Terminal 5 at Heathrow -- merged discussion

[Sequim88]

From the Aer Lingus website, it shows their April 29 flights, as an example, leaving Heathrow from Terminal 1. THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Thank you!

[coxswain]

Weekend travel misery for Heathrow Terminal 5 passengers has been confirmed after British Airways announced 54 flights have been cancelled tomorrow.

 

27 flights sheduled to leave the terminal on Saturday have been scrapped, along with the same number of planned arrivals.

 

It follows the cancellation of 36 flights today.

 

 

 

jj....

[TLCOhio]

The third day update at Heathrow Terminal 5 continues to be marginal. The good news is that this only involves BA flights through Terminal 5, not other airlines at Terminals 1-4. The head of BA admits it is not their "finest hour", flipping Mr. Churchill's famed words upside down! From Bloomberg, they have headlined today: "British Airways Cancels Flights for a Third Day at Terminal 5" with these details: "British Airways Plc canceled 54 flights today as the chaos at London Heathrow airport's new Terminal 5 stretched into a third day. Europe's third-largest carrier plans to operate 293 of 347 flights, or about 85 percent of its services, from Terminal 5. BA pulled more than 100 flights during the first two days of the terminal's operation, after computer log-on failures for baggage handlers and delays at staff car parks sparked turmoil." Their story also noted: "British Airways was already Europe's worst airline for lost luggage and the second-worst for delayed bags, according to the Air Transport Users Council. The flights being canceled today are domestic or European. All long-haul services are scheduled to operate as normal."

 

Other various news highlights/comments were: "a wave of compensation claims from passengers will run into millions of pounds", the British Chambers of Commerce said T5 was a "PR disaster for London and the UK", "British Airways is facing fines of up to £5,000 per passenger for breaking European rules by misleading the hundreds of travellers stranded at Heathrow about their compensation rights" and "IT should have been the BEST of British. Instead, Terminal 5 is a farce that makes us the laughing stock of the world. For weeks, I’ve been inundated with information about the chic boutiques, celebrity restaurants and high-class lounges. But NONE of those is any good if you can’t go anywhere or guarantee your luggage will get there with you. Staff brawls and passenger misery shame what should have been BA’s finest hour."

 

London has a great range of newspapers and they have given this story lots of detailed coverage. And on TV, the visuals don't make for a pretty picture. THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[coxswain]

At least 15,000 bags are stranded at Heathrow airport after a third day of cancellations at the new Terminal 5.

 

The news came after one-fifth of British Airways flights from the troubled terminal were scrapped on Saturday - 67 out of the 330 scheduled.

 

Many passengers said they departed on flights after being told their luggage would not be travelling. A further 37 flights have been cancelled for Sunday.

 

The airline has also scrapped its £100 limit for delayed passengers' hotels.

 

BA has confirmed an estimated 15,000 bags are stranded but one source has told the BBC that the number may be closer to 20,000.

 

The bags are stacked up across all terminals at the airport, after problems with BA flights coming in and out of the new terminal.

 

 

 

 

 

jj.......

[coxswain]

Flight cancellations at the new Terminal 5 of London's Heathrow Airport will continue well into next week.

 

British Airways plans to operate about 85% of flights on Sunday, 87% on Monday and Tuesday and a "progressively larger flying programme" throughout the week.

 

Only about 80% of flights were taking off on Saturday - 67 cancellations from the 330 scheduled - and many passengers had to fly without their luggage.

 

Check-in was suspended for an hour after 0900 GMT on Saturday as airport workers attempted to deal with the backlog of bags.

 

On one of the delayed planes, passengers on flight BA0662 to Larnaca were held on the tarmac for some four hours before leaving at 1205 GMT.

 

A group of school pupils on flight BA285 to San Francisco also said they were told by the airline that their bags were not on board and they could choose whether or not to travel. They were bound for a skiing trip.

 

"It could ruin it because we are scheduled to start ski-ing tomorrow," said one schoolgirl, Natalie Bakhurst.

 

 

 

 

jj.....

[SelectSys]

I wonder if this system is an update of the BAE system provided to DIA that heralded its disastrous entrance into service? While I'm sure they will get this right, eventually, it will be interesting to see how T5 plays out for BA, BAA, and Heathrow.

 

This week's Economist has a couple of interesting articles on the subject -

 

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10924139

"With the closure of Hong Kong's Kai Tak a decade ago, Heathrow ranks as the airport that does most harm to people living nearby. Thanks to its westerly winds and the east-west axis of its two runways, about 2m people in West London and neighbouring towns endure noise, air pollution and the small, ever-present risk of a catastrophic accident. ...

