rj42

I agree that regardless of what procedures that are put in place, they won't be enough to overcome the fear, hassles, and risks, since all it takes is one person to shut down a cruise and turn a vacation into a nightmare. Behavior will be ugly and paranoid, with any sneeze or cough liable to provoke outrage, and there will be suspicion and prejudice against the elderly or Chinese passengers. I was on a Princess cruise after a noro outbreak, and it was completely frustrating and miserable, with every buffet item having to be served, meaning long lines, and no access to salt or pepper or sugar, or golf clubs or basketballs. Some people will disregard hygiene practices, and there will be a lot who will monitor everybody else's behavior. If you think embarkation and disembarkation and tendering at ports is a hassle now, it will be a nightmare in the future.  Even if there is a vaccine, I don't know which passengers are actually immune or have forged a certificate, and a doctor's approval for an elderly passenger doesn't give any assurance at all about contracting or surviving Covid. 

The only way to effectively implement the CDC requirements and to get the public feeling safe would be to cut down on passengers, just as restaurants and movie theaters will have to operate at 50% capacity or less. At current passenger levels there's just no way to do that on most ships, particularly if eliminating self-serve at buffets creates even more congestion and waiting in lines in an enclosed area, and an unpleasant buffet experience means more people trying to get into main dining rooms, which are already too full for any distancing. You also can't safely do any passenger drill as currently practiced on any ship. If ships are forced to cut down on passengers, it also probably means they'll try to recoup the lost costs by higher fares and more add-on fees, particularly by adding more exclusive areas on a ship where passengers can pay for more personal space, whether it's a dining place, cabin, spa area, lounge area, or bar.  With a stronger possibility of a delay or cancellation, it will mean more extra travel costs for passengers, lost work, and difficulty in getting a refund for any canceled trip, since the lines will be fighting to stay afloat. 

The problem so much isn't letting them off the ship. The problem is that if you have infected people put on commercial airlines, then you spread Covid everywhere--that's what happened to the passengers of the Costa ship, who were dispersed at Atlanta and many of the passengers without symptoms tested positive when home, after probably infecting many others in the airport and planes and going to home (that's how the Seattle outbreak started). I also remembered the movie "Outbreak", where a sneeze or cough on an airplane from an infected person launched a spread of a deadly virus. So if you have sick passengers and crew, you pretty much have to do the same mandatory quarantine and isolation that the other two Princess ships did, meaning more US military and health system resources taken up for a foreign ship that departed after the Princess outbreak (send the bill to Orlando, and use the Konigsdam as a hospital ship until they pay it). 

It's just sad, because the Zaandam is my favorite HAL ship, one of the few with a real library, spacious promenade, cool musical memorabilia, and none of the Lincoln Center/Billboard corporate blandness of the bigger ships. 

--No passenger access to any buffet food or drink stations. No more sharing tables with potentially ill strangers in the dining room. It will have to be like a real restaurant, with reservations and private tables for everyone. Expand room service and mimic dining room menus for all meals. Stop charging for room service. Maybe make all the buffets a casual sit-down restaurant, where they bring you the food or you pick it up at a counter (Princess does that with morning omelettes, taking a number and delivering to your table). That would potentially mean better, fresher food, instead of buffet slop. 

--I don't mean to offend, but I'd probably avoid any cruises with lots of elderly, especially with oxygen tanks or other signs of frail health, or large numbers of foreign passengers who congregate in large packs and ignore bottle refilling and other hygiene rules. Any cruise over 7 days would feel too risky for me, since I see how average age increases with cruise length. 

--No muster drill, unless it's done in shifts in the theater, where people can preserve space. There's never been an actual lifeboat evacuation that I know of, and the biggest danger to the ship now and passengers is from being physically close. I'll never go on a HAL ship again unless they change the practice of cramming everyone together on the promenade deck. How about everyone confined to their room to watch a video/Captain's and crew take individual cabins throughout the first day to show their muster station? 

--Instead of stealing towels and robes, passengers will start stealing Purell and toilet paper. 

--Flag more ships in the US. The Pride of America already does that, and I'd go on a Hawaiian island cruise if I didn't have to spend 7 days at sea to get there. It also makes it easier to ask for US government help with US-flagged ships and taxes. 

--No spa options that involve touch, probably just fancy steam rooms and pools. No hot tubs.

