counting cards: blackjack

[psychtobe]

i am a former card counter - never at a high level, but i mastered a simple count system that eliminated the house edge.

 

on my recent trip on RCL Grandeur of the Seas, these were the following rules and my observations:

 

six deck shoe

double any first 2 cards

split up to 3 times except aces

double after split

blackjack pays 3-2

dealer hits soft 17

no surrender

penetration about 2/3+

 

By my calculation, house edge is around 0.6% with these rules. For comparison, house edge for craps with single odds is 0.8%; and double zero roulette is 5.2%; so even without counting, casino blackjack is not too bad.

 

i also noticed that the pit bosses did not hover the same way as in Vegas, and so I started to wonder if counting could be a viable strategy on these ships. Not to 'make money' of course, but just to eliminate the House Vig. It seemed to me that no one was paying all that much attention to the possibility. In addition, there were a lot of bad players, betting more money than me, so it seems the House wouldn't have that much incentive to catch a small time amateur counter.

 

Any thoughts from the other gamblers?

[TERRY223]

Please excuse my curiousity Pyschtobe, but aside from all of your odds calculations, my question is, Are you going to sit down at a 21 table with a sign around your neck that reads "CARD COUNTER"?? If you are able to count a six-deck-shoe, with any degree of success, then by all means- try to be as 'indiscreet' as possible.

[gogetter]

Hello,

 

It's bad enough to cont cards, but with all the bad players.....that is bound to mess your strategy up.

 

Anyways.......they can't possibly keep tabs on it. You should try though..after all on a 7 day cruise, you should be able to rack up a few thousand or so, depending on your bankroll of course.

[Geezer Jim]

If you're looking for a more profitable way to offset your cruise costs a cruise on a ship with Texas Holdem, and lots of sea days, is probably a better way to go for a dedicated and knowledgeable gambler.

[FEMH]

Your're only going to get caught if you: 1) are using anything other than a mental system to count the cards (and I don't think you'll be doing that), or 2) if you are increasing your bet substantially at the appropriate time and are noticed. Given that the pit bosses are not very attentive, why not go ahead and try it.

But remember, a cruise is supposed to be fun, and card counting is hard work. Why not try craps with full odds. That offers a very good player advantage.

[LARGIN]

You have to be a master counter to count a six deck shoe especially since they reshuffle with around 1/3 left. The basic problem is newbie BJ players.. The only way to play is latenight one on one with the dealer or fill the table with friends that play the same way you do. I have found that way too many people playing BJ on cruises have no idea how to play. On one cruise, some guy at the end seat was drunk, playing big $$ and standing when he should hit and hitting when he should stand. The women in the first seat threatened to throw him overboard. I just excused myself from the table and returned after the drunk wandered off less his money.

[cruzincurt]

What the "untrained" do no longer affects me; I just look at the dealer and we roll our eyes together. In the long run it does not matter. A mis-play one hand may set you up for a win next hand; but you don't remember those hands. How about the pain of watching someone split 5's with a dealer 10 showing? Yikes!!!

 

How can you count with a continuous shuffler that some ships now use? The Caribbean Princess used a continuous shuffler at the $5 table. The $25 table was single deck.

 

When I play in the casino, I don't quite see it as "fun", I see it as going to work against the house.

[psychtobe]

i have never considered myself a good poker player, but i suppose for the skilled player that would be the way to go, if available.

 

no, it is not possible to count a continuous shuffle.

 

counting a 6 deck shoe with 2/3 penetration (1/3 left) leaves enough opportunities for favorable scenarios that I believe the house edge would be eliminated, even with a simple count that does not require much additional work. this means one could play for fun, if one found blackjack fun.

 

being mathematically inclined (please see my posts in this thread, for example: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=105274), i do not believe that what other players do impacts my odds at blackjack. their 'bad' plays may turn out to be favorable or unfavorable to me. in the long run, they have no impact.

