cjwolfson

50 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

Well that's good news! Are you telling us confidential information or is there a news source for this? Agency report? I looked at a violation tracker, but don't see this one listed: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/norwegian-cruise-line.

 

Thanks, I'd love to read the more in-depth (boring) details. 

The site you're referencing will not have this. It isn't confidential, but you will need to FOIA request it. FTC doesn't always disclose violations unless they are FOIA requested. I can work you through that if you would like. 

On 2/9/2023 at 12:32 PM, tcrandal said:

 

Call me crazy, but I think you're overstating the advantage you have from "being on the inside" of government, you're a cog in a very complex system. Complaints are great, there are things that NCL should really be held accountable to that from recent posts I'm seeing are code violations in relation to food and egress pathways. 

 

But by golly, if you have the entire arsenal of the US government backing your cause, then bless your heart!

Hello everybody, I wanted to give everyone an update to my FTC complaint I filed against NCL. As I mentioned before, these things take time. I assured everyone that eventually it would get looked at. Indeed it was, and I am happy with the result.

NCL has agreed to settle this matter with the FTC and the NY AG office. They agree that their practices were indeed "not up to standard". They did not legally say they were at fault as per the settlement nor do they agree they were acting in deceptive behaviors. Of course they were, but they are never going to say they were. This is all typical legal jumbo when a company settles with the gov. The airlines do it all the time, and just write a check. NCL was fined 600,000 dollars as per the settlement and agreed to change their practices. As I mentioned before, no one can defeat the power of the federal government. It won't mean we (the consumer) see any money, but I can assure you NCL will be changing the way they do things. That was the whole point of complaint, and I am glad to see it ending up in the "people's" favor.

On 2/10/2023 at 3:06 PM, Bonobochick said:

 

I was on the Jan 8th cruise and booked it maybe 8 days before departure and it was being marketed as a cruise to DR when I bought it until at least right before sail date (I was logging in to check if my guarantee room had been assigned then for edocs). I never did get an email with not only NCL updating with the news about dropping DR for another sea day but also the change in Antigua port hours that ended up putting the kibosh on my NCL prepaid excursion. I found out on here going through roll call the like a few days later after booking that some people got an alert about DR port day being canceled despite it still being marketed as a cruise to DR. 

I wanted to update you. If it makes you feel better, I was alerted today that the FTC has opened a case against NCL for deception business practices. From my understanding it is an overall review, and not just this cruise (as in the Feb 1st cruise).  

12 hours ago, kitkat343 said:

On their January 8th Getaway cruise (and seriously is this ship cursed - there were problems with the sailing before ours also) they dropped the Dominican Republic and the morning in Antigua in December after final payment to help the environment.  They refused my request to cancel, but more significantly also continued marketing and selling the cruise to people as visiting the Dominican Republic after it was cancelled.  People who booked directly through NCL after the port had been dropped weren't told the itinerary had changed, and only found out on facebook.  

So you're saying they continued to market something AFTER they already canceled that trip? Unfortunately, I think they are in the right to refuse your request to cancel. However, your latter point smells like a pattern.

1 hour ago, sailorusvi said:

Lawsuits can be good for discovery purposes.   When did they know and why did they wait to make the announcement when they did?    

 

Should they have made the announcement sooner? Not sure the answer.

 

The delay might have been they knew Bermuda was out, but not know where the alternative was until days/hours later.  Telling a 4000+ people they aren't sure where they will end up might be worse than waiting to make the announcement until they had the revised alternative lined up.

 

The situation sucks, but waiting until you had all the answers sometimes is the better course of action.  

 

All speculation.  They could be a-holes and decide to wait till the last minute so people "couldn't" cancel.  Discover could provide some answers, but not necessarily ones people would agree on.

 

No use on the lawsuit. As I mentioned lawsuits go no where and cost a lot of money. I personally won't be forking up that type of money for any type of discovery. Saying that government complaints can do discovery for you without paying a dime (well you paid through your tax dollars). Companies also usually comply with government requests vs discovery requests (unless it is court ordered which can take years). They know very well what can happen without complying...

9 minutes ago, tcrandal said:

 

Call me crazy, but I think you're overstating the advantage you have from "being on the inside" of government, you're a cog in a very complex system. Complaints are great, there are things that NCL should really be held accountable to that from recent posts I'm seeing are code violations in relation to food and egress pathways. 

 

But by golly, if you have the entire arsenal of the US government backing your cause, then bless your heart!