--Decrease capacity, the exact opposite of what HAL and everyone has been doing. Enforce staggered boarding times. If I go on a ship, I'll want maximum personal space, private area options, and fewest number of passengers who can potentially infect me. 

--In practice, I fear it will mean more carving up ships into 'exclusive' area to pay for personal, private, safe space, like the stupid HAL cabanas or the NCL Haven ("Covid-Free Cabanas, with your own luxurious latex robe and face mask!"). 

The problem as I see it is that CA and Seattle are the centers of major outbreaks, so unless things improve dramatically, they're not going to want any cruise ships. So whatever the lines do, it doesn't make any difference of cities don't want them and if there is any risk of infection on board. I'd love no single supplement, but I'm not getting on a ship if I have to stand against other people for a lifeboat drill, and I'm not really comfortable getting stuck at sea for a month like the Jewel and Maasdam, or even worse, getting stuck on a ship with an outbreak and forcibly quarantined on sea and then land. Social distancing and isolation and boredom is bad enough on land now, with a house and grocery stores to visit, being stuck on a ship where every cough or sneeze is potentially deadly is simply intolerable to contemplate now, and I imagine it is for most of the potential cruise population, especially for those who have lost jobs or face financial uncertainty, or have lost 30% or more of their retirement nest egg (or like me, was foolish enough to buy Carnival stock just to get a cruise credit). Right now cruise lines are the equivalent of flights after 9/11, where people were afraid to get on board. Whether that changes depends more on pandemic spread and government and local policy, as well as fears, public perception, and the state of the economy and stock market than anything the cruise lines do. 

The only short-term option I could think of for now would for Alaska to be the start and end point of a cruise, since they haven't had a serious outbreak, social distancing is much easier, and they have a big financial stake in cruise tourism. Then it would be a matter of bending the law and stopping for a bit in Vancouver harbor by all the cargo ships and calling it a port stop, or persuading some place like Nanaimo to accept a lot of money to let ships tie up without letting anyone off. 

The other compelling way to get masses back on cruise ships is a simple advertising slogan.."Hey we have lots of toilet paper and Purell!". 

Latest is that Hawaii is refusing to let anyone disembark, nor from the Maasdam. So much for the aloha spirit and hospitality. So it looks like another 6+ days at sea in search of a mainland US port, maybe more if it has to go at slow speed. Glad I didn't bite on the cheap Hawaii-Vancouver Jewel trip, or the cheap May Jewel Alaska cruises. 

I love the Bliss hull design. I think I prefer the Joy, because the pool deck is so open, and because "Footloose" is much more interesting than the other 'greatest hits/how they made it big' shows, and the other magic/Cirque du Soleil show was also impressive. I was on it last year just after it was redone for the US market, and it was really the most beautiful ship I've been on, especially the observation lounge area. There was a special moment when we were about to leave Juneau on the Joy and the Bliss sailed right past us to take our berth spot, and all the chefs and other crew came out to wave to their friends. If and when cruising resumes, I'll look forward to trying the Bliss or Joy on a Mexican trip. 

'How dare they not allow me to save my chairs while our group goes to lunch. How dare they not allow me to smoke cigars while playing laser tag. How dare I have to look around for different food stations in the buffet. How dare they set up the buffet for dinner when I want food at 3:30. How dare they not make space for 4,000 people to lay in the sun by a pool or the front observation windows. How dare they not dock during unsafe conditions when I want to go ashore. How dare it rain when I want to lay in the sun and smoke cigars and eat all day. How dare they not listen to my complaints about poor ship design." 

You should definitely write a strongly-worded letter to the CEO demanding change and a ship redesign, and call NCL right now and give them a piece of your mind. The most important thing is to demand that cigar smoking be allowed in all areas where children congregate, such as  laser tag and the go carts and Galaxy Pavilion, instead of only having one small dedicated lounge for cigar smokers (at least you always have your balcony to smoke your cigars on). 

There's no chance the cruise will happen, so you can either cancel now or wait for them to cancel and give you a refund. They can't move the port to Seattle, because it would still have no Canadian ports to make a required foreign stop. There's next to no chance that Seattle will accept cruise ships, because Seattle has banned any gathering over 50 people and closed all restaurants, entertainment venues, and any other gathering spot. I also have a 3-day cruise leaving Vancouver in May, and rather than try to cancel now during the worst customer service emergency and financial/logistical nightmare the cruise lines have ever had, I'm just going to wait for them to cancel and refund, once they realize any cruises out of Seattle or Vancouver aren't going to happen until at least July. 