 

craps is a great game, but only offered single odds on the ship i was on. House edge with single odds is 0.8%, so blackjack with the rules i listed is actually a better bet.

 

it sounds like others agree that pit bosses on cruise ships may not be real card-counter savvy, and that (as long as i don't have a very large bet spread or make other unorthodox plays like splitting tens against a six when count is strongly positive) i should be ok.

[jgmpuma]

Ship casinos do have surveillance cameras, so I assume that someone other than just the pit boss is watching the play. In general, though, most players are pretty unsophisticated and their play is so quirky that a counter upping his bet with a good card count wouldn't be noticed.

 

I can only remember one time when I was pretty sure that another player was counting. He was joking and cutting up like everyone else, but I could also tell that he was watching the cards very carefully. When he upped his bets, it was always near the end of the shoe, and not by any huge amount.

[cruzincurt]

I was told once that there is nobody watching the cameras on a ship. They are just being recorded for future reference and review on land.

 

I try to be a rhythm dice roller and set the dice and try for one bounce off the back wall. Once the stick man cautioned me about throwing the dice too high. It is hard to make money at the craps table on a ship since most players just throw the dice randomly. The house really has the edge on random play.

 

Only once was I in a game where the gutters were full of chips due to a monster 45 minute roll by one guy. I made a lot of money that night even with single odds.

 

On the last Veendam cruise, the majority of time the craps table was closed due to lack of interest, on RCCL cruises, you couldn't get a spot at the rail.

[Donnaluv2cruise]

OK Someone give me the rules. When to hit and when not to hit. My father-in-law won't be there to give me the nod and I don't want to tick anybody off.

[LARGIN]

OK Someone give me the rules. When to hit and when not to hit. My father-in-law won't be there to give me the nod and I don't want to tick anybody off.

 

go here...

 

http://www.blackjack-strategycard.com/blackjack_strategy_&_rules_-_multi_deck.htm

[cruzincurt]

The other thing to do is to get a blackjack computer training program and practice...practice...practice.

[Cantwaittosailtheseas]

Yes, please, please, please people -- read a blackjack book, study the rules online, practice on Blackjack software, rent a Blackjack instruction video -- but please do not sit at a Blackjack table unless you know how to play. I can't stand people who think the object is just to get to 21 no matter what the dealer is showing!

[crystalgirl]

I know that I am the kind of player that all of you hate. I go, have fun, and play how I want to. No matter what the dealer is showing, no matter what everyone else is showing. I have a good time, and don't really care if I lose the money (but I usually end up a little ahead!). Why does everyone get so upset with players like me?

 

I do want to add, I play on the smallest min tables (like $1 or $2 a hand). I figure that is the place to play if I just want to have fun, and not worry about so many rules and numbers.

 

Jeannette

[LARGIN]

I know that I am the kind of player that all of you hate. I go, have fun, and play how I want to. No matter what the dealer is showing, no matter what everyone else is showing. I have a good time, and don't really care if I lose the money (but I usually end up a little ahead!). Why does everyone get so upset with players like me?

 

I do want to add, I play on the smallest min tables (like $1 or $2 a hand). I figure that is the place to play if I just want to have fun, and not worry about so many rules and numbers.

 

Jeannette

 

While you are having fun playing how you want to no matter what the dealer is showing and losing your $2, I am sitting next to you losing $100 because of your inability to know what you are doing.. :rolleyes:

[crystalgirl]

While you are having fun playing how you want to no matter what the dealer is showing and losing your $2, I am sitting next to you losing $100 because of your inability to know what you are doing.. :rolleyes:

 

Isn't that what the higher $ tables are for? Last cruise I was on (now granted it was a long time ago!), there were many different tables. Like $2 min, $5 min, $10 min, $25 min, $50 min. I was under the impression that if you really were serious about it, and were placing large bets, you would be over at one of the higher tables. I could see getting upset if I went over there to have fun, because I percieve those to be for the serious players who were betting serious money. But the $2 tables?

