NHBob

NHBob mentioned “whipped off her skirt” as an example of, for Crystal, wild excitement.

 

 

If you had bothered to check your facts, Dancer Bob, you would know that:

• This wasn't posted by me, but by somebody else.
  
• It had nothing to do with Crystal, as it was describing a performance ashore in Bournemouth, England.
  

So please don't put words in my mouth to support your opinions about something you haven't experienced.

 

Bob

The best dancing you will find anywhere is on Costa....

NHBob tried to talk me into going on Crystal; after some research, I decided it is completely unsuitable for serious dancers, not to mention outrageously expensive.

 

Well, since I've never cruised with Costa, I won't turn this into a Crystal vs. Costa debate. If Costa meets DancerBob's needs, I certainly wouldn't and didn't intend to try to talk him into going elsewhere.

 

On the other hand, perhaps because I've been cruising for 25 years but only dancing for six, dancing is just one aspect of the total cruise experience I continue to enjoy on Crystal after 14 cruises with them.

 

I could, if I let myself, get upset with terms like "completely unsuitable for serious dancers" and "outrageously expensive" but will let it pass. After all, some might consider a Mercedes to be outrageously expensive, since a VW will get you where you're going just as efficiently!

 

One point on which I do agree with DancerBob: dancers at all levels, from beginner to expert, should avoid HAL like the plague. It's almost as if in the mid 90's they initiated a deliberate effort to discourage dancers. But that's a discussion best left to another time and place.

 

Bob

If anyone knows any good single deals for late August, please post....

 

Pardon me if this has been posted previously, but in the luxury market, Regent regularly posts a list of "reduced" single supplements on their website. Current list, all at 50% supplement can be found at http://www.rssc.com/specials/details.aspx?SpecialId=f2bfecfe-a9f3-4d5b-a2b7-f3f2aa6984cd The list includes five cruises in August.

 

This is still pretty high compared to Crystal's standard 25% to 30%, but better than Regent's standard 75% to 100%

See http://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=1127 for recent article on this very subject.

 

I personally cruise almost entirely on Crystal these days, and both ships have excellent dance floors and live music There are gentleman hosts on every cruise to dance with the solo ladies. Crystal has recently added ballroom theme content, usually in conjunction with big band theme. In 2010 and 2011 this will be on Serenity's Lisbon-Miami transatlantic in December - band will be Glenn Miller in 2010..

 

There is a dance team on every Crystal cruise and they all are excellent performers and instructors. A second team is added for the ballroom theme cruises. For more information on Crystal see thread Dancing at Sea on Crystal on the Crystal Boards, http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1061757&page=1, and Crystal's website.

 

Quite a few other lines, including Celebrity, have dropped gentleman hosts, and HAL now only has them on a few long cruises. HAL used to do several big band cruises per year, but dropped them a couple of years ago. My '08 TA on Zuiderdam was one of the last.

 

The best dance floors at sea are generally agreed to be the Queen's Rooms on Cunard, which are true ballrooms. I haven't sailed with Cunard recently, but have seen some complaints about orchestras not maintaining strict tempo. As good as Cunard's dance floors are, I probably won't sail with them again - ships are too big and the worst service I ever had on a ship was on QM2 when she was new. They are also very singles unfriendly, with 75 to 100% single supplements vs. Crystal's 25 to 30%. As the old Sophi Tucker song said, "Never Let The Same Dog Bite You Twice." There is a dance thread on the Cunard boards.

 

My only other ballroom experience was on MSC Lirica - they feature the Les DeMerle big band quite often, but at least on Lirica the dance floors are very small. I've heard, however, that the newer ships are better. At least on Lirica, the entertainment staff members - I think they call them animators or some such nonsense - showed up at the big band dance sessions but didn't have a hint about ballroom dancing; that didn't keep them off the floors where they flailed about doing what passes as dancing these days completely eliminating any possibility of a proper line of dance or common dance floor etiquette

 

Unfortunately, the bigger ships that HAL builds, the smaller the dance floors seem to be. Floors on the Vista Class ships' Ocean Bars, a popular spot for before-dinner dancing, are really crowded with more than 6 or 8 couples - this on ships with 1,700 passengers.

Good suggestions, dblonde. Think I'll print it out to use next time I'm showing some out-of-town visitors around Boston.

 

One small point that can be confusing to out-of-towners: Although the Silver Line is identified by color, as are all Boston subway lines, it's not actually a train, but large articulated buses, silver in color, that run on streets and in a few tunnels.

 

The various posts about the "T" may sound a little confusing, but it is really one of the easiest US subway systems to find your way around.