The Ovation can't go to the Northwest without a foreign stop, and since they can't go to Canada, their only option would be to go to Ensenada, which some California r/t cruises do. But if the Ovation can't cruise the Northwest or Alaska until July 1, there might not be any sense in sending it there for the current schedule, and it could just stay in New Zealand and wait until June to come to the US, presuming that there's any prospect of an Alaska cruise season by then. If companies send their empty ships to Washington, there's really no place to berth all of them, especially since they will effectively be out of action until at least July 1. The only plausible spot for them to cruise would be California to Mexico, since Mexico seems more open to cruise ships now than other places, and Carnival already has 3 ships that sail year-round to Mexico from Long Beach.

Things are also complicated by getting to Hawaii...there's a thread on the NCL boards that the Jewel, currently doing a Polynesian cruise, is stuck at sea because none of the islands want to let it dock and let the passengers off. Hawaii also is unlikely to be receptive to cruises after the Grand Princess visited it with infected crew and passengers.

Washington State is also closing all restaurants, bars, and other gatherings of over 50 people, so for now there's no chance of the port allowing a cruise ship to dock. I'm booked on the Ovation for a 3-day from Vancouver to Seattle, and I'll just wait for them to officially cancel the cruise and issue a refund. 

Alaska has its first case, although he was from a foreign cargo flight so any transmission was probably limited. 

https://www.ktva.com/story/41889255/dunleavy-announces-1st-case-of-coronavirus-in-alaska

The Norwegian ships can't even sail to Seattle, since the trip would require a foreign stop. The only real option would be to keep all the ships in LA and cruise Mexico until the Alaska season opens (possibly). Carnival already has 3 ships that cruise Mexico year-round out of Long Beach, and I would think the Mexican ports would be so happy to get all the money that it would override virus fears. 

There are a number of smaller options for those wanting to see Alaska or the Northwest. 

--Fly to Anchorage and take one of the boat glacier tours.

--Use the Alaska Maritime ferries, which go to most coastal cities. if you want the closest equivalent to a cruise, you can start out in Bellingham, where the ferry leaves the lower 48 (with cabins available and you can bring your own food to avoid shared facilities), and goes from there to Ketchikan and beyond. Bellingham airport has many direct flights on Allegiant, with most coming from Las Vegas, so if you fly to Vegas it's a cheap flight to Bellingham. You also get a more authentic experience on the Alaska ferry, since a lot of the passengers are residents and the ferry is small enough to get into smaller harbors you might never visit (like Haines). 

--Bellingham also gets you close to the WA state ferry in Anacortes which goes to Sydney on Vancouver Island, and also the ferry to explore the San Juans. The BC ferry system operates across the border, also beautiful cruise options with a rented car, particularly the Sunshine Coast, which has plenty of beautiful spots to explore by land and sea.

--You can cruise to Victoria from Seattle and from Port Angeles, on the Olympic Peninsula. Whale watching day cruises are available in most places also, and you can explore places like Bainbridge Island, Bremerton, and Vashon Island from Seattle ferries.

The good thing about ferries is that it's easy to maintain social distance, especially if you stay in a car or stand outside where no droplets stay in the air. Since so many WA and BC residents are dependent on ferries, they're unlikely to be canceled.  WA also has smaller airports with fewer travelers and no international flights, such as Bellingham (BLI) and Everett/Paine Field (PAE). 

I think it would be far-fetched to think that Seattle would open its doors to all the Alaskan cruise ships, particularly give the pandemic centered there now and al the restrictions on public events and all schools in the Puget Sound closed for now. If Victoria and Vancouver are banning cruise ships, it's highly likely that Seattle would do the same, at least for now, and have already canceled the first two ship arrivals. 

The Canadian ban also leaves all the ships returning from Hawaii and California in limbo, since there are no places they can stop in a foreign port, except for perhaps Ensenada, but then if there's no Alaska season until at least July, there's no reason to send the ships there now. So I'm glad I didn't bite on the super-cheap Pacific/NW cruises.

