extra added tax and gratuity

[hawkeyetlse]

Just thinking out loud but I wonder if this was NOT advised to you in writing beforehand, if there is not a breach of one European consumer law along the road.

 

It's in writing in the terms and conditions and on the flyers for the UBP and other packages. They always say something like "purchase price will include applicable taxes". That is totally useless for potential purchasers, but it probably satisfies their legal obligations.

 

I agree with you about the lack of transparency, I have complained about it myself in previous discussions of this topic.

[Froggitt]

Interesting.

 

Just thinking out loud but I wonder if this was NOT advised to you in writing beforehand, if there is not a breach of one European consumer law along the road.

Its a breach of European consumer law by quoting ex-VAT prices on menus etc. Should be inc-VAT. This is not the good ole US of A, where sales taxes are always added on to the ticket price.

[anniegb]

It's in writing in the terms and conditions and on the flyers for the UBP and other packages. They always say something like "purchase price will include applicable taxes". That is totally useless for potential purchasers, but it probably satisfies their legal obligations.

 

I agree with you about the lack of transparency, I have complained about it myself in previous discussions of this topic.

 

Aah but in this instance the UBP does NOT include all applicable taxes.

 

Annie

[anniegb]

Its a breach of European consumer law by quoting ex-VAT prices on menus etc. Should be inc-VAT. This is not the good ole US of A, where sales taxes are always added on to the ticket price.

 

Have I got this right a US company operating in EU is collecting a EU tax and not advising customers of this beforehand??

 

Interesting.

 

Annie

[Jofishes]

it is there in the terms and conditions but it is very vague as to the actual amount and when it will be charged for example we're on a cruise from Barcelona over to the canary islands and my understanding is VAT will only be charged whilst in Spanish EU waters of Barcelona and Malaga but exactly when the VAT will end on day one as we depart Barcelona and start being charged again as we approach Malaga then goodness knows

 

it says this on the UK site under the UBP details

 

Please note that we charge 18% gratuity and on cruises from/to Spain and Italy

we are required to charge an additional VAT

[anniegb]

it is there in the terms and conditions but it is very vague as to the actual amount and when it will be charged for example we're on a cruise from Barcelona over to the canary islands and my understanding is VAT will only be charged whilst in Spanish EU waters of Barcelona and Malaga but exactly when the VAT will end on day one as we depart Barcelona and start being charged again as we approach Malaga then goodness knows

 

it says this on the UK site under the UBP details

 

Please note that we charge 18% gratuity and on cruises from/to Spain and Italy

we are required to charge an additional VAT

 

Thanks for that.

 

Annie

[GEORGET]

Its a breach of European consumer law by quoting ex-VAT prices on menus etc. Should be inc-VAT. This is not the good ole US of A, where sales taxes are always added on to the ticket price.

 

I agree mentioned this on P&O AND RCCL was told it was the Spainish and Italian that added this tax.

The real reason is that they would have to change the price of every item on board, plus the menu's just because the ship remains for the total cruise in EU waters.

Nobody has taken them to court over this.

 

This VAT applies to ALL SHIPS docking in there ports or remaining in EU waters

 

NCL FAQ SITE

What about tipping?

You will have either pre-paid the service charge on your holiday invoice or it will be charged to your on-board account. In addition, a suggested gratuity of 18% on drink bills, dining options, which are not inlcuded in the cruise fare and on spa and salon bills will be added automatically and charged to your on-board account. Click here to find out more.

 

Shopping on-board - tax & duty-free

With the exception of Hawai'i itineraries, our on-board stores carry tax- and duty-free items like liquor, tobacco, fragrances and cosmetics, as well as casual beach and cruising apparel. You’ll also find designer watches, stunning pieces of jewellery and more. Please note that in order to comply with Spanish and Italian tax regulations we are required to charge Spanish and Italian VAT on applicable retail items purchased on board on cruises from/to Barcelona and from/to Venice and Rome, as well as on all other cruises whilst the ship is in Spanish and Italian waters.

 

IF you pre purchase any package it does not include this VAT so it is added to your bill onboard.

we had the UBP and in Barcelona only the VAT appeared on our statement , the same in Malaga, this was because the ship left EU waters, if it had remained in the EU it would have been charged the whole cruise.

now that 10% from Spain could add up.

 

the vat was charged while we were docked and seemed to be lifted after the ship was at sea, could be when the pilot leaves.

 

 

One thing not mentioned by NCL is that if the ship stays permanatly