Why no life guards??

[Karysa]

There is a heck of a lot more room at a hotel or resort for a fence than on a ship. A fence might keep kids out of a pool when it was closed but during the day it would just be another barrier making it hard to monitor the kids in the pool. It just isn't a practical solution.

 

Interesting. Would you prefer lifeguards or status quo then?

[katyjeka]

If you are standing IN the water with your four year old, you will know they are in trouble. I don't mean sitting on a chair soaking up the sun, peeking over at your child every few minutes. We have a pool at our house. We keep it padlocked, yes padlocked, key hidden so that our children must ask for it. We paid a couple thousand for a alarm system to alert us if the water is entered. It works as our system went off when a squirrel decided to swim. When friends are over with their children they are in with them, or the pool is not opened, not seated around the pool, but in the water.I will keep my mouth shut, from this post on, but the fact is the children were not properly supervised. This has nothing to do with the cruiseline. It comes down to an adult failing the children.

[Karysa]

If you are standing IN the water with your four year old, you will know they are in trouble. I don't mean sitting on a chair soaking up the sun, peeking over at your child every few minutes. We have a pool at our house. We keep it padlocked, yes padlocked, key hidden so that our children must ask for it. We paid a couple thousand for a alarm system to alert us if the water is entered. It works as our system went off when a squirrel decided to swim. When friends are over with their children they are in with them, or the pool is not opened, not seated around the pool, but in the water.I will keep my mouth shut, from this post on, but the fact is the children were not properly supervised. This has nothing to do with the cruiseline. It comes down to an adult failing the children.

 

But as a society, is that good enough? Not my responsibility to protect those kids. Is that good enough?

Edited February 7, 2014 by Karysa

[Swampbabe]

Yes I am older than you and have lived here a long time and have a pool.

I have a pool as well and if you have lived here all that time then you know that fences or screens have ALWAYS been required with latches/locks at least five feet from the ground. In addition, here in Brevard County you also have to have alarms on your windows and doors. So, your earlier post made no sense. Sorry

[declansdad]

Interesting. Would you prefer lifeguards or status quo then?

 

 

Status quo, parents or guardians are responsible for their children while in their care. If the kids club included a pool activity, I would expect the ship to provide the supervision.

[Karysa]

Status quo, parents or guardians are responsible for their children while in their care. If the kids club included a pool activity, I would expect the ship to provide the supervision.

 

Fair enough. Do you feel the same way about a community pool or a y? Do you think hotels should lock pools or is it the parents responsibility and if there is a difference in your answers, (you knew I would ask it) why?

 

I find this discussion very interesting if you haven't already guessed.

[declansdad]

Fair enough. Do you feel the same way about a community pool or a y? Do you think hotels should lock pools or is it the parents responsibility and if there is a difference in your answers, (you knew I would ask it) why?

 

I find this discussion very interesting if you haven't already guessed.

 

 

I think community pools/YMCA should provide lifeguards. The pools tend to be bigger, there are more people typically in the pools, there are more activities going on in the pool and the areas are less controlled. With a resort or hotel, the answer again will depend on the type of environment the pool is in.

[rickrone]

Why do cruise ships not have lifeguards at the adult or children's pool? Wouldn't this be a liability issue?

 

no, because you swim at your own risk. parents that are drunk and lazy is no excuse, watch your kids. don't pass the blame on anyone else.

[Karysa]

I think community pools/YMCA should provide lifeguards. The pools tend to be bigger, there are more people typically in the pools, there are more activities going on in the pool and the areas are less controlled. With a resort or hotel, the answer again will depend on the type of environment the pool is in.

 

So it's the size of the pool not the depth that makes you think that cruiseship pools don't need any lifeguards or segregation, is that correct? So even a 40 ft x 20 ft pool that is 5 ft deep should be out in the middle of the pool deck even now after the recent tragedies?

 

This question is open to all BTW.:)

[Karysa]

no, because you swim at your own risk. parents that are drunk and lazy is no excuse, watch your kids. don't pass the blame on anyone else.

 

Couldn't the same be said about a community pool? And what about a backyard pool they need to be fenced and if someone is in them without your knowledge they are trespassing. Should backyard pools not need fences with locks in the city?

[esp13]

There is no legal requirement of fencing around pools, at least as a general rule although I suppose some communities may have their own laws on that. The reason there is generally fencing involved is because most insurance companies will not insure the pool unless those measures are taken.

