IrisF

Those are my circumstances as well. Scooter for long walks, cane for short walks, 20 stair steps are my limit. I know I'm gonna get wicked stares from fellow passengers when I "walk" into some venue that I have taken my scooter to and parked in an out-of-the-way spot but I guess I'll survive.:)

Hi Belle836, we can't worry about what others think. We KNOW what we can and cannot do. It may even vary from day to day. I usually park my scooter in the dining room where they tell me to and then walk with my cane to the table. When I can't do that anymore, I'll sit on the scooter to eat. I suppose I could do 20 stair steps - if my very life depended on it - but it would not be easy or comfortable for me to do so. When you get a "wicked stare" just give them a big smile and keep going! I'm usually so happy to be cruising that I don't even notice those stares.:D

Hi, I am able to walk some, but use a scooter for any distance at all. So, I really don't usually need a handicapped cabin.

I've cruised three times on Royal Caribbean, twice on Norwegian and once on Princess. On all of them the cabin doors were wide enough on a standard balcony cabin for my Go-Go Scooter to get into the cabin comfortably. All of them had excellent access to areas around the ship. I don't use the pool or the hot tubs, so I can't comment on their accessibility.

Norwegian standard balcony cabins are generally smaller than the other two lines I have cruised and the arrangement of furniture makes it impossible to turn the scooter around once inside the cabin. I'm very used to navigating with the scooter, so I would back into the room, but it made getting around in there very tight. The second time on a Norwegian ship (the Jewel) I did request a handicapped balcony cabin and it was much easier for us both to get around, including turning the scooter. I was able to park the scooter in the closet which provided easier access in the cabin itself.

On Royal Caribbean and Princess standard balcony cabins I had no trouble driving straight in and turning the scooter around. Also there was more room for my cabin mate to get around the scooter. At this point I would not request a HC cabin on either of those two lines.

I wish there was another catagory of cabin for "minimally" handicapped folks such as myself. It makes me uncomfortable to request a fully handicapped cabin when someone else may need it more than I do. For some of us just a little more space to turn around in and park the scooter or wheelchair would be sufficent.

I hope this is helpful and that it makes it easier for you to enjoy cruising as much as I do.

Iris

Ok, be warned. I'm about to flame Jim Gallops in a lengthy way for his comments and I am ready to be flamed in response. :eek: However, I hope the majority of people can understand and support my position.

 

I am outraged after reading Jim Gallups comments earlier in this thread. I feel like equality rights have been set back 20 years (i.e. Why don't people with disabilities just stop cruising and participating in life? Heck, why don't we just institutionalize "them" all so the rest of the world has no responsibility to interact with "them" and treat "them" with respect?) Ok, maybe I exaggerated with that institutionalization point: that was 60 years ago!

 

Most of Jim's statements relate back to the state of the country prior to the enactment of the ADA. And yes, businesses were upset that they bared responsibility for complying with new accessibility standards because it cost them money - particularly retrofiting buildings. But guess what? They got over it, and they learned a few things in the process including the following:<snip>...

 

Having stated the above, I cannot comprehend why anyone would want to keep barriers to accessibility. More important than the above reasons, however, we accommodate people because it is the right thing to do. We must respect the dignity and choices of people with disabilities. The issue is not about feeling sorry for people with disabilities and doing what you can for them. It is about dignity and respect and fulfilling your legal obligation to accommodate.

 

Finally, (be warned this is my personal issue, not a principled argument) I would like to know what cruise line you work for as I would not spend my money (and in all likelihood discourage my network of people from spending their money) on a line that either promotes or employs people with such an attitude.

 

Putting on the flame retardant suit now...:confused:

Beautifully said Loreo!!! I'm in total agreement.

IrisF

Sorry for the double post...IrisF

If you hadn't guessed already, I have worked on cruise ships for many years. My employer's name doesn't matter.