 

Bob

 

...Union Oyster House (around the corner from Quincy Market) has the best clam chowdah and is the oldest restaurant in the country!

 

 

Right! However, it is a very popular lunch spot for office workers in the area (Government Center), so plan on a late lunch if you're there on a working day.

 

Regarding the "T", in addition to the $2 normal fares, they also offer several "Charlie Cards" including one, which I assume still exists, that allows unlimited rides all day. Cards are available from vending machines at subway stations. Check the MBTA website for more information on routes, schedules and fares.

 

A couple of years ago I offered to buy a drink for the first person to tell me why they are called "Charlie Cards". Somebody answered within minutes, but I still owe him the drink as our paths haven't crossed on a cruise. Not repeating the offer - too many New Englanders know the answer.

 

If you only have a day in Boston, I think the Duck tours and the Freedom Trail offer the best opportunity to see as much as possible.

I hadn't looked at the HAL boards recently, so was surprised to see that this thread is still alive and well a year and over 1600 posts since introduction of AYWD. It appears that a lot of people are still enduring wait listing for traditional dining.

 

In my review of my March '08 transatlantic on Zuiderdam I commented that I wouldn't be cruising on HAL again until they were willing to confirm my dining choice at time of booking, always at least six months out. Guess I'll have to wait a while longer, although I doubt that HAL/Carnival management is losing any sleep over this!

Boy, this thread has taken on a life of its own. Hadn't looked at it lately, but did want to add a note about my observations on Zuiderdam's introduction of AYWD on the March TA.

 

As regular readers of this post and the roll call thread may recall, I had a major battle with HAL to get confirmation of traditional dining. However, once on board I didn't notice any problems. It certainly had no effect on my upper level service, and I never saw any lines at the lower level open seating entrance.

 

People I met who had selected open seating were very pleased with it and the flexibility it offered. However, the one or two people I met who had been forced to accept open dining because traditional was full were not happy campers.

 

No doubt there were also some passengers who had wanted but been unable to get traditional , and then discovered that they liked the open seating. So, I continue to feel that the problem is not with the concept, but HAL's unwillingness or inability to confirm dining choice at the time or booking or shortly thereafter.

From what we're being told, if you have them put you on the waiting list for Traditional, the chances are GREAT you'll get it. It would appear that HAL is just not assigning people to Traditional until they have full numbers on how the distribution of passengers between AYWD and Traditional will be on a cruise-by-cruise basis.

 

So ... have them put you on the Traditional waiting list.

 

Or you can try what I did - write a polite but firm letter to HAL's Executive VP for guest relations expressing your reluctance to board a cruise if there is any chance you will be forced to accept open seating. Worked form me - within 10 days I received both e-mail and phone call confirming traditional dining. Write to:

 

Mr. Richard D. Meadows, CTC

Executive Vice President

Marketing, Sales and Guest Programs

Holland America Line

P.O. Box 34985

Seattle, WA 98124

 

 

Of course this shouldn't be necessary, but perhaps if senior manaement gets enough of this tyhpe of letter they will put their house in order regarding dining room assisnments.

There is NO REASON why it has to be either/or. Bob, Ruth, Heather, SharonN, myself, etc., ... our desire is a simple one. We HAL to confirm that we will be able to Dine "As We Wish," with Traditional, not Open, Seating. Our desire for HAL to confirm this does NOT equate to a desire for AYWD to be dropped -- nor does it entail a pitting of one Dining System against the other. It is simply a REASONABLE expectation that we should be able to be confirmed in the KIND of dining we wish. PERIOD. And, it is neither logical nor charitable for anyone to conclude, and assign to those of us who desire such confirmation, that we want there to be no such option for others. So, people, please stop building Straw Men and assigning others to them ... that Tender won't float here.

 

Amen!

 

Bob

[quote name='terrydtx'] [B]Bob you and Ruth would be very happy if HAL DROPPED THE AYWD option which in fact means you are opposed to the choice of the two options[/B]. I believe that your postings in this forum prove that point.[/quote]

And I said or even implied this where? This is the most convoluted reasoning I have seen in a long time!

Bob

[quote name='Dena'][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]It [/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Times New Roman]How anyone could argue that more choices are a bad thing for women is mind-boggling. :confused: But then again, there are those who would deny us the simple freedom of choosing when and where to dine.:( [/FONT][/quote]

I had pretty much stopped posting on this thread because the same things are now being said over and over, but had to respond to this.