Again nothing to do with the advantage. You're exactly right about the cog in the system. That is why it is important to know WHO you need to actually go to. You can wait months for complaints to the wrong party (only for them 6 months later saying, you went to the wrong agency or not responding at all). That is why having conversations internally within a "very complex system" can be important. You can figure out exactly where to go, and how to do it. I still haven't figured it out, but getting there.

Just now, tcrandal said:

 

I'm neither a stock holder nor a die hard NCL fan, as I cruise with many different companies for a variety of different reasons. I understand being disappointed, what I guess I'm not clear on is what you believe you would be entitled to if for some reason a decision was in your favor. 

 

If you're being honest with yourself ( and us), would you have decided not to go on the trip if you found out prior to the cruise that they weren't going to the port? Since weather conditions are the deciding factor here, wouldn't you want NCL to hold off as long as possible before they make the decision to cancel in hopes that conditions improve? 

 

I'm not suggesting you don't have a reasonable complaint, however I see all too many people thinking they deserve a full refund because they missed their port, yet they still enjoyed the food, drinks, entertainment and rooms onboard. Of course those same people claim to be a captive at the mercy of the ship, and if you read the terms, that is true. 

 

Stuff happens people, even the best planned trips encounter disappointment, but life is too short to focus on that and not the next adventure. If anything, go ahead and try other cruise lines if you believe NCL is not meeting expectations. 

I am actually a die hard NCL fan and stock holder, which makes this situation disappointing. I am not asking for a full refund. Don't think a full refund is acceptable for me personally (although if I had a wedding shower in bermuda which a group of 50 did, and NCL kidnapped my luggage, I would be asking for that). They kidnapped my luggage, but I wasn't dead set on Bermuda.. I am not even upset about the change, I am upset about the deception. Give me the choice whether I want to go on that ship on Monday.

You make a good point (what are you looking for). I am actually not looking for anything except a small future cruise credit. It just depends on the circumstances, and what you can prove. I am more upset for other people that were clearly deceived and would have canceled. A lot of people making remarks on here saying no way people cancel. I can assure you I was on that cruise, many people were canceling if they were notified.

I think the government coming down on them with a fine will stop this shenanigans, and make them notify about changes when they happen vs stalling until your luggage is already gone. Change happens because people make noise, otherwise it will happen over and over again. 

4 minutes ago, Sugar Magnolia said:

 

Would this be considered lobbying, as you are seeking to effect a change in how government responds to the concerns of a group of people?

 

No lobbying. I am just finding the right people (agency) to file a complaint to and have them investigate based on current us laws and regulations (specifically in this case negligence and deception). I will provide evidence and feedback that I received (along with my own experience), and have the right people do an independent investigation. I won't have any part of that. The only thing I am doing is collecting experiences, evidence, and other materials. Then filing internally, so it actually goes somewhere. 

Lobbying is buying people things or providing services in exchange for something. Like an oil executive taking congressman/congresswomen on fancy dinners to get a law passed. Not exactly the same thing. Just because one has networks to get to the right people that isn't lobbying. That is just pissing off the wrong person... 🙂

3 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

I don't really care and sure am not going to do your work for you. Have fun on your fishing expedition. Ciao.

Sure seems like you do care as you're on a cruise board arguing just to argue. On a cruise you didn't even take LOL Kind of funny. Go out to eat, get with the family, do something productive, or leave the NCL corporate office. Hilarious..

1 hour ago, cruiseny4life said:

Good luck...truly. I hope I'm wrong. Contact the folks on the 12/31 - 1/8 sailing. They're upset and want to fight too. I can't tell you how to contact them though as that breaches Cruise Critic's T&C's. 

 

Let us know the resolution. 

You can have those people contact me. I won't go fishing for complaints, not really allowed to do that. I wasn't on that sailing, so that could be a he/she said thing in the eyes of me. I was physically on this one, so I can put my name and clearance on things as the truth. Saying that, patterns are good for investigations. So if it was a pattern that can help (deception and negligence with concrete evidence), I willing to listen to them. Not sure if you can direct message people on here, but we can discuss ways to do that offline.

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not an NCL stockholder.

It's the USA . You can sue anyone for anything. Good luck.

Again not suing anyone or anything. That is useless, it will go no where. The only course of action is the government. That is the only thing NCL will listen to. They folded very quickly when the CDC came down on them during Covid and were forced into all kinds of testing once they were allowed to sail again.  The government  (US government) rarely loses, it is just about getting the right people on your side.