I'm not sure if the new presidential emergency powers allow waiver of the foreign port rule--I'm sure his buddies who own Carnival and Norwegian are making some calls to try to persuade him and to beg for help. 

For those like me who do coastals between SD and Vancouver, Canada also just banned cruise ships from their ports, meaning the ships relocating for the Alaska season won't be able to do a Canadian port stop in order to comply with the law. The only option open to HAL now would be to include a stop in Ensenada before heading north, but then if there won't be any Alaska season until July (since ships can't leave from Vancouver or do a mandatory stop in a foreign port), there's no sense of moving the ships north. It should be a fun time at HAL HQ now, especially since it's in Seattle. 

Every cruise company has a contact information, and most of the junk catalogs I get also have online contacts. I simply send an email saying that if you don't stop sending me unsolicited mail, I'll never cruise on your line again, or solicit whatever business is bothering me. Then if it continues, call their customer service and say "I wrote asking to be removed from your catalog list but my request was ignored, so every catalog I receive means another year where I won't be cruising with your company". Princess cruises is up to a 10-year ban for me now :).

The same goes for 'cruise consultants' calling me at home. The first call gets a warning, and it happens again then it's a one-year ban for every call. You can get the person's name and send a letter to the CEO telling why they lost your business.  The companies only care about making money off you, so they have no incentive to stop marketing as much as possible unless you make it clear and direct that they'll lose your business if they don't stop. 

The more important player is Canada, because if they block ships, none of the Seattle ships have a foreign port to do their mandatory stop. Still, if Seattle isn't allowing baseball games, concerts, or even large church services, they're unlikely to allow cruise ships with thousands of passengers, especially coming from other areas of possible contamination.

Every infection and death in the Seattle area originated from a man returning from Wuhan to Seatac and using some shuttle or bus to get home. And if you go there, you don't know if the person sitting next to you on a plane, shuttle, or ship caught the virus from someone who visited Italy or China or anywhere else. Personally, I'd rather stay home and keep a safe personal space from any strangers than risk having lungs filled with pus and fluid, or having an emergency tracheotomy performed on me, or even worse, infecting someone I care about. 

If you want a Northwest cruise, the WA state ferries make a nice option, with several options to get to Victoria, and the BC ferries visit many beautiful spots, including the Sunshine Coast. If you really want to cruise to Alaska, Bellingham WA has a stop for the Alaska State Marine System ferries, which visit all up the Alaska coast, with no required Canada stop. 

Seattle has also banned the first two cruise ships scheduled to arrive in April and the Governor canceled any public gatherings of over 250 people, which would seem to include cruise ships. 

I was looking at the HAL and NCL boards and one said their ship wasn't allowed to tender in Cabo, just sit there for a bit before moving on, and multiple stops in Mazatlan have been cancelled, with the State Department raising their threat warning for Mazatlan due to high crime risk. So anyone having second thoughts might want to look at going to an all-inclusive resort in Cabo or Puerto Vallarta, which are probably even cheaper than usual with the current situation and this late in winter. I know LA and Seattle both have direct flights to those locations, and package deals through Alaska Air. 

The three Westerdam Seattle r/t cruises in April are dirt-cheap, with oceanview obstructed for $150 per person for 3 and 4 nights, with no single supplement. Their first Alaska sailing is also cheap (but they'll get you on port fees, now up to $270 or so). These were a last-minute scramble, since the Westerdam canceled all their Asia trips and is evidently doing their transpacific without passengers, so they're occupying time before the Alaska season starts in May. 

The problem (apart from freezing winds and weather likely in April), is that the cruises might not happen. The Port of Seattle just disallowed the first two ship arrivals in April, after Seattle and the state started to forbid any gathering of over 250 people, and it's not likely to get better in a month. The original infected person in Seattle returned from Wuhan through Seatac and spread the virus through group transportation home, so there are a lot of risks before and after a cruise. Even worse, Canada is debating whether to forbid ships from its ports as well, meaning no Victoria stop on Seattle trips to comply with foreign-stop law, and thus no Alaska season. Santa Barbara and Monterey already put a moratorium on cruise ships into effect, so personally I'm not willing to jump on any bargain fares for any Pacific Coastals or Alaska cruises. 