 

Community pools and hotel pools, at least the ones I'm familiar with, have fencing that is more about keeping people who are not members/guests out of the pool. At the hotel I stayed in on Maui recently, there was one pool which was close to the beach which had a fence and gate and another closer to the hotel which did not. Neither pool had lifeguards and the signs on that were clearly posted. The community pools in my area (i.e. that are part of subdivisions) also do not have lifeguards.

 

So, there are reasons that other pools have fences and/or lifeguards that simply do not apply to a cruise ship. They don't need to keep nonmembers out and don't have to worry about insurance coverage for the pool.

 

The Breakaway has been sailing for 8 months. At a very conservative average of 3000 people per week that is approximately 108,000 people on that ship. There has been one drowning death, which is .009 percent of the guests on the ship. Yes, even one death is a tragedy, but it's hardly evidence of a need to completely overhaul the pool deck. Not every tragedy is preventable and nobody knows whether those measures you suggest would have even made a difference in this case.

[Karysa]

There is no legal requirement of fencing around pools, at least as a general rule although I suppose some communities may have their own laws on that. The reason there is generally fencing involved is because most insurance companies will not insure the pool unless those measures are taken.

 

Community pools and hotel pools, at least the ones I'm familiar with, have fencing that is more about keeping people who are not members/guests out of the pool. At the hotel I stayed in on Maui recently, there was one pool which was close to the beach which had a fence and gate and another closer to the hotel which did not. Neither pool had lifeguards and the signs on that were clearly posted. The community pools in my area (i.e. that are part of subdivisions) also do not have lifeguards.

 

So, there are reasons that other pools have fences and/or lifeguards that simply do not apply to a cruise ship. They don't need to keep nonmembers out and don't have to worry about insurance coverage for the pool.

 

The Breakaway has been sailing for 8 months. At a very conservative average of 3000 people per week that is approximately 108,000 people on that ship. There has been one drowning death, which is .009 percent of the guests on the ship. Yes, even one death is a tragedy, but it's hardly evidence of a need to completely overhaul the pool deck. Not every tragedy is preventable and nobody knows whether those measures you suggest would have even made a difference in this case.

 

Don't forget the near drowning. Thank goodness there was only one death here but we could very well be talking about 2 deaths of children 6 and under. I think that we have heard about more drownings and near drownings in the last couple of years on cruiseships. There are more people cruising no doubt and this is contributing to this statistic. I also agree that many hotel pools want to keep non guests out but they also want to keep small unattended children that are staying in the hotel out as well wouldn't you think?

 

I still think that as a society we need to protect the innocents better. In this situation other than fencing in and having security make sure small children are not allowed in the pool or hiring lifeguards how can we as a society protect small children on cruiseships from drowning in pools or is it simply not our problem?

 

BTW I would not have an option to not fence a pool in and secure it with a lock in my community and it's not an insurance issue it is to help keep our fellow citizens safe.

[Swampbabe]

There is no legal requirement of fencing around pools, at least as a general rule although I suppose some communities may have their own laws on that. The reason there is generally fencing involved is because most insurance companies will not insure the pool unless those measures are taken.

 

Community pools and hotel pools, at least the ones I'm familiar with, have fencing that is more about keeping people who are not members/guests out of the pool. At the hotel I stayed in on Maui recently, there was one pool which was close to the beach which had a fence and gate and another closer to the hotel which did not. Neither pool had lifeguards and the signs on that were clearly posted. The community pools in my area (i.e. that are part of subdivisions) also do not have lifeguards.

 

So, there are reasons that other pools have fences and/or lifeguards that simply do not apply to a cruise ship. They don't need to keep nonmembers out and don't have to worry about insurance coverage for the pool.

 

The Breakaway has been sailing for 8 months. At a very conservative average of 3000 people per week that is approximately 108,000 people on that ship. There has been one drowning death, which is .009 percent of the guests on the ship. Yes, even one death is a tragedy, but it's hardly evidence of a need to completely overhaul the pool deck. Not every tragedy is preventable and nobody knows whether those measures you suggest would have even made a difference in this case.

 

FWIW, there are laws regarding this here in Florida, both for commercial and residential pools. The number one cause of death in Florida for children under the age of five is drowning.

[Oppalopa]

I have a pool as well and if you have lived here all that time then you know that fences or screens have ALWAYS been required with latches/locks at least five feet from the ground. In addition, here in Brevard County you also have to have alarms on your windows and doors. So, your earlier post made no sense. Sorry

No not always I can remember when they started the law and it was only regarding new homes and pools. Was not ALWAYS required I am older than you more polite too

[Swampbabe]

No not always I can remember when they started the law and it was only regarding new homes and pools. Was not ALWAYS required I am older than you more polite too

 

All pools in South Florida have had to be screened/fenced since at least 1965. Politeness has nothing to do with it. You intimated that the screen/fence law was recent and has cut down drowning. It is still the number one cause of death for children under 5. Your insurance will not cover a pool not properly secured and it is a code violation that can result in some pretty hefty fines. ALL pools, not just new construction.

[ksimpso3]

I am required by law to have a fence around my pool also. We have 6 acres and the few neighbors we have don't have children so no one should be near our yard or pool, but we have our fence. I find it very odd though that several neighborhoods in our town have man-made ponds in the middle of them but no fences were placed around them .There are tons of kids living in these developments...many more than my backyard will see...so why wouldn't fences be required around these ponds? I always see kids standing around them fishing and just think it is much more of a hazard than my pool.

 

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[NLH Arizona]

There is no legal requirement of fencing around pools, at least as a general rule although I suppose some communities may have their own laws on that. The reason there is generally fencing involved is because most insurance companies will not insure the pool unless those measures are taken.

 

Community pools and hotel pools, at least the ones I'm familiar with, have fencing that is more about keeping people who are not members/guests out of the pool. At the hotel I stayed in on Maui recently, there was one pool which was close to the beach which had a fence and gate and another closer to the hotel which did not. Neither pool had lifeguards and the signs on that were clearly posted. The community pools in my area (i.e. that are part of subdivisions) also do not have lifeguards.

 

So, there are reasons that other pools have fences and/or lifeguards that simply do not apply to a cruise ship. They don't need to keep nonmembers out and don't have to worry about insurance coverage for the pool.

 

The Breakaway has been sailing for 8 months. At a very conservative average of 3000 people per week that is approximately 108,000 people on that ship. There has been one drowning death, which is .009 percent of the guests on the ship. Yes, even one death is a tragedy, but it's hardly evidence of a need to completely overhaul the pool deck. Not every tragedy is preventable and nobody knows whether those measures you suggest would have even made a difference in this case.

In Arizona there are laws with regard to fencing and we still have children drowing every year in family pools.

 

At a residence with a swimming pool where one or more children under six years of age live in the residence:

 

A.R.S. § 36-1681 requires that a swimming pool be protected by an enclosure (wall, fence, or barrier) that surrounds the pool area. Unless a local code provides otherwise, the enclosure of a belowground or aboveground pool must:

• Entirely enclose the pool area;
  
• Be at least 5 feet high;
  
• Have no openings other then doors or gates, through which an object 4 inches in diameter can pass;
  
• Have no openings, handholds, or footholds accessible from the exterior side that can be used to climb the barrier; and
  
• Be at least 20 inches from the water's edge.
  

If, however, a residence or living area makes up part of the enclosure required by A.R.S. § 36-1681(B), there must be:

• A wall, fence, or barrier located between the swimming pool or other contained body of water and the residence or living area that:
  
  • Has a height of at least four feet;
    
  • Has no openings through which a spherical object four inches in diameter can pass;
    
  • Has a gate that opens outward from the pool and is self-closing and self-latching;
    
  • Has no openings, handholds, or footholds accessible from the exterior side of the enclosure that can be used to climb the wall, fence, or barrier; and
    
  • Is at a distance of at least twenty inches from the water's edge;
    

For each door or window in the residence or living area that has direct access to the pool:

• A self-latching device that is located not less then fifty-four inches above the floor; and
  
• Either a screwed in wire mesh screen covering a dwelling or guest room window or a keyed lock that prevents a dwelling or guest room window from opening more then four inches
  

[karoo]

It is still the number one cause of death for children under 5.

 

Same here in Aus -which is why we have had add campaigns on TV alerting parents to the dangers, how quick they can drown etc and that vigilant parental/responsible adult supervision is needed to keep children safe. We don't have drownings at local pools as rules are in place and enforced. No children under a certain age can swim if they don't have a parent/responsible adult with them.

 

Most of our drownings of under 5 children occur in backyard swimming pools that are fenced by law-so fencing unfortunately does not prevent drownings.

Edited February 8, 2014 by karoo

[Karysa]

It is still the number one cause of death for children under 5.

 

Same here in Aus -which is why we have had add campaigns on TV alerting parents to the dangers, how quick they can drown etc and that vigilant parental/responsible adult supervision is needed to keep children safe. We don't have drownings at local pools as rules are in place and enforced. No children under a certain age can swim if they don't have a parent/responsible adult with them.

 

Most of our drownings of under 5 children occur in backyard swimming pools that are fenced by law-so fencing unfortunately does not prevent drownings.

 

 

Many times it is the entire backyard and not the pool only that is fenced. That is why many drownings occur. Also when get togethers happen and adults are distracted drownings are more likely to happen.

 

On cruiseships I think a combo of lifeguards and security would be better than a fence with a locked gate. I don't think it will be that long before Lifeguards are on all mainstream cruiselines, especially those that cater to families with children. I also predict that it will be a success in terms of fewer drowning and near drownings and less "stray" children in the pools. We will all wonder why it took so long and what all of the fuss was about.:)

Edited February 8, 2014 by Karysa

[Swampbabe]

Many times it is the entire backyard and not the pool only that is fenced. That is why many drownings occur. Also when get togethers happen and adults are distracted drownings are more likely to happen.

 

On cruiseships I think a combo of lifeguards and security would be better than a fence with a locked gate. I don't think it will be that long before Lifeguards are on all mainstream cruiselines, especially those that cater to families with children. I also predict that it will be a success in terms of fewer drowning and near drownings and less "stray" children in the pools. We will all wonder why it took so long and what all of the fuss was about.:)

 

FWIW, the entire backyard does not have to be fenced in any of the counties in Florida that I am familiar with, just the pool area. My yard is not fenced but my pool is. Some communities do not even allow full backyard fencing according to their HOAs.

[Karysa]

FWIW, the entire backyard does not have to be fenced in any of the counties in Florida that I am familiar with, just the pool area. My yard is not fenced but my pool is. Some communities do not even allow full backyard fencing according to their HOAs.

 

The pool area makes way more sense to me. My BIL has a lovely fenced backyard but between his 4 kids (3-10) in the playroom and the pool, there is only a sliding patio door and less than 40ft.

[Swampbabe]

The pool area makes way more sense to me. My BIL has a lovely fenced backyard but between his 4 kids (3-10) in the playroom and the pool, there is only a sliding patio door and less than 40ft.

 

We also have alarms on all the doors and windows that lead to the pool area, county code.

[cle-guy]

 

I don't think it will be that long before Lifeguards are on all mainstream cruiselines

 

I highly doubt that. The trend all over for the past couple decades in hotels, resorts, cruises, beaches anyplace, is to lose the lifeguards. This isn't to say ALL lifeguards are gone, but even in places where they are still, hours have been reduced, and number of staff has been reduced in many cases.

 

Having the lifeguard on duty adds a level if liability to the company that doesn't exist if they weren't on duty.

 

Without the lifeguard, they can post "swim at your own risk" signs and leave the liability with the passenger.

 

With a lifeguard if something happens, people will sue saying they were not doing their job and are liable for failing to do so. In essence the company has taken back responsibility to protect if they have a guard on duty. Why take that liability on.

 

Leave it with the individual and the family to protect themselves - personal responsibility.

[Karysa]

I highly doubt that. The trend all over for the past couple decades in hotels, resorts, cruises, beaches anyplace, is to lose the lifeguards. This isn't to say ALL lifeguards are gone, but even in places where they are still, hours have been reduced, and number of staff has been reduced in many cases.

 

Having the lifeguard on duty adds a level if liability to the company that doesn't exist if they weren't on duty.

 

Without the lifeguard, they can post "swim at your own risk" signs and leave the liability with the passenger.

 

With a lifeguard if something happens, people will sue saying they were not doing their job and are liable for failing to do so. In essence the company has taken back responsibility to protect if they have a guard on duty. Why take that liability on.

 

Leave it with the individual and the family to protect themselves - personal responsibility.

 

 

Personal responsibility is great for the over 12 crowd.( ok,(edit): should start as toddlers and progress with age) The drowning and near drowning victims in this case were passengers that weren't old enough to read the " swim at your own risk signs". I think as a society what we are doing to protect children is just not good enough.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Karysa

[babyher]

Personal responsibility is great for the over 12 crowd.( ok,(edit): should start as toddlers and progress with age) The drowning and near drowning victims in this case were passengers that weren't old enough to read the " swim at your own risk signs". I think as a society what we are doing to protect children is just not good enough.

 

 

 

Well if they are so young that they cannot read a "swim at your own risk" sign , then they should be with a parent or guardian who can read that sign , and then keep an eye on them.