Why no life guards??

[Charles4515]

 

Charles you have not responded to the fact that lifeguards will raise the liability and insurance costs for the cruise lines - and may do no good as parents could use them as "babysitters"

 

 

I have not responded to that because:

 

1). Despite the mantra from many about liability and insurance costs none has provided proof. And since the cruise lines are foreign flagged..... what is their liability? They don't apply many US laws. You know that NCL does not pay taxes? Or apply US labor regulations?

 

2). If it does raise the costs it would still be worth the costs of having lifeguards. I don't believe it would do no good. Nor that parents could use them as babysitters. The lifeguards would simply not allow children to use the pool if their guardians were not present. Like at our condo pool, the lifeguards enforce the rule that an adult must be present with any children. They enforce no children

( or adults) in diapers in the pool.

 

I am saddened at the bean counter position of many here. Human life is precious. Not one child or adult should drown at the pool because cost savings at the pool. The costs are well within the means of the cruise lines. The CEO of NCL got a 30% raise last year and makes close to a million and a half in annual salary.

 

I do believe the parents have a responsibility.....but so do the cruise lines! It is a shared responsibility.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Charles4515

[garycarla]

...

2). If it does raise the costs it would still be worth the costs of having lifeguards. I don't believe it would do no good. Nor that parents could use them as babysitters. The lifeguards would simply not allow children to use the pool if their guardians were not present. Like at our condo pool, the lifeguards enforce the rule that an adult must be present with any children. They enforce no children ....

 

I too have avoided the should or should not have lifeguard.

 

Even if 80% agreed with one side or the other, the argument or discussion will go on for years. And, just like picking an elected official, it is difficult to get much better than a 50/50 vote.

 

My two cents? I am in the camp that more parents will not pay attention and more accidents would take place. Ship's staff can only do so much to maintain the rules. It is different than a condo pool. Just is. Parents need to be in charge. And it would be good if society was such that other parents could step in and smack the crap out of parents that are not doing their job.

 

Just sayin.

[Irene7]

I should add cruiselines when speaking of Disney to be clearer. They have recently hired life guards. I think that this is a good decision and time will tell if it truly is.

 

ICAM! Also I have been watching the DCL rates since they added the lifeguards and have not noticed these predicted high increases when comparing the rates from months before added them.

[Irene7]

I too have avoided the should or should not have lifeguard.

 

Even if 80% agreed with one side or the other, the argument or discussion will go on for years. And, just like picking an elected official, it is difficult to get much better than a 50/50 vote.

 

My two cents? I am in the camp that more parents will not pay attention and more accidents would take place. Ship's staff can only do so much to maintain the rules. It is different than a condo pool. Just is. Parents need to be in charge. And it would be good if society was such that other parents could step in and smack the crap out of parents that are not doing their job.

 

Just sayin.

 

If these cruise lines would just toughen up like Princess then there would not be an issue. Princess has no problem putting these kids in their place along with the parents. I believe they call it Kid Security but could be wrong.

[Irene7]

I have not responded to that because:

 

1). Despite the mantra from many about liability and insurance costs none has provided proof. And since the cruise lines are foreign flagged..... what is their liability? They don't apply many US laws. You know that NCL does not pay taxes? Or apply US labor regulations?

 

2). If it does raise the costs it would still be worth the costs of having lifeguards. I don't believe it would do no good. Nor that parents could use them as babysitters. The lifeguards would simply not allow children to use the pool if their guardians were not present. Like at our condo pool, the lifeguards enforce the rule that an adult must be present with any children. They enforce no children

( or adults) in diapers in the pool.

 

I am saddened at the bean counter position of many here. Human life is precious. Not one child or adult should drown at the pool because cost savings at the pool. The costs are well within the means of the cruise lines. The CEO of NCL got a 30% raise last year and makes close to a million and a half in annual salary.

 

I do believe the parents have a responsibility.....but so do the cruise lines! It is a shared responsibility.

 

Excellent post Charles!!!

[Irene7]

They apparently are NOT at all pools all the time .