For those who want to see the northwest by sea, riding ferries in BC and WA seems a much better option, and for those who want to cruise to Alaska, your best bet might be the Alaska State Ferry system, which has cabins available and leaves from Bellingham WA (my home) and is small enough to get into the smaller harbors and ports that cruise ships don't visit. 

I'm considering getting on one of the cheap Seattle Westerdam cruises in April, since I'm local and wouldn't have to fly.  One of my concerns, though, is about the safety drill, where people are packed against each other like sardines on the promenade deck. I never feel comfortable being trapped like that and forced to stand in place for over 20 minutes, and with coronavirus, it seems too close for comfort for me. Has anyone on a recent HAL cruise had any different experience (other than the two new ships without a proper promenade)? It would seem a golden opportunity to embrace the practice of NCL and Princess, by having people gather in public areas instead, since contamination is the greatest safety threat now, yet HAL starts off cruises by having people breathe on someone less than a foot away for an extended period and the crew yell at people to get as close to each other as possible. They can also check attendance much easier that way, instead of having multiple Filipinos yelling out room numbers over constant chatter (completely useless, since they rarely finish before the captain starts speaking). 

So now the Regal off Miami is also stuck at sea, since it also had a former Grand crew member, meaning its upcoming cruise will be canceled. The same with the Royal. The Carnival Panorama made everybody stay on board an extra day because a disembarking passenger had symptoms, while everyone scheduled to embark had to find their own hotel room for the night (competing with everyone on the canceled Royal cruise). The new procedures agreed to yesterday will supposedly include disembarkation temperature screening, and so that means a single fever can mean everyone stays on the ship to avoid a repeat of the Grand passengers spreading contagion, and embarking passengers would either have their cruise delayed or canceled and left to fend for themselves for getting lodging and air changes. Also, if you go back from any infected ship, you have to worry about whether you somehow have the virus and can transmit it to others, and coworkers and neighbors might avoid you if they find out you were on an affected cruise (it's not fair, but people now are in hysteria mode--look at the stores shelves emptied of toilet paper). Going on a Princess cruise now is like a Muslim flying after 9/11--people will be afraid of you. 

Onboard, I'd be reluctant to go on any ship that uses tongs in a buffet, and I just shudder to think of the HAL safety drills with everyone jammed against each other like sardines. As another poster said, I'm not scared of the virus, I'm just scared of being stuck on a ship or having my cruise canceled or delayed while I'm at the port. It's not worth it, especially with plenty of cheap airfare and empty planes to take me to places where I can get sun or ocean beauty without getting close to people, particularly the sick and elderly.

6 hours ago, Fletch1 said:

I agree.....Princess can't win. Why can't another cruise line be centre of attention? 

The Carnival Panorama locked down everyone scheduled to disembark and made the new passengers book hotels for the night, because one disembarking passengers showed symptoms. So it's not just Princess now, and the new imminent cruise screening procedures will supposedly include screening at disembarkation, so any time any ship has a passenger with a high temperature, the ship is likely to be put on lockdown until that person is tested and cleared. 

It's hard to beat the Carnival yield, especially now, at over 7%. With 10-year Treasuries below 1% now, it's a way for retirees to get some additional income, if you're willing to hold onto the shares and Carnival doesn't cut the dividend. If you factor in the shareholder credit, it makes it even more comforting to hold onto the stock, at least for those like me who only have 100 shares.

I'm not worried about getting sick, but if one person on a ship gets sick, then you either won't be allowed to return home and/or will be quarantined, which I don't want to risk, especially after the Grand Princess is now stuck in limbo. It had infected people getting off the ship in Mexico and Hawaii, and Seattle has had the virus spreading for weeks, and Vancouver is up to 12 cases, with a significant Chinese and Iranian immigrant population. 

While the cost of not going on a cruise can be high, you get your taxes back, you don't spend all the money on gratuities, drinks, shopping, and getting to a ship, and with all the fears and hassles and suspicion anytime anyone coughs or sneezes or wheezes, it's not my idea of a fun vacation. You can also put it in perspective, that if you have a lot of savings in the stock market, you've probably lost much more recently than the cost of a cruise. 