22 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

Your cruise wasn't cancelled, the itinerary was changed, and there's a world of difference between the two. Once you understand that you may change your mind about spending too much time on pursuing legal or governmental action.

 

Good luck .

 

Well sir, you should re-read what I said. I said negligence is the problem here with deception tactics. Nothing to do with change of location or cancellation. I don’t have to spend much time because I am on the inside. I am gathering information people send to me and then using my network to file internally. Granted first

time doing this, but I have my network that will get me to the right folks.’
 

You’re probably an NCL stock holder (funny thing is I am too). I will defend them for outrageous claims, but people have a legitimate gripe here.

13 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

First, let me say good luck. I hope the credit card company gets you some of your money back. I don't think you'll see anything from your efforts, but seriously, I hope you do.

 

Secondly, everything you mentioned above is about legality. If you go that route, and have a lawyer that takes up your case, I hope you don't lose your shirts. I think you will. Unfortunately, the terms and conditions are pretty clear and you're dealing with a Bahamian corporation, not an American one. See that Bahamian courtesy flag on the aft of the ship.  Yes, we were in the Bahamas, but the ship is also registered in the Bahamas. 

 

 

What you're really discussing are the ethics and morals of a company as I truly don't think you'll receive one penny from NCL, even if you were to take them to court. The leadership at NCL(H) has proven, time and again, they have no morals, no ethics, no idea of what is right and wrong. The almighty dollar is their only concern. 

Should they have sent you the letter that was posted before embarkation to your email? Yes. Would it really have changed you sailing, or not? I highly doubt most would have cancelled as even with CFAR products, you'd only receive 50ish% back. 

 

BTW, the airlines are regulated by the FAA and DOT. Cruise lines are not regulated, except for safety standards per the USCG. 

 The CC companies are the way to get money back. I haven’t charged back anything at this point. However, I guarantee you this falls under the “didn’t get what you paid for categorization”. I may just do it for 50 dollars to prove my point. The CC companies work for the customer. Depending on your level of CC, your experience will be different but you can prove negligence here. I expect a ton of charge backs, and NCL not winning many of the cases. I took the trip, and was alright with it. The only exception is what I talked about above. I don’t plan on suing either. If you look at my reply, it said “an attorney on the ship”. Not my attorney. I don’t need an attorney.
 

Federal gov is the only way to tackle these issues. Little guy attorneys do nothing against big companies. Anyone company doing business within the US (whether they are international or not) has to follow US laws. You could fly the flag of the planet Saturn but you dock in the US, you must follow those laws and regulations. You must follow CDC, FTC, FMC, etc..

Your point about FAA is correct. However, the FAA or the DOT doesn’t have any regulation that says the airlines need to contact you immediately. They do it for the fear of negligence claims. 
 

All in all, you need the people with unlimited money and unlimited resources. You also need someone on the inside helping. I am fortunate enough to be able to do that. So I am taking that responsibility.  as I can do At this point, that is about 378 people that have CC’d me on their complaints to corporate, 

I am still working on which federal agency, multiple agencies, or state agencies this will flow to. I expect to have that wrapped up within a couple weeks. 

5 hours ago, njhorseman said:

 

Sorry you were so disappointed in your cruise. I'm sure many others had similarly disappointing experiences.

 

Having said that  there isn't a lot you can do about it other than opt to not cruise with NCL in the future.

 

It would help if you and the mystery "attorney" you claim to have spoken to had read NCL's Guest Ticket Contract, which you agreed to when you paid for your cruise and completed your online check in. Particularly note the following provision that permits a change of itinerary for any reason.

 

"(c) Itinerary Deviation: The Guest agrees that the Carrier has the sole discretion and liberty to direct the movements of the vessel, including the rights to: proceed without pilots and tow, and assist other vessels in all situations; deviate from the purchased voyage or the normal course for any purpose, including, without limitation, the health and safety in the interest of Guests or of the vessel (including the outbreak of any communicable disease), or to save life or property; put in at any unscheduled or unadvertised port; cancel any scheduled call at any port for any reason and at any time before, during or after sailing of the vessel; omit, advance or delay landing at any scheduled or advertised port; return to port of embarkation or to any port previously visited if the Carrier deems it prudent to do so; substitute another vessel or port(s) of call without prior notice and without incurring any liability to the Guest on account thereof for any loss, damage or delay whatsoever, whether consequential or otherwise, except as may be required by law."