 

Charles you have not responded to the fact that lifeguards will raise the liability and insurance costs for the cruise lines - and may do no good as parents could use them as "babysitters"

 

not to mention - there are other hazards on board

 

Several "empowered" (non tipped) Kids security staff to enforce the rules (like on Princess) , a curfew....maybe more rules about age/height of kids in the deep pools - that would go a long way to helping.

Lifeguards won't stop kids from a hot tub/sauna predator, or stop them from falling over a railing or down stairs, or slip and fall while running etc

I saw a young teen on Carnival who was fall down drunk = in the teen club - he passed out -= we only saw him cause his new pals came running out of there at 2 am....we called security and they got him out of there, got medical staff up

 

there will be other accidents and incidents....lifeguards won't solve it

 

Enforcing some rules....the first time a family is "denied" use of the pool....or put off the ship - then you will see some changes IMHO

 

They are not at the adult pools but are at the family pools and bottom of the slides all the time. When the pool is open they are there even if there is no one in the water yet.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Irene7

[Karysa]

Agree 100%. All the more reason parents should be ever vigilant, especially when traveling.

 

We are all on the same page pretty much here believing that. I guess we are our experiences and people who have been blessed to go through childhood and adulthood unscathed think that there kids will as well.

[antsnanny]

We are just off the Breakaway so I have given a lot of thought this past week as to whether or not there should be lifeguards onboard cruise ships. I don't think one would hurt but personally, I would not trust another person watching my children by the pool. Will parents think they can wander off because there is a lifeguard on duty?

I was wondering if anyone thinks it would be a good idea if children under a certain age should have to wear a life vest if they are in the pool area?

[declansdad]

IMO, an incident of near drowning and 2 incidents of drowning (of children) on 3 different cruise lines suggests that there is a problem around cruise ship pools.

 

 

 

Given the number of cruise lines and ships on the water everyday, that is a pretty small number to conclude their is a problem on cruise ships.

[cle-guy]

Given the number of cruise lines and ships on the water everyday, that is a pretty small number to conclude their is a problem on cruise ships.

 

Good point. Actually the number of people who have fallen overboard and lost their lives is higher than drownings in ship pools.

 

Do we need to have a trampoline safety net put all around the ship to protect these folks too? Or assign a fall-over guard to each verandah?

[Karysa]

Good point. Actually the number of people who have fallen overboard and lost their lives is higher than drownings in ship pools.

 

Do we need to have a trampoline safety net put all around the ship to protect these folks too? Or assign a fall-over guard to each verandah?

 

KIDS???? Or are we talking about people drinking too much and making poor decisions and those committing suicide. If kids have fallen overboard then that is something to be concerned about indeed. Not allowing parents of children under say 8 to book a balcony cabin would be a first line defense but I have never read of one incident of a child falling overboard but I have read of drowning and near drownings of children in cruiseship pools over the last couple of years so that particular issue needs to be addressed IMO anyway.

[rhblake]

KIDS???? Or are we talking about people drinking too much and making poor decisions and those committing suicide. If kids have fallen overboard then that is something to be concerned about indeed. Not allowing parents of children under say 8 to book a balcony cabin would be a first line defense but I have never read of one incident of a child falling overboard but I have read of drowning and near drownings of children in cruiseship pools over the last couple of years so that particular issue needs to be addressed IMO anyway.

 

Statistics indicate there have only been 4 deaths (including the most current) by drowning on cruise ships since 1997 and another statistic indicates that there are 20+ million cruise passengers each year. Therefore it would appear that the chance of anyone dying by drowning while on a cruise is infinitesimal. From the same set of statistics there have been 57 deaths by falling over board.

[Karysa]

Statistics indicate there have only been 4 deaths (including the most current) by drowning on cruise ships since 1997 and another statistic indicates that there are 20+ million cruise passengers each year. Therefore it would appear that the chance of anyone dying by drowning while on a cruise is infinitesimal. From the same set of statistics there have been 57 deaths by falling over board.

 

Kids???