I nearly booked cheap Mexico or Hawaii cruises on NCL leaving this month, but after reading about the Grand Princess stuck outside SF until the entire ship is tested (and likely quarantined), I'm not going to risk getting stuck on a ship with infected people. That's especially true since the infection started on the previous cruise to Mexico, so infected passengers went not only to Mexico, but also Hawaii. There were also 60 or so passengers doing a Mexico-Hawaii back-to-back, thus ensuring that the virus spread to the next group of passengers (along with infected crew). I also don't want to deal with all the hassle and hysteria, particularly on the Pacific Coastal cruises I usually do usually have large crowds of ethnic Chinese from Vancouver, so everyone will get suspicious anytime any passenger coughs or sneezes. Then there's the airports and shuttles and planes to get to a cruise, also with hundreds of strangers in close physical proximity. For the Alaska season, the virus has been spreading for weeks in the Seattle area, and Vancouver has 12 cases and a large population of Chinese and Iranian immigrants, so I'd rather stay home and safe and not spend money on travel, particularly after significant investment losses. 

You'll be bored and she will be too. You should look at the Norwegian Joy and Bliss, both which have a go-kart track, virtual reality arcade, laser tag, mini golf, Cavern Club/Beatles cover band, real Broadway shows ("Footloose" and "Jersey Boys"), a comedy club with adult and family-friendly shows, two big water slides and a dedicated kid's pool/splash area, a robust kid's program, and a much younger demographic so both mother and daughter will find plenty of others of the same age.  You'd also find it easier to dine, with a huge buffet and three non-pay dining restaurants, plus a pub-style restaurant that's also free, with no formal, set dining time. 

I passed 100 cruise days for HAL on the Oosterdam, and I'm bored with the sameness and blandness of the corporatized entertainment and activities. The dancers and singers of the Oosterdam were replaced with a couple of dance shows, and the rest is filled with third-rate Vegas-style entertainers. On the Joy in Alaska last May I had "Footloose", an impressive Cirque-du-Soleil type magic show, Beatles mainstage and Cavern Club shows, 4 or so other bands rotating around the ship, two comedians doing 6 or so different shows, and both the Bliss and Joy are new ships, so all the artwork and design and furniture is modern and pleasant, even down to a real glass shower door in the bathrooms, versus a flimsy shower curtain on the Oosterdam. I also found the outside Waterfront walk on deck 8 ideal for watching glaciers and whales, with outside bar and restaurant seating as well. Plus one night the buffet had a unlimited king crab legs and little treats that impress big kids like me (peanut brittle and gummi bears, for example). I've always loved the Crow's Nest on HAL ships, but the huge wrap-around observation lounges at the front of the Bliss and Joy put it to shame, with comfortable furniture, self-serve food stations, and huge windows at the very front of the ship. In Seattle, Norwegian has its own terminal on the downtown waterfront, so you'll only have passengers with one ship there to deal with, but Smith Cove terminal where HAL boards is outside downtown and might have 3 or more ships in port trying to process passengers. 

The Oosterdam has better dining room food, but a 7-year-old isn't going to be impressed by that. The Oosterdam also goes to the huge Hubbard Glacier, but the Bliss goes into Glacier Bay and the Joy visits a narrow fjord and spins around in front of the Dawes Glacier. The Joy also visits Icy Straight Point, which has the world's biggest zipline, also a big thrill for a kid. Of course, all the special stuff on the Norwegian ships will cost you, but I actually felt joy on the Joy, whereas on the Oosterdam in December I just felt bored. Norwegian will be expanding even more in Alaska next summer, with the new Norwegian Encore going there. 

The blue/green goo they pass off as shampoo and body wash is one of the weak points of Princess (down there with Carnival), after I've been spoiled by the Elemis products on HAL. Even Norwegian has green goo that at least has a lime scent. It's a disappointment, along with the shower curtains that always leave the floor wet, and it detracts from the experience of having such comfortable beds. 

The minibar (or coffee card) setup is nice, especially for those like me who go solo on mostly 3-5 day cruises, as is having a dedicated boarding lounge if you show up early. Another nice perk is having a dedicated line at ship services, so once when I had an unexpected refundable credit the final morning I was able to go ahead of all the agitated people with shipboard account complaints and get my cash. 

As a solo cruiser, I also appreciate that they offer loyalty status based on number of cruises (with double credit given to solo cruisers), rather than just cruise days, as everyone else does. Now if they'd only put some studio cabins on their ship and offer more cruises at less than 200% single supplement, they'd really get my loyalty.