Dena, just who are those who would deny you the simple freedom of choosing when and where to dine? The original concern in this thread was not that dining choices were being offered, but that HAL would make sufficient dining room space available to accommodate both traditional and open seating dining. [B]To date HAL has not provided any such assurance, as far as I know.[/B]

To the contrary, if you will take the trouble to check various sailings on HAL's website you will find many instances where only open seating is shown as available, everything else wait listed. Furthermore, clicking on the "wait listed" items yields a notice to the effect that only requests are being taken at this time, and table assignments will be provided on board ths ship.

As RuthC stated so concisely early in this thread, that is not As You Wish Dining.

Dena, I couldn't care less where and when you eat, but I do care about my dining room assignments. In my particular case, it took a letter to HAL senior management to get confirmation of traditional dining for my next cruise - this shouldn't be necessary and I certainly will book another HAL cruise only when they are able and willing to commit to my preferred type of dining at time of booking.

A friend of mine who is an editor for a major travel industry magazine that is privy to a lot of cruise line marketing and research told me that the number 1 criticism of cruise passengers is the traditional “cattle call” dining. The number 2 criticism is formal wear requirements especially on resort destination cruises like the Caribbean. She also said that these are the 2 primary reasons potential new customers have not ever taken a cruise. NCL has been leading the industry in attracting first time cruisers primarily because of their free style cruise marketing

 

Thught I was having deja vu, but see that this is a repetition of terrydtx's August 23 post. Curious as to reason - think we didn't get it the first time, or wanted to get some more reaction to the "cattle call" reference?

 

I think we get it: your group likes freestyle, mine doesn't

 

Same goes for formal wear. My grown kids, and their pre-teen children, loved the formal atmosphere on QE2 and Amsterdam. And believe me, my son, daughter and son-in-law all have jobs requiring proper workplace attire 5 days a week.

 

 

.

 

 

 

.

 

I don't know ... but sometimes I think the folks standing there in line five to ten minutes before the doors are even scheduled to open are afraid the ship will run out of food?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

Reminds me of a question my son asked on Amsterdam a few years ago: "Have these people been locked up somewhere on board on bread and water?"

 

Also reminds me of remark by a fellow HAl passenger as a mob decended on the Dutch High Tea: "Looks like the feeding frenzy in the shark tank at the aquarium."

Just received both phone and e-mail messages from Gary Quantz in HAL's Guest Relations office confirming my requested main seating, assigned table, traditional dining on Zuiderdam's March 15h crossing. Messages also invite me to contact Guest Relations if I have any further questions. Quite a change from previous refusal to even talk to me directly because I booked through TA.

 

Of course there's no way to know it this is a result of my letter or would have happpened anyway, so I guess I'll flatter myself by assuming the former!

 

Good luck to other traditional diners still on wait lists, as well as open seating fans - hope all of you get your preferences eventually.

For the seasoned HAL cruisers that have stated on this forum they will take their business elsewhere, I ask where? .... That leaves maybe Costa and a couple of other smaller lines, even the most of the super premium lines have some form of flexible dining hours.

 

 

It also leaves Crystal, Fred. Olsen, Saga, and Cunard! I doubt it will work for the Britannia Dining Room on QM2 without complete redesign of the room - in my limited experience open seating didn't work at all well for breakfast and lunch. Something like HAL's AYWD might work on Queen Victoria, since the upper and lower levels of Britannia Dining Room appear to to completely separate. Interested to see that according to brochure deck plans, Victoria's Britannia DR appears to offer only tables for four - none larger, and none for two. Wonder how that will work!

 

What it all comes down to that I guess all us posters on this thread have to agree to disagree - nothing anybody can say will convince me that open seating is good for me, and I'm sure nothing I could say will convince the open seating fans otherwise!

I don't think waitlisting is telling us anything about passenger preferences. It's smoke and mirrors.

 

The missing link is, I think " groups" and "group sales". Seating is being suspended in favor of potential groups and group cabin sales. We have been told this, on this board, by travel agents and group/ charter organizers. We also know that HAL holds back tables to accommodate those who will book higher end cabins.

 

Probably right. So, I guess current HAL dining scheme should be re-named "AHAWAAGASO" - "as Holland America wishes after accomodating groups and suite occupants."

Received a card today from the Office of the President, HAL, in response to my letter of August 13th regarding traditional dining availability on Zuiderdam March '08 TA. Card reads, in part:

 

"Please be assured that we respond to all inquiries..... In order to give you the highest level of service, it is usually necessary to thoroughly research and investigate your concerns prior to responding, and we appreciate your patience with our process... You will be hearing from us soon."

 

Feeling charitable today, so will assume they are really working on the problem and not just stalling.

 

Paul, thanks for SB info. I had tried for '08 crossing, but was too late. Didn't realize they were already accepting '09 bookings, but will check to see if TA is still available.

It's a "dammed" shame that the QE2 is going out of service. That is one ship that has many, many single cabins. I was shocked that they didn't include any on the QM2 and that none are planned for the Queen Victoria. I never understood this. I can't see why EVERY cruise line can't have a small number of single cabins ... cabins that were once larger insides and outsides that were literally cut in half to make two cabins. Of course the cabins would be no more than 100 square feet ... but since only one person would be occupying them, that honestly wouldn't be too bad. The cabin could have a single bed, small dresser and reduced closet space ... and that should work since only one person would be occupying the cabin. I could even deal with it if the single cabins had shared bathrooms (with another single cabin) ... set up some way where when you locked your side of the door, both sides automatically locked.

 

I can't believe that ships like the QE2 could have loads of single cabins, yet other cruise lines feel they are unprofitable and thus don't have any on their ships. Doesn't make sense. Surely SOME singles sail on just about every cruise line. Why can't at least a few single cabins be offered to them? Surely there must be some extra small cabins that couples scream when they are relegated to? Surely there must be some cabins in locations where some of the floor space is compromised due to ship structure or whatever ... cabins that would be great for a single person who wouldn't have a beef with the reduced floor space.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

Good points Rita, but unfortunately, as unfair as lack of single cabins seems to us solos, it is pretty much a matter of economics, both in construction and operation.

 

To reduce construction costs Carnival Corporation, and I assume others, use a "cookie cutter approach", with several brands on the same platform, just like GM and others do in the automobile industry. Although the newer Carnival, HAL, Costa, Princess and even Queen Victoria look quite different, they are basically pretty much the same, the differences being superficial. Standardized design facilitates prefabrication of standard cabins on shore, perhaps even in a different shipyard, and then simply lifting them into place and connecting utilities (that's a bit over-simplified, but pretty much the case).

 

On a ship, just as in your house, bathrooms are one of the most expensive areas, and the bathroom costs about the same for a 100 sq.ft. single as for a large double. This could be mitigated by shared baths for singles, but I doubt that this would be widely accepted.

 

From an operational standpoint, cost of cabin staff, maintenance, etc. is probably almost as much for a single cabin as for a double, with only one person per cabin instead of two buying everything from drinks to shore excursions.

 

No matter what some may feel about Carnival Corporation, they are very well managed and no doubt they look very hard at economics and the bottom line when making design decisions for new builds.

 

None of this makes things better for us singles, and many of us regret the departure of QE2. Early publicity for QM2 mentioned single cabins, but as we know, that never came to pass. I guess we just have to live with it or look for the few ships still offering singles or reasonable single supplements.

 

The next new-to-me line I'll probably try will be Fred Olsen, as I believe all of their ships have single cabins, and they are now starting to market in North America. And, perhaps one of these days I'll have an opportunity to try the former Vistafjord/Caronia (my Cunard favorite) and Sagafjord, both with Saga now - I believe Saga retained the single cabins when they bought the ships from Cunard and refit them as Saga Rose and Saga Ruby. (A Swedish friend commented that Saga Ruby sounds like the name of somebody you would find in a Swedish brothel).

Bob,

 

Crystal cruises are much more expensive to start with, so even with single supplements of 125% - 130%, they end up being more than HAL.

 

Roz

 

Yes but, at least to me, it's worth it!

 

Bob

Rita,

 

Celebrity and RCI charge solos 200% as a matter of course, unless you stumble across a last minute deal, but I have to plan cruises a minimum of 6 months in advance due to work constraints.

 

I don't relish the thought of wasting precious cruise time trying to arrange dining times with other passengers.

 

Roz

 

And both Cunard and Seabourn also charge 200% for single occupancy. Seabourn advertises guaranteed single rates, subject to availability, but I've yet to find it available. Too bad, as I understand that Seabourn, although open seating, accommodates singles very well, often seating them at officers' tables. I have no problem with open seating with a small group, having experienced it with groups of 50 to 150 fellow passengers on Star Clipper, river boats and several land tours in Australia and New Zealand. Not a problem, as you get to know everyody very quickly. However I hate to think of it with 1900 passengers on board.

 

One of Crystal's strong points is single supplements of 25 to 30 percent except in the high-priced suites. Their biggest disadvantage is that with only two ships, choices of itineraries are quite limited.

 

Forgot to mention in earlier post is that an attractive feature of the new Balmoral is that Olsen has converted quite a few cabins, both inside and outside, to single occupancy.

Bob--

 

I hope that if you do cancel and switch to Fred Olsen or Crystal, that you write a letter to Stein Kruse explaining why you did so.