[antsnanny]

Quote feature not working right now ...

but ...to Charles

 

not so simple to hire lifeguards....as stated so many different pools, water venues...."kids only"?? well good luck keeping them out as people don't follow rules....plus the real danger is that 1) parents would have false sense security and let the lifeguards babysit and 2) God forbid another drowning - then huge lawsuits as with lifeguards they are liable...this could truly raise fares, and change the way cruise is run - like closed pools, short hours, clear the decks

 

To Katya - it seems to me you are simply afraid to be on a cruise with a tragedy, the odds are pretty much in your favor since millions cruise

far more likely to see a medivac for an older person - sad but yes not so devastating as child tragedy

 

however....the cost is not viable IMHO - and not do -able -Disney is already more expensive..and it appears they only have limited lifeguard coverage anyhow

 

Chances are kids can get into other trouble - predators, slip and fall, fall down stairs, over a railing , fall into the atrium etc, goofing around and get hurt......kid security would help to prevent that. A system of finding the parent of any kid alone under? say 13 or? A good curfew for all under 18, and warnings to the parents.

 

The cost of kid security would be minimal and would NOT leave cruise lines open to liabilty = they are there to enforce rules not to keep kids from drowning. However in the long run they could prevent drowning (and other accidents) simply by enforcing the "no unattended child" rule.

 

I totally agree with your kid security idea, it would hold the parents or guardian responsible. I was on the BA last week and what happened effected every passenger onboard, some more than others as for me I still can't shake it.. If those two little boys had been supervised by a loved one there is no way they would have been anywhere near a pool where the water was over their heads let alone the fact that it was very windy which was making waves in the pool at the time. I think kids security would hold parents accountable for their own children.

[rhblake]

Kids???

 

Of the 4 drownings 3 were kids. I don’t know the make-up of those who fell overboard.

 

Are you indicating that a kids’ life is important than an adults' life?

[Charles4515]

Good point. Actually the number of people who have fallen overboard and lost their lives is higher than drownings in ship pools.

 

Do we need to have a trampoline safety net put all around the ship to protect these folks too? Or assign a fall-over guard to each verandah?

 

Actually we do need man overboard detection systems on ships. They detect when anyone goes overboard. Such do exist and have already been mandated by Congress. They have yet to be installed because the cruise lines either say they are evaluating the systems, or that they are not reliable. Too many false positives. There is some dispute to that and I don't know the truth of the matter if the systems are ready but it's coming.

[cle-guy]

I have not responded to that because:

 

Despite the mantra from many about liability and insurance costs none has provided proof. And since the cruise lines are foreign flagged..... what is their liability? They don't apply many US laws. You know that NCL does not pay taxes? Or apply US labor regulations?

 

or

 

Actually we do need man overboard detection systems on ships. They detect when anyone goes overboard. Such do exist and have already been mandated by Congress. They have yet to be installed because the cruise lines either say they are evaluating the systems, or that they are not reliable. Too many false positives. There is some dispute to that and I don't know the truth of the matter if the systems are ready but it's coming.

 

Which is correct? Subject to US laws or Not subject to US laws?

[Charles4515]

or

 

 

 

Which is correct? Subject to US laws or Not subject to US laws?

 

Subject to some US laws.....

 

The post you are quoting was asking a question. Not giving any answer. I don't think it is difficult to see the question marks. I don't know what their liability is. Just to say it is a liability question does not make it true. I asked for proof. Also while congress has mandated the man overboard system, the cruise lines have not done it so maybe they think they don't have to abide by it.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Charles4515

[rvsullivan]

I'm sure that when there is a law in place that mandates a man overboard alarm, every U.S. flagged passenger ship will comply.

I hate to think how many times a ship will have to turn around and perform a search after a pelican or seagull flies close by?

How many have fallen overboard without help, pushed or doing crazy things while drunk? Close the swimming pools, eliminate all balconies and put up steel walls anywhere a passenger can reach. Should make it all safe for the "nanny state".