 

IrisF is a scooter user who realizes that it is not generally a good idea to take ship's shore excursions due to the difficulties she encounters. IrisF is also, like many handicapped people, determined to live as full a life as possible in spite of the difficulties that crop up. From what I see, I am not in the minority. Unfortunately she is in the minority. The great majority of scooter users on my ship demand that we accommodate them regardless of inconvenience to all the other passengers, causing dangerous situations for the operation of the ship - or the impossibility of accommodating them in a primitive country. If the difficulties were explained properly and honestly some people would choose not to leave the "safety" of their homes. Others would say, I'll do what I can and enjoy it!

 

And Iris, unfortunately we are now experimenting with automatic doors for our handicapped toilets. Guests often try to force them open, stripping the mechanism. Then it either will not close or will not open. It takes 2 or 3 crew to force it in case of emergency. Would you be willing to bet your life on the availibility of those 3 crew in a real emergency? On one of my cruises, many public toilets were equipped with automatic doors, in 17 days, I only ever saw one that needed maintenance and I reported that one to the crew. It simply wouldn't work on automatic, but the door could be opened manually with not too much extra effort.

 

... Since the demand for this type of transport is quite limited, (as Queenie2 said, there will be more of us in the future) most tour operators in third world countries are reluctant to spend the large amounts of money required to furnish this sort of thing to such a small market. So, then, if there were more handicapped on the ships to use the extra services, they would spend the money? The cruise lines have very little leverage to force them to provide these things.If the cruise lines worked together, they would have the leverage. However, I suspect there is an "insurance" issue here that we are not yet talking about. Just like you , we are only guests in someone else's country. They do not operate by our rules. If they want you to keep coming back and bringing them $'s they would make a few changes if the cruise lines asked them to.

 

The cruise lines do have larger cabins where wheel chairs and scooters can be accommodated. They are called Suites. Not all suites have wider entry doors however... if all the cabin doors were wider there would be very little to complain about for a lot of scooter/wheelchair folks.

 

leoandhugh,

Excellent point. I absolutely agree with your statement that anyone trying to take a scooter ashore in a non-ADA compliant country "is either ignorant of conditions or pushing their luck". IrisF refuses to be called ignorant of the conditions. Having a willing attitude is important. Do you see the glass as half full or half empty? Can I do EVERYTHING a fully able bodied person can do - no - can I still do alot - you bet! But every week of the year I have anywhere from 10 to 40 passengers trying to do exactly that. When we point out that a wheelchair will not do so well on Puerto Vallarta's cobblestone streets or in beach sand, or that a scooter will not be allowed on a zip line tour, we get screaming, shouting, threats of lawsuits, personal attacks, spitting, cursing, punching. It never ends. What are we to do? You could try offering one or two real excursions expressly for the handicapped and or the minimally handicapped in each port. If that doesn't fly, at least you will have tried to give this "small" minority a taste of the countries they are visiting. As things stand now, none of the excursions are really available to the minimally handicapped much less the fully handicapped. If we make it easier for even more wheelchairs and scooters to come aboard ships, will this problem improve? Unlikely. Only if attitudes change.

 

Last year in Hawaii, we had a blind couple sailing in a cabin. We provided every available handicapped device required by them. Then they insisted on taking a mountain climbing tour in Kona. .....Is that fair? Of course it isn't fair. And, if your company had been smart they would not have "caved in" to their demands re that excursion. How much more could it have cost the cruise line than what you say they spent anyway? There are times when it pays to say, "so sue me!" Had they been willing to foot the bill for the extra attendents, etc. they could have arranged for that as a private excursion. Surely you went above and beyond to make it possible for them - why? When I can't even talk you into having transportation from the port into the town.

 

Yesterday at the Captain's welcome reception, an elderly handicapped passenger lost control of her scooter and ran into 3 other passengers. We now have one broken foot and many scrapes and bruises. Who pays for this? Of course the scooter user should pay, not the cruise line. How is it the cruise line's fault? The cruise line. Who pays us? You do.

