was and how it was not.

 

I am finding more and more on these boards that some people do not read what is actually written by posters and that a snippet of what was said is taken out of context or people are just looking for a fight. I was and still am, extremely interested in helping make the travel experience as easy and enjoyable by giving as much advice as I have learned as well as learning from others who have seen and done more than I.

 

I do not understand why things are often taken so personally on here.

 

If people want a fight..try the UFC....I prefer to talk about and learn all I can to make my travel experience all the richer...

[The_Geek]

"I'm not sure why anyone would want to defend Jamaica."

 

Okay - I was trying to stay well away from this, but I can't...

 

Why do some defend Jamaica - for the same reason people defend everything - because they have not had THAT (whatever it may be) experience.

 

 

 

People defend Jamaica because they don't let a few bad apples ruin the pie.

 

 

I have been to Jamaica once and will never go back. My experience was not bad, I was not harassed or bothered at all. I am a fairly large Rugby Player , I never come across as an "easy target" nor do I act scared. I will not travel to this pathetic excuse for a country because of their treatment of homosexuals. I am straight, but I do have gay and lesbian friends. I refuse to give my money to a country that would kill my friends just because of their "lifestyle".

[VentureMan_2000]

I refuse to give my money to a country that would kill my friends just because of their "lifestyle".

 

 

 

Almost sounds like they do not really need a reason for murder there... :eek: