MakingUpForLostTime

5 hours ago, Mercruiser said:

I was wondering if cruise lines are still making port calls in Peru. Fred Olsen Cruise Lines' MV Balmoral made her port call in Lima today.

 

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:369172/zoom:14

 

It could very well be just a technical stop for food/fuel etc. Several ships are not letting passengers off. How do we find out? 

22 hours ago, pirokp said:

RCCL sells Azamara.  I guess my October post was more than a thought.

Congrats, you nailed it!

So let me understand. A 21 year old ship that is no longer good enough for Princess Cruises that will be 23 years old when it gets into service is good enough for Azamara, a so called “premium cruise line” .

It’s kind of insulting to the brand. Cheaper cruise lines get brand new state of the art ships and Azamara gets the scraps.

and the crowd erupts in applause! 
 

Most of the Azamara passengers I have talked to about the ships were wondering how long Azamara could sell us the old ship kool-aid before we woke up. I guess everyone here loves old slippers and is willing to overlook the irony of the situation.

28 minutes ago, TeaBag said:

There's one somewhere with a very annoying bat also.

 

Why move the bug to the bottom of the post?  I took lost time off my ignore list only to see the bug is not gone, just moved, so back it goes.

What bug?

2 minutes ago, SteveH2508 said:

Thank you for changing that annoying avatar.

 

Personally speaking, as a member of several different forums, if I see that avatar (which is annoyingly common), I immediately think "stirrer, troll, etc.. It is a good combat indicator (I'm not aiming this at you - it is a general observation).

Probably right. Old habits die hard.

22 minutes ago, avw said:So many experts, all with opinions but not one has any inside knowledge.

The mere fact you stated that no one has inside knowledge is interesting. Is that assumption based on fact or is that your opinion?

I prefer to show respect for those with credible track records. The beauty is that all our posts are available in our history. When people make predictions and they come to fruition, Is that luck, inside knowledge or expertise? I like discussions that test our ability to think outside the box and really have no use for mediocrity. I am not looking for an I told you so, however a little respect for people who challenge and push the bounds would be nice

20 minutes ago, avw said:

You are absolutely right! So many experts, all with opinions but not one has any inside knowledge.

 

By the way, "Lost Time", that bug is VERY annoying!

What bug?

1 hour ago, uktog said:

Maybe it was their former owners who were not giving them the space or permission to find a fit and now they have that opportunity?

Could be. Problem for me is that if the second largest cruise company in the world could not make it fit, how is it that Sycamore can? Seems that a lot of benefit of the doubt is in play here where common sense would lead to other conclusions. The only thing that is being taken for granted is that they got a good deal. We don’t know what liabilities is being assumed by the new company other than deposits and paid cruises. Will those deposits be placed into a trust account or is the liability being offset to lower the cost per vessel? So much risk for FCC holders during uncertain times and for the short term future. This requires very deep pockets.

How many times has Azamara changed its name and loyalty program name? It’s like they never really could make it fit.

Just now, ECCruise said:

1) No one is attacking you.  I actually called your points "fine and valid."  Sensitive parchance? 

2) The 5 years at best was WHY I said "no way."

3) I clearly said "likely profitable" based on per diems and load factors.  I do not have the financials, nor do you.

4) CC has a cool feature.

Sorry, my apologies. There are a few people on this thread who do attack. You are not one of them.

i believe every possibility is on the table. I like to discuss those possibilities based on past experience and fact. There is a possibility and for good reason that RCG could enter this space again and not to far off which could be the end of Azamara. In my opinion RCG not making Azamara equal in its growth strategy (new ships) was a mistake. I believe they are doing the right thing today and we may be surprised tomorrow.

4 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

No way does RCG start a new premium line to compete with Azamara.  Maybe you would see that competition in 5 years.  At best.  To what end?  I am just not in the "old bad, new good" camp in any way.  Obviously, that is your focus, since you bring it up constantly, and that is fine and valid.

 

I think we need to remember why Azamara even existed at all in the RCG (nee RCL) stable.  It was because  FDR rebuffed them in the purchase of Oceania, they got their feelings hurt, and said "OK, we will compete with you at your game." Voila, Azamara as a separate entity. 

 

So maybe selling a likely profitable division at a fire sale price and building $2-3 billion dollars of new inventory isn't as far fetched as my initial reaction indicated.

I am in the “reality camp” not the “let’s attack anyone who is not positive like us” camp.

On one hand you say “no way” and the next sentence you say “Maybe...in 5 years”. I can’t comprehend contradiction at the expense of potential business focus and shift.

You mention profitable? Please provide some facts around this claim.

Much appreciated.

1 minute ago, ECCruise said:

Some undoubtable will.  Many, many more will not. We, for example have absolutely no desire to sail Silversea.  Not for their pricing, not for their "ambiance" and definitely not for their 1990s mismash of formal, informal and casual dress standards.  We typically only sail longer itineraries, so our packing would need to accommodate something like this for a 15 day sailing. 

 

Formal    Informal    Casual

3               8                 4

 

And it is a huge leap from Celebrity to Silversea, even with their ill advised "all included" nonsense.

Perhaps RCL knew Azamara was done and the time was right to cash out any money and write if off, with future plans of starting a new cruise line with newer ships to cater to the premium market. RCL has the experience to start another cruise line to compete directly with Azamara and their 3 maybe 4 - 20 year old ships? RCL would never be stupid enough to sign a non-compete for that segment. This could be a smart move. Some Azamara customers will move to Silversea and some are ok with Celebrity. Yes some will not. New Azamara owners have a lot to consider how they tackle all of this.

59 minutes ago, SteveH2508 said:

 In the short(er) term they need to concentrate on getting back loyal customers and attracting disenchanted customers from other lines. Time may tell.

Yes!

if they spend more effort and money to do this, then the mere act will shape the company ideology which in return will be the single largest contributor to their long term success. This will define their success. You can spend millions attracting new customers to old ships or solidifying your loyal relationships if the past to save your future. They will be competing against RCL who has the experience and customer database that used to move customers up the food chain to Azamara. Many of those future customers will now go to Silversea

Silversea - Its owners invested in buying 100% - new ships over the past few years and new ship builds

Azamara - Its owners dumping it at a loss (impairment charge) put minimal money into refurbishment over the past few years with no new ship builds.

Wow! I don’t get it. If Azamara was a stand alone company with 20 year old ships with little support from its owners who really don’t care about the future of the company, and it was bought by RCL or Carnival, the opinions would be very different. Most people would be relieved saying how the expertise of the new owners with the huge amounts of available Capital to inject (maybe new ships) is great news. I remember some people saying last spring how there was no way RCL would part with such a profitable and great cruise line. Well they did. Must not have been as profitable and great as they thought.

some people will only see the positive because any other perspective does not make them feel good.

I love Azamara and hope one day to be their customer again. It was never going to happen under RCL ownership because you only get to burn me once. I hope the new owners can make it better. Buying another 20 year old sister ship is not what gives me hope. If Pacific Princess does not go to Azamara then this is a positive sign. Waiting to hear future plans on new builds will give me hope. That’s serious investment and a positive move.

if indeed Sycamore bought Azamara at a discount, it may want to take the savings on the purchase price and invest it into a fund that spends the time and money reaching out to loyal customers who have left Azamara while I’ll treated by RCL.

RCL treated many loyal customers very badly and I have always stated that this was the most glaring sign that RCL had no long term interest in the Azamara brand. Saying this many months ago got me huge pushback from the Fanboys. 
 

Just now, ECCruise said:

I am not complaining.  Very happy with our experience on R-class ships.  Spent over 50 days on them (O and Az) between January and March of 2020.  And have about 75 days booked on them going forward.

 

Besides you are proposing a square hole, round peg solution:  They need to have new builds.  But they can't have new builds for years.  

You may not be complaining, however many others have. Everyone has their own level of acceptance in regards to what is acceptable and what is “wow”. Azamara has no Wow like new ships have. As time goes on, this will affect more and more it’s offering and they cannot sustain asking premium fares on aging ships. Fares go down and thus the quality of the offering. The shrimps will get smaller and they will be in the shell. They won’t change out the cheap shower curtains as often and things start to smell.

One thing the new owner will not have is the benefit of existing Royal Caribbean and Celebrity customers moving up the food chain. How is it that this new owner actually believes that it can do better? Take the Azamara experience on new ships and you have a chance of success. This will not be easy.

Just now, ECCruise said:

They only bought the line 48 hours ago. Do you have any idea how long it takes to develop and commit to a new build, with shipyards tied up literally for many years with projects in process?  Maybe they will wait a couple days to announce a new build. 😉

Maybe, but by then the existing ships will all be a couple of years older and we will be tired of complaining of their old ships being that more ancient. By the time a new ship is launched these existing ships may be older than many of those being scraped today.

14 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Adding Pursuit moved them forward a great deal.  New itineraries.  Newfound pax.  Wider acceptance.

Every one of the "20 year old" R class ships is transporting satisfied pax around the world on Oceania and Azamara.  How can adding a potential 4th ship in a matter of months not be moving forward?  A new build would take half a decade from inception to fruition. 

A new build would take a long time and thus show a commitment to bettering the experience and brand. A long term investment of new ships as opposed to a short term play “same old - same old”. Adding Pursuit was not a long term investment strategy by RCL bettering the brand. As it turns out, RCL was not interested in investing as much in Azamara as with its other 3 brands and the sale of Azamara is proof of that lack of long term investment. The new owner is doing the same if it buys its 4th. The play might be buy cheap, build revenues by adding 4th used ship, cut expenses, not invest, make profitable, sell and move on. In spite of all we want to happen, the reality may end up being disappointing. Adding an old 4th ship is not a good sign.

20 hours ago, excitedofharpenden said:

You having a dig at me again?  Once more, not what I'd expect from a host.  

 

Phil 

 

 

Perhaps the Host is making public in a creative “tongue in the cheek”  way your continued Bullying of other people merely because they have to add facts or offer opinions based on personal experiences.

6 minutes ago, Skicruiser55 said:

Yesterday Princess announced the sail of the Pacific Princess to an unknown buyer and some were wondering/guessing if the Sycamore was the buyer of Pacific Princess.  I was just noting that the ship was on the move.

Ok thanks. Adding a 20 year old ship to its future fleet is not a sign of moving forward.

20 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:Pacific Princess is the only option for a quick and seamless [4 identical ships, easy to extend the marketing] expansion.  Good news if Sycamore/Azamara is the buyer.

Good news? How so?

We, as passengers on these ships love the size but increasingly criticize the old outdated inefficient assets. Last update took away a casino and added more staterooms. Higher density. We got new shower curtains. RCL across 3 other lines all got new ships. Azamara got pursuit. It’s main competition, Oceania, gets new ships. Azamara gets sold. Please explain why adding a 20 year old ship is positive?

3 hours ago, Skicruiser55 said:

I looked at the marine tracking website and Pacific Princess sailed from Civitavecchia to East Coast Sardinia yesterday.  

Curious on why the Pacific Princess in relation to Azamara is significant? I understand same old ships from the same bankrupt cruise line. Am I missing something?

We can now all agree this won't happen. I wonder if RCL will tweak Silversea to be more like the Azamara to attract those lost customers after selling it.

1 hour ago, partiamo said:

As I read the announcement in Cruise Industry News,

 

Royal Caribbean Group today announced it has entered into a definitive agreement to sell its Azamara brand to Sycamore Partners, a private equity firm specializing in consumer, retail and distribution investments, in an all-cash carve-out transaction for $201 million,

 

Sycamore Partners will acquire the entire Azamara brand, including its three-ship fleet and associated intellectual property.

 

So, 3 ships for $201 million equates to $67 million per ship.  These ships all date from 1999 to 2000, so not youngsters.  Ships like these headed for scrap probably are not worth more than $15 million.  So, it appears Sycamore is in this to improve the brand.  However, it appears they will need to set up a whole new back office.  If they hire the right people to run this line they could make a go of it.

 

As everyone says, we will see.

Also consider if Sycamore decides to keep the valuable assets  and discard the liabilities in a reorganization then all deposits and prepaid cruises are at risk. The 201 million price would include all debts owing which would be those funds paid by customers. Write those off and you get 67m per ship. If I had any money sitting with Azamara I would claim it from RCL now while they still have ownership and you can get it back. Too risky and you don’t want to hear ‘I told you so’