 

I remain wholeheartedly sympathetic to the plight of handicapped people. I will do anything possible to accommodate their special needs and ensure that they have a comfortable and enjoyable cruise with me. But we are talking about more than comfort. This is life and death. Are you willing to risk your own lives and the lives of others? This seems a bit overly dramatic to me. It seems like I am more at risk from some of the pax that drink too much than I am from the disabled.

IrisF

If you hadn't guessed already, I have worked on cruise ships for many years. My employer's name doesn't matter.

 

IrisF is a scooter user who realizes that it is not generally a good idea to take ship's shore excursions due to the difficulties she encounters. IrisF is also, like many handicapped people, determined to live as full a life as possible in spite of the difficulties that crop up. From what I see, I am not in the minority. Unfortunately she is in the minority. The great majority of scooter users on my ship demand that we accommodate them regardless of inconvenience to all the other passengers, causing dangerous situations for the operation of the ship - or the impossibility of accommodating them in a primitive country. If the difficulties were explained properly and honestly some people would choose not to leave the "safety" of their homes. Others would say, I'll do what I can and enjoy it!

 

And Iris, unfortunately we are now experimenting with automatic doors for our handicapped toilets. Guests often try to force them open, stripping the mechanism. Then it either will not close or will not open. It takes 2 or 3 crew to force it in case of emergency. Would you be willing to bet your life on the availibility of those 3 crew in a real emergency? On one of my cruises, many public toilets were equipped with automatic doors, in 17 days, I only ever saw one that needed maintenance and I reported that one to the crew. It simply wouldn't work on automatic, but the door could be opened manually with not too much extra effort.

 

... Since the demand for this type of transport is quite limited, (as Queenie2 said, there will be more of us in the future) most tour operators in third world countries are reluctant to spend the large amounts of money required to furnish this sort of thing to such a small market. So, then, if there were more handicapped on the ships to use the extra services, they would spend the money? The cruise lines have very little leverage to force them to provide these things.If the cruise lines worked together, they would have the leverage. However, I suspect there is an "insurance" issue here that we are not yet talking about. Just like you , we are only guests in someone else's country. They do not operate by our rules. If they want you to keep coming back and bringing them $'s they would make a few changes if the cruise lines asked them to.

 

The cruise lines do have larger cabins where wheel chairs and scooters can be accommodated. They are called Suites. Not all suites have wider entry doors however... if all the cabin doors were wider there would be very little to complain about for a lot of scooter/wheelchair folks.

 

leoandhugh,

Excellent point. I absolutely agree with your statement that anyone trying to take a scooter ashore in a non-ADA compliant country "is either ignorant of conditions or pushing their luck". IrisF refuses to be called ignorant of the conditions. Having a willing attitude is important. Do you see the glass as half full or half empty? Can I do EVERYTHING a fully able bodied person can do - no - can I still do alot - you bet! But every week of the year I have anywhere from 10 to 40 passengers trying to do exactly that. When we point out that a wheelchair will not do so well on Puerto Vallarta's cobblestone streets or in beach sand, or that a scooter will not be allowed on a zip line tour, we get screaming, shouting, threats of lawsuits, personal attacks, spitting, cursing, punching. It never ends. What are we to do? You could try offering one or two real excursions expressly for the handicapped in each port. If that doesn't fly, at least you will have tried to give this "small" minority a taste of the countries they are visiting. As things stand now, none of the excursions are really available to the handicapped. If we make it easier for even more wheelchairs and scooters to come aboard ships, will this problem improve? Unlikely. Only if attitudes change.

 

Last year in Hawaii, we had a blind couple sailing in a cabin. We provided every available handicapped device required by them. Then they insisted on taking a mountain climbing tour in Kona. .....Is that fair? Of course it isn't fair. And, if your company had been smart they would not have "caved in" to their demands re that excursion. How much more could it have cost the cruise line than what you say they spent anyway? There are times when it pays to say, "so sue me!" Had they been willing to foot the bill for the extra attendents, etc. they could have arranged for that as a private excursion. Surely you went above and beyond to make it possible for them - why? When I can't even talk you into having transportation from the port into the town.

 

Yesterday at the Captain's welcome reception, an elderly handicapped passenger lost control of her scooter and ran into 3 other passengers. We now have one broken foot and many scrapes and bruises. Who pays for this? Of course the scooter user should pay, not the cruise line. How is it the cruise line's fault? The cruise line. Who pays us? You do.

 

I remain wholeheartedly sympathetic to the plight of handicapped people. I will do anything possible to accommodate their special needs and ensure that they have a comfortable and enjoyable cruise with me. But we are talking about more than comfort. This is life and death. Are you willing to risk your own lives and the lives of others? This seems a bit overly dramatic to me. It seems like I am more at risk from some of the pax that drink too much than I am from the disabled.

IrisF

Well Jim Gallup, let me just add my two cents worth here.

I am a scooter user and have found that it is not a good idea to sign up for most ship's excursions. The Excursion Desk employees rarely know anything about what is offered beyond what they read that is in my cruise documents. Having done ship's tours a few times, and selecting carefully the least "arduous" choices, I have found as many as 50 stairs to climb, very steep hills, wonderful bus drivers who where willing to go the extra mile and people who thought I shouldn't be there at all.

Most ports on the islands I have been to and stops in Mexico, Costa Rica, etc have been at least partially accessible to me if I was willing to "go it on my own". So, that is what my DH and I usually do. The ships don't even provide accessible transportation into the nearest town - or, if they do it is VERY rare. We have learned to seek out the transporters on our own and are ALWAYS successful.

I must say that the ship's crew have always been most helpful when it comes to assisting me on or off the ship where assistance has been necessary. On those cruise lines that "allow it" they have also been very helpful with the tenders.

I have never seen an "automatic" door that could not be opened manually. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

What more would I like the cruise lines to do?

1.Make transportation from the port into the nearest town available to everyone. If we can find willing transporters on our own then you know they are available.

2.Have some cabins that are accessible to wheelchair and scooter users that do not need a fully accessible cabin. i.e. they can walk enough to use a standard cabin and bathroom, but need wider doors and turnaround room in the cabin.

3.Restrict the issuance of the few handicapped cabins that are available to those that really need them. If that requires a doctor's prescription, so be it.

4.And make accessible cabins and/or doors available in all categories.

What would I like you personally to do? Try using a scooter for your primary transportation for three or four days, then come back here and post again. You may have a different attitude.

I will get off my soap box now,

IrisF

sologrip was talking about cabin access (to the front door) , not restroom access (which most land facilities also have -- and you have the option to use it or not).

 

There are a few cruise ships which have auto doors on a few of their accessible rooms. I think it was kind of an experiment that didn’t work out (JMO -- they didn't build any more of them for some reason, and don't even advertise that they have them). It's great that they have this, but again it's not even required in land-based facilities (which the new guidelines will be based on). Point is, wide doors are required in all entry doors to guest rooms in land-based facilities. The PVAAC decided *not* to include this in the cruise ship guidelines (on newly built ships), so only the accessible rooms will have wide doorways.

 

Bad move IMHO.

 

Candy

Hi Candy,

I agree it is a bad move. I use a very small scooter and it just barely fits through a standard door. Being a very determined type person, I have even backed it into some cabins since they were too tiny to turn the scooter around in and it seemed easier to back into the room than to back out of it. An accessible room is not required, usually, because I can manage without it, but when the needed scooter becomes an obstacle to your cabin partner it is very tiresome.

It would be great if the industry would make some cabins semi-accessible for those with limited mobility that don't need a fully accessible cabin.

I have never seen an automatic door to a land based restroom, so was really impressed with the ones on the NCL Spirit.

IrisF

I don't know, the public restrooms on the Norwegian Spirit had push button automatic doors. Nice and wide. They were a bit slow to open and close, but they really worked great. I did notice though that they needed maintenance pretty often. Maybe people couldn't wait for them to open and close and tried to force them? Anyway, they were a pleasure to use.

Hi,

Many thanks to Kathy and Walt for this wonderful information. I know it will be very useful.

IrisF