Responsibility, where has it gone?:eek:

[cruiseapril]

JMO- As a career teacher, mother, and trained lifeguard, I agree with those who say we need more security by the pools, including lifeguards. Lifeguards can be identified as security guards or youth security guards.

 

One drowning of a young child, on a cruise ship or anywhere else, is unacceptable. Two drownings of young children and one near-drowning- on three different cruise lines- is reason, IMO, to step up security around the cruise pools. Pool rules need to be enforced.

 

Parents & other caretakers need to be supervising 24/7- however, if they are not doing this, the cruise lines need to make sure they do -as the drownings of young children in cruise ship pools is just unacceptable.

 

Teachers do not look at children as statistics. Children should not become

accident statistics on cruise ships. This is quite different from adults falling overboard. Adults are responsible for their behavior, children are learning

behavior. It is a long process for some children-as we all know. Parents are responsible for the behavior of their children under 18. (This is stated in most cruise documents.)

 

Children drowning in cruise pools and adults falling overboard are not in the same category for comparison. Neither should happen- but young children deserve to be protected if their parents are not protecting them.

 

Whatever it takes to prevent another child from drowning on a cruise ship should be done.

[cruiseapril]

A quick note to those who are being sarcastic- this issue is too serious for sarcasm.

 

In all of our years of cruising, we have not encountered an issue, on a cruise ship, as serious as children drowning in cruise pools.

[sharecruises]

JMO- As a career teacher, mother, and trained lifeguard, I agree with those who say we need more security by the pools, including lifeguards. Lifeguards can be identified as security guards or youth security guards.

 

One drowning of a young child, on a cruise ship or anywhere else, is unacceptable. Two drownings of young children and one near-drowning- on three different cruise lines- is reason, IMO, to step up security around the cruise pools. Pool rules need to be enforced.

 

Parents & other caretakers need to be supervising 24/7- however, if they are not doing this, the cruise lines need to make sure they do -as the drownings of young children in cruise ship pools is just unacceptable.

 

Teachers do not look at children as statistics. Children should not become

accident statistics on cruise ships. This is quite different from adults falling overboard. Adults are responsible for their behavior, children are learning

behavior. It is a long process for some children-as we all know. Parents are responsible for the behavior of their children under 18. (This is stated in most cruise documents.)

 

Children drowning in cruise pools and adults falling overboard are not in the same category for comparison. Neither should happen- but young children deserve to be protected if their parents are not protecting them.

 

Whatever it takes to prevent another child from drowning on a cruise ship should be done.

 

 

Sorry but we do NOT need lifeguards...we just need stricter rules, enforced by NON tipped employees. Lifeguards give false sense of security and only cover the pools. If ever a tragedy occurs - the legal liability would be huge because they had lifeguards

 

Kid security - for lack of a better term - would solve the problem and other dangerous things kids get into. Put in a curfew - have the kid security stop and hold any young kid on their own and page/call the parents - give a warning...if not followed - limit their access to stuff on ship or confine to cabin or put off the ship

 

Let that happen a few times and you won't see more tragedies occur -

there have been other things too - a molester in a spa area - kids fall down a staircase, kids drinking booze etc

 

Lifeguards and "kid security" are two different concepts. Along with "kid security" - make strict rule about age in certain pools...haul the kids out of there, don't let them in - that would have solved the whole problem

[Swampbabe]

For those of you advocating for lifeguards, especially those who are trained, where would you put the chairs and what type of schedule would you run? 15 min on and 15 off? Two or three lifeguards for each pool? I would think that there would some liability for the safety of the lifeguards in the chairs in rough seas.

[SissasMomE]

nevermind.

Edited February 10, 2014 by SissasMomE

[kirsty_r]

For those of you advocating for lifeguards, especially those who are trained, where would you put the chairs and what type of schedule would you run? 15 min on and 15 off? Two or three lifeguards for each pool? I would think that there would some liability for the safety of the lifeguards in the chairs in rough seas.

 

when I was working as a lifeguard we only ever worked 10 minutes in 1 location. i certainly wouldn't want to be sat in that chair or patrolling the poolside in rough seas...