 

I doubt that they'll enjoy hearing about losing your single supplement due to their AYW foolishness, and your travel dollars to a non CCL company!

 

I certainly will! I copied Mr. Cruise on my previous letter to VP Richard Meadows; toyed with idea of also copying Howard Frank, Carnival Corp. CEO, but thought I'd hold off to see if HAL came through. Copies of any future letters will definitely go to Mr. Frank. Having worked for a couple of large corporations myself, I know how senior management loves receiving complaints from clients!

 

As you can see from my signature I've cruised with Crystal 5 times so far, with 2 more booked for this winter. They are really special, but quite a bit more expensive than HAL. This is partially mitigated by a lower single supplement in my case and more liberal credits for past pasengers and on-board bookings. They are also a lot more formal than HAL, which I like.

 

No experience with Fred Olsen, but my British friends say it is great, as do a lot of CC'rs on the Olsen boards. The brochures and website info I've seen so far on Balmoral look very impressive. Not only are they doing a complete refit of the former Norwegian Crown, but also stretching her by about 30 meters, so she'll end up with a capacity of around 1300, roughly the size of HAL's pre-Vista ships and only a little larger than Crystal Serenity. Balmoral will be doing two "Music of Your Life" Caribbean cruises in March with Buddy Morrow and Tommy Dorsey Seven, so I can still have some good music even if I cancel Zuiderdam big band crossing.

 

Will continue to post any new developments.

It's only single folks who can get royally screwed with this concept ... they are gonna have to arrange their own dining buddies or else they will wind up getting shoved "wherever" ... with other groups who may not be too pleased to have an outsider joining their table. Or, those poor singles will simply be placed at tables for two ... and dine alone every night. But couples and groups or families traveling together will be fine.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

I'm one of those single folks, booked on Zuiderdam's first AYWD voyage, the March '08 FLL-Rome crossing, so yes, let's all keep putting pressure on HAL. So far, nothing I and a lot of others, plus my TA have done has had any evident effect. I have written directly to HAL's Executive VP for Guest Relations, but there hasn't been time for a response yet. Let's face it - with 12 ships in service HAL probably has 14 to 15 thousand people on board at any one time, so those of us protesting AYWD dining are a rather small minority in their eyes!

 

In my case, I have a simple solution - if I can't be assured traditional dining before final payment is due, I'll simply cancel and book cruises on Crystal and perhaps Fred. Olsen's new ABalmoral (former Norwegian Crown). I wonder if HAL cares.

 

I realize, however, that this may not work for somebody with a specific destination in mind, such as Alaska.

 

Good luck pattycat1, and keep us informed on the sticky on this subject.

 

Bob

I doubt that that is the case, though it is not unprecedented. There are several prominent cases where the best strategy for a business would be to deliberately seek to switch from one customer base to a completely different customer base.

 

You are right, of course, and I think we have already seen an example of this with sister company Cunard. This became evident to a lot of us loyal Cunarders when Cunard did not replace Caronia with a similar size ship, instead concentrating on the much larger QM2 and the soon-to-be- launched Queen Victoria. Of course they do attempt to satisfy both the mass market and the luxury demand, but the latter applies only to the very expensive grill class cabins. Berlitz even rates the different restaurant categories as if they were separate ships.

 

I accused Carnival/Cunard of abandoning those of us who loved the old Cunard, but of course they denied it. A review of the Cunard message boards appears to indicate that the QM2 devotees are an almost entirely different group from the long-time QE2 passengers. With the QE2 being replaced by Victoria in '09, it will be interesting to see how many QE2 old timers move to Victoria or QM2.

 

So, is HAL also willing to sacrifice the business of their traditional passengers to attract a new generation of NCL-type freestyle cruisers? I think so, but hope I am wrong.

Well, darn it! I booked the first AYW cruise on Oosterdam in January and was told that there was no room in the traditional dining plan for me! :mad: I'm on the waitlist. Hopefully they're putting everyone on the wait list until things shake out.

Bel

 

Bel, I sympathise, as I have exactly the same situation with my booking on Zuiderdam's transatlantic in March. We seem to be getting some mixed signals from HAL. On one hand, a few posts in this thread indicate that from poster's experience, HAL appears to be adjusting open/traditional dining space to meet demand. On the other hand, HAL is "encouraging" my TA to recommend open seating to her clients. In my case, ain't gonna happen. No way I'm risking making final payment and then, upon boarding, learn that I am relegated to open seating.

 

I've just about made up my mind to cancel if I can't get assurance of traditional dining, and try Fred. Olsen's "new" Balmoral - former Norwegian Crown, stretched and completely re-fit.

 

Good luck! Hope you'll post any developments.