 

As to your statement "They knew any type of communication would lead to mass cancellation" please tell me what good would canceling your cruise in the days immediately preceding departure have done since you would have been subject to a 100% cancellation penalty.

 

Finally, before you spend a lot of time trying to file a compliant with the FMC, you might want to know what type of action the FMC can take. In particular pay close attention to what I've highlighted below in red . 

https://www.fmc.gov/resources-services/cruise-passenger-assistance/

CRUISE SERVICE ISSUES

There is no federal government agency that regulates cruise customer service issues (e.g. itinerary changes, passenger cancellations, cabin concerns, etc.). Moreover, the Commission has limited jurisdiction over cruise lines (pursuant to 46 U.S.C. §§ 44102 – 44103) that embark passengers at locations in the U.S.:

• The Commission cannot order a cruise line to cancel a voyage or to stop operating due to the outbreak of a disease, such as coronavirus
• The Commission cannot order a cruise line to make a refund to a passenger when a passenger decides not to travel
• Passengers should always carefully read their ticket contract, which states the cruise line’s obligations with respect to cancelled cruises and changes in itinerary.

The Commission’s Office of Consumer Affairs & Dispute Resolution Services (CADRS) assists passengers that boarded a passenger vessel at a U.S. port and purchased their ticket directly from the cruise line. CADRS assistance in these matters is a voluntary process. The Commission does not have statutory authority to compel cruise lines to take any particular action to address complaints.

Individuals seeking the assistance of CADRS should provide the following information: a brief description of the complaint; the booking confirmation; copy of the ticket contract and insurance policy; any correspondence the complainant has had with the cruise line; and your contact information. To file a request for assistance please send an e-mail to: complaints@fmc.gov.

 

 I am not arguing that they can cancel for any reason. They have the right to cancel for any reason at any time. Well there are tons of people celebrating things in Bermuda. I saw huge groups of celebrating anniversary’s in Bermuda. I saw people having wedding showers in Bermuda. I spoke to tons of people 50% said they would have canceled and called the CC company,

Saying that, you can sue for negligence at any time per the attorney. You see that statement that says “except when required by law”. You know how airlines send out communication when your trip changes immediately when they find out. It is to avoid negligent lawsuits…If you can prove that a company was negligent and purposely did something negligent that isn’t legal under federal law and NY law. Deception practices are not legal. It is pretty easy to see that was the case here. If they made the decision on Wednesday morning then you’re right, but they didn’t. As far as mass cancellation goes, anyone with a CC can get their money back. I don’t care what the contract says. I know because the CC company isn’t going to buy the NCL excuse here. If you dispute the charges, you will get at least some of your money back on their terms. 
 

As far as government action. As a federal employee myself, I don’t care what it says on their website. Enough complaints and action will be taken. The government acts when mass people are upset. I am taking steps internally to ensure this gets looked at based on negligence business practice claims. It may mean the FTC is the correct government agency (due to them handling business practices), but I am working on that and consulting other colleagues. 
 

Have a great day! 

This was my 10+ cruise with NCL and arguably the worst. There were lines, bar craziness, and long waits for dinner. I will echo some others as the staff did what they could. It wasn’t their fault as they are over worked, and this trip was extremely tough for them. The cruise to no where as I put it. 5 “sea” days is hard for the staff, but I will say NCL did it to themselves. The Jones Act forced them to go to the Bahamas, so I cannot blame that for that. They had to go to an international location, so it was either Canada or the Bahamas. 
 

My complaint has to do with NCL communication. NCL knew they were changing the port on Monday. I know that because the excursion groups were notified on Monday. That meant NCL had 48 hours to alert everyone. They didn’t because of course they wanted everyone to show up. They knew any type of communication would lead to mass cancellation. To me, that is negligence at the very least. It crosses the line in legal territory according to an attorney on the ship. What makes matters worse is, they accepted your luggage and still didn’t tell you. They basically held your property hostage, and said well we are sorry once you got to the check-in line. You had two choices, get your luggage in 5 days, or get on the ship… They knew everyone would get on the ship.

I feel as if a department of transportation complaint is warranted. I am still debating whether to submit or not, but leaning towards yes. We actually have a DOT now that handles these situations and takes action. The specific agency that handles these cruise complaints is the federal marine commission (which falls under the department of transportation). If you would like to file here you go:https://www.fmc.gov/resources-services/filing-a-formal-complaint/

NCL has no choice but to respond to them, but to us they probably say “we are sorry” in 15 business days.