 

Jeannette

[cruzincurt]

Crystalgirl, you are somewhat correct. Someone betting $100 per hand at a $5 table is probably just showing off. They have to bear the casual player who is just having "fun". I stay away from tables having such players.

 

However, playing "blindly" just to have fun is what keeps those lights on in Vegas. I play in the casino to have fun and as my recreation but I also want to play intelligently with my hard earned money.

 

Playing basic strategy will not guarantee me winning but I'll be there playing (and having fun) a lot longer. How you play will not affect my outcome in the long run and I have even more fun myself watching people splitting 5's and 10's.

[crystalgirl]

Thanks for your reply and clarification Curt! I will read up a little before my next cruise so I can last a little longer at the table! :D

[LARGIN]

Crystalgirl, you are somewhat correct. Someone betting $100 per hand at a $5 table is probably just showing off. They have to bear the casual player who is just having "fun". I stay away from tables having such players.

 

QUOTE]

 

I disagree about showing off as a $5 table is a $5 minimum bet table not a constant $5 play table. Most of the time, only the $5 table is open unless you make arrangements with the Casino Manager. Starting with a $25 bet and using a money management system, your bets can exceed $100 during a winning streak..

[cruzincurt]

If you want to play with $25 and up per bet they will be more than willing to open a table for you. Don't complain about the $5 bettors, they have just as much right to be there and play however they want with their money.

 

If you want to be totally among serious gamblers, then go to Vegas.

[BobBeaSea]

At one time I was like other Blackjack players who cringe when a non basic strategy player(s) sits at the table. After reading Scarne and other notables the expert consensus is a 50/50 wash. In other words they "help" as much as "hurt".

 

Still can't watch'em though.

[cruzincurt]

I agree but I don't mind watching them because they won't be there for long. The dealer will turn to me and wink from time to time.

 

My wife can't understand how I can sit there for a couple of hours and break even at least. Well, that's my recreation.

[Cantwaittosailtheseas]

Isn't that what the higher $ tables are for? Last cruise I was on (now granted it was a long time ago!), there were many different tables. Like $2 min, $5 min, $10 min, $25 min, $50 min. I was under the impression that if you really were serious about it, and were placing large bets, you would be over at one of the higher tables. I could see getting upset if I went over there to have fun, because I percieve those to be for the serious players who were betting serious money. But the $2 tables?

 

Jeannette

 

 

So you are saying the $2 and $5 minimum tables are only for the stupid people who don't know how to play and just want to have fun? How about those of us who are intelligent enough to learn basic strategy and not rich enough to bet $25 per hand? Where are we supposed to sit? I like to have fun at the table too, but I'm not going to throw my money away, not care about how my actions affect the people next to me, and have the invisible dunce cap on my head while the dealer gives knowing winks at the basic strategists. I see that you've changed your mind and decided to read up on strategy. Good for you! Now if I could just have anyone sailing the Grandeur on March 19 to do the same, I will be happy! :D

[crystalgirl]

So you are saying the $2 and $5 minimum tables are only for the stupid people who don't know how to play and just want to have fun?

Well, that was uncalled for! I don't consider myself "stupid" at all. I was just saying that the more serious (not more intellegent, that has nothing to do with it!) players would play at a higher minimum table. When I played, the other players did not have any problems with me, or how I played. I had a couple give me some great pointers, since it was obvious that I was not a regular player, and I was just in for the fun.

 

And for the record, I had decided (before this thread) that I was going to stick with video poker this next cruise. Not because of not knowing the "real" way to play, just because I think the very small amount of money that I go into the casino with would last longer. BUT if I change my mind and decide to play a hand or two, rest assured, I won't be there too long to mess up your game. I always go in with a very small amount of money. BECAUSE IT IS FUN, not because I want to win enough to retire!

 

Jeannette