 

The government thinks this hell is worth it: the British economy benefits from having Heathrow as a competitive hub airport, because the more transit passengers there are—they have grown from 9% of the total in 1992 to 35% in 2004—the bigger the route network and the more valuable the airport is to Britons. But Heathrow will never be a desirable hub airport, because of where it is. It will continue to be out-gunned by Paris Charles de Gaulle, Amsterdam Schiphol and Frankfurt, all of which have twice the runway space, greater potential for expansion and better surface transport. ...

 

Higher charges would drive transit passengers to the hubs in continental Europe. That would be no great loss. Although transit passengers help BA and BAA, they do little for Britain's economy. If the route network shrinks, the least-useful routes go first. In any case, because lots of people want to fly to and from London, transit passengers are less crucial to maintaining Heathrow's route network than the government thinks.

"

 

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10923778

"Expansion looks like the obvious answer to the well publicised problems of an international airport that is both the world's busiest and the one most loathed by those who use it. Heathrow is beyond full, and a new runway and another new terminal would provide a bit more room.

However, obvious answers are not always the best. Additional capacity would be quickly filled. Rival airports, notably in continental Europe, already have the capacity and room to grow that Heathrow will always lack. Higher prices for Heathrow's capacity, and more competition from other London airports, may be a better answer to the squeeze than making the old airport bigger."

[MetravelUtoo?]

I am flying BA nonstop from LAX on 04/23 and back on VA 05/03. Do you see cause for me to be concerned?? (Flights were arranged by Celebrity Cruiseline - if that makes any difference).

 

Thanks!

Jyl

[daiB]

I am flying BA nonstop from LAX on 04/23 and back on VA 05/03. Do you see cause for me to be concerned?? (Flights were arranged by Celebrity Cruiseline - if that makes any difference).

 

Thanks!

Jyl

 

 

Hi Jyl

 

I would hope they have it sorted by then. The flights which are being disrupted at the moment are the internal ones.

 

The new terminal should make it a lot better once the teething problems are out of the way.

 

Enjoy your cruise.

 

 

 

:):)Happy Cruising:):)

 

 

 

:cool:

 

 

Dai

[TLCOhio]

I would hope they have it sorted by then. The flights which are being disrupted at the moment are the internal ones. Dai

 

Agree. Fortunately, you're flying into Heathrow AND not transfering to another flight within England. And they've got a few more weeks to fix and improve. Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[MetravelUtoo?]

Thank you Dai and Terry - I appreciate your input and am hoping for smooth sailing AND flying!! :D

[Globaliser]

Fortunately, you're flying into Heathrow AND not transfering to another flight within England.

Actually, there are some short-haul international flights being cancelled as well, although a quick run-through suggests that it's mostly on routes where there are several flights a day so as to minimise the disruption.

[coxswain]

British Airways Chief Executive Willie Walsh has told Jeff Randall he will not resign over the T5 fiasco, despite taking "full responsibility" for the Heathrow travel disruptions.

 

But Mr Walsh said the buck stopped with him over the travel trouble and urged disgruntled passengers to blame him rather than his staff for the disruptions.

 

He also confirmed 19,000 bags of passenger luggage have been placed in temporary storage following the first-day breakdown in the baggage system.

 

Mr Walsh said he was "determined" to turn the under-fire facility around.

 

 

 

 

 

jj.....

[daiB]

Hi Jyl again,

 

In his speech in the House of Commons the Transport minister said that there were few delays on incoming baggage. With the the average time of pick up being 7/8 minutes, as good as, or better than the other terminals.

 

As you are Virgin on your return you will not go through T5.

 

 

BTW - Old Coxswain does like to be the doom merchant:D.

 

What is he going to do next week if,:confused: they get it sorted out:D

 

 

 

:)Happy Cruising:)

 

 

 

 

:cool:

 

 

Dai

[Globaliser]

But Mr Walsh said the buck stopped with him over the travel trouble and urged disgruntled passengers to blame him rather than his staff for the disruptions.

It depends what you mean by "staff". This time, I really do believe that it's not any of the front line people, not even the most militant types. Rather, it seems to have been a failure of the layers of management between them and the senior executives. I wonder if BA has started clearing out those ranks yet? This would be a good time to look at performance-related redundancies!

BTW - Old Coxswain does like to be the doom merchant :D.

Yes, although on this occasion those who like to indulge in our national pastime of tall poppy syndrome could be excused for having a good moan.

[TLCOhio]

Under this headline:

British Airways Brings in FedEx to Reduce Bag Backlog

Bloomberg News had these added details: "British Airways Plc canceled 50 flights at London Heathrow airport's new Terminal 5 and brought in U.S. courier firm FedEx Corp. to help reunite passengers with about 20,000 delayed bags. The airline scrapped 13 percent of scheduled flights from the terminal on the sixth day of disruption at Europe's busiest airport. Another 50 flights will be abandoned tomorrow, British Airways spokeswoman Sophie Greenyer said."

 

The LA Times had a reporter in London who did a full report and summary today, including the rather nasty debate yesterday in Parliament with the attacks on this mess. CNN just had a report on these problems. Now that it is April 1, no fooling, the deadline is getting close for when the OneWorld air partners to BA must make added terminal changes and more of the BA flights were scheduled to be placed in Terminal 5. On the sixth day, it doesn't seem that much progress is happening with so many scrubbed flights still happening..

 

Terry in Ohio

[Globaliser]

Now that it is April 1, no fooling, the deadline is getting close for when the OneWorld air partners to BA must make added terminal changes and more of the BA flights were scheduled to be placed in Terminal 5. On the sixth day, it doesn't seem that much progress is happening with so many scrubbed flights still happening..

The first move was 27 March. The next move into T5 (which is of BA flights only and does not affect oneworld partners) is 30 April, so still more than 4 weeks away.

 

The move that does affect oneworld partners is 17 September, and that doesn't affect Terminal 5!

[TLCOhio]

The next move into T5 (which is of BA flights only and does not affect oneworld partners) is 30 April, so still more than 4 weeks away. The move that does affect oneworld partners is 17 September, and that doesn't affect Terminal 5!

 

From http://www.etravelblackboardasia.com/article.asp?id=52174&nav=109

they note the whole "domino effect" as to how they need to be opening up one terminal in order to get part of Terminal 3 ready to consolidate others into there during the months ahead. Here are more details:

"Passengers flying to or from London Heathrow or connecting at the airport are being reminded to check which terminal their flights will use approximately 50 airlines there - including British Airways and a number of other oneworld® members - switch locations in series of moves starting from March 27. The changes will see oneworld airlines consolidate their operations at their main European hub from across all four of the existing terminals into just two terminals."

 

In the Los Angeles Times story today was this highlight for what's ahead: On April 30, it (BA) plans to transition its entire long-haul catalog to the new terminal. "The logistics of loading and turning around jumbo jets, as opposed to small ones, is much more complicated," said Jamie Bowden, an aviation analyst and former British Airways manager. The airline, he said, may be considering a delay. "British Airways, corporately, in terms of their reputation, cannot afford to have another mess like they had this week," Bowden said. "People I've spoken to in the company the last few days, they feel a degree of shame, they feel humiliated, they feel let down by their own senior bosses, and many of them feel the day they had looked forward to for so many years has turned out to be the greatest disappointment of their entire careers.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[TLCOhio]

Here are three news highlights in the past couple hours that update on the Heathrow Terminal 5 situation. Don't blame me or April Fools for this stuff. Who is creative enough make to make it up?

 

From BBC, April 1: Thousands of suitcases are being sent to Milan by British Airways from Heathrow Terminal 5 to try and help sort out the backlog of 19,000 bags. BA said it was "quicker for bags with European mainland addresses to go to Milan for sorting". A BA spokesman said: "Delayed bags must undergo enhanced levels of security screening. "Much of this process must be done manually rather than using the automated baggage systems. It is quicker for bags with European mainland addresses to go to Milan for sorting and onward transport than waiting for space to appear on flights leaving Heathrow."

 

From Wall Street Journal, late Tuesday afternoon: The U.K. airline planned to scrap 50 of the 392 flights scheduled to arrive or depart T5 Tuesday and Wednesday, while 32 of the 396 flights scheduled for Thursday are set to be canceled, the spokesman said. On Friday, 34 flights of the total 394 planned are set to be pulled, he said. BA has already had to cancel about 300 flights since the new terminal opened March 27.

 

From tomorrow's London Telegraph column about how it might not be all BA's fault. Blame could be placed on the airport operator: BAA, now Spanish owned, is groaning under a mountain of debt. The chief executive was recently booted out. It's a quasi monopoly that needs streamlining by the purgative of competition. As for customer welfare, BAA's idea of a good day is for travellers to spend hours shopping in departure-lounge malls, rather than whizzing on to planes. Long delays, even those not of its making, keep the tills ringing.

 

Terry in Ohio

[TLCOhio]

There appears to be progress at Heathrow's Terminal 5 and for British Airways. This is the headline today: British Airways Aims for Full Saturday Schedule at T5

 

Today/April 3 from Bloomberg and other news sources, here are the key highlights: British Airways plans to operate a full schedule of flights on Saturday, April 5, ending nine days of cancellations and delays . . . . British Airways aims to provide all 322 timetabled services from Terminal 5, said Tony Cane, a spokesman for the London-based carrier. Europe's third-biggest airline has scrapped almost 450 flights since the 4.3 billion-pound ($8.5 billion) Terminal 5 opened on March 27 after 20 years of planning and construction. The carrier blamed the cancellations on a glitch in the computerized baggage-sorting system and staff "familiarization'' issues.

 

British Airways is still working to clear a backlog of about 20,000 bags, bringing in 400 volunteers from within the company and courier firms including FedEx Corp. to help. British Airways' usually has fewer flights at the weekend than other days. The carrier abandoned 32 out of 396 services today and plans to scrap 34 out of 394 tomorrow, or a little less than 10 percent of the scheduled program. The cancellations have been restricted to short-haul locations where British Airways has multiple flights so that passengers can rebook on later services. British Airways is already the continent's worst carrier for lost luggage and the second-worst for delayed bags, according to the Air Transport Users Council. Heathrow was the worst airport in Europe for flight delays in 2007, according to the Association of European Airlines.

 

That's the latest update! We'll see how it works, if they have really solved the baggage problems and if they can be back on schedule for all of the other changes impacting other airlines and terminal consolidations at Heathrow, etc. As noted above, the past history has not been good. Hoping for the best for those of us going through Heathrow later this year. Terry in Ohio

[Globaliser]

We'll see how it works, if they have really solved the baggage problems and if they can be back on schedule for all of the other changes impacting other airlines and terminal consolidations at Heathrow, etc. As noted above, the past history has not been good.

It will be good if they can get back to operating a normal schedule.

 

The noises I've been hearing suggest that for the flights that have been operating, the baggage system has in general been working well. The hardware doesn't seem to be a big problem - that's usually been the problem at all the other new airports/terminals that had baggage system meltdowns when they opened.

 

And at least when it's all running properly after the second wave of moves (30 April) BA will have largely got rid of the biggest structural problem in the Heathrow baggage handling department: operating from multiple terminals.

 

Funnily enough, I was booked to fly out of T5 tonight, but can't go. I may go tomorrow night instead, but we'll have to see. It would be interesting to see it in operation at first hand. Pretending to be a passenger during trials really wasn't quite the same thing.

[TLCOhio]

I was booked to fly out of T5 tonight, but can't go. I may go tomorrow night instead, but we'll have to see. It would be interesting to see it in operation at first hand. Pretending to be a passenger during trials really wasn't quite the same thing.

 

Best of luck! We look forward to hearing your first-hand reports, hopefully with success and other interesting details. Terry in Ohio

[Globaliser]

Best of luck! We look forward to hearing your first-hand reports, hopefully with success and other interesting details.

Thanks, but unfortunately no trip for me this weekend now.

 

And it'll probably be a little while now before I get to use T5. My next planned trip will be from T4.

[handfordr]

Met the wife at lunch time at T5, she thought it was a slight improvement on T1 and had a totally uneventful experience. At the end of the day its just an airport terminal after all. Out with baggage in 45 minutes.

[Globaliser]

Heard a report on the radio news this morning that made me laugh, saying something like "British Airways is promising to run a normal service from Terminal 5 today".

 

I think the sub-editors ought to have looked a bit more closely at that one!

 

(Or maybe they did. ;))

 

No cancellations yet, by the looks of things.

[coxswain]

T5 Baggage System Crashes again !!

 

 

A new fault with the baggage handling system at Heathrow's Terminal 5 building has caused more flight cancellations and delays.

 

 

BA executives had hoped to operate a full schedule for the first time since the terminal's disastrous opening.

 

But the computer-operated baggage system has crashed and luggage is now being sorted manually before being loaded on to planes.

 

BAA has taken responsibility for the software problem.

 

A spokesman said: "We apologise to British Airways and all passengers who have been affected and can assure them that our specialist staff are working hard to resolve the problem and keep disruption to BA's operation to a minimum."

 

A BA spokesman said: "Today's failure affects the baggage reconciliation system. This ensures that for security reasons we do not load any bags onto the aircraft where the passenger is not travelling.

 

"We are now having to manually reconcile bags for each flight which takes considerably more time than using the automated system.

 

"This has led to flight delays and as a result we have had to make a number of shorthaul cancellations. We apologise to passengers for the inconvenience."

 

 

 

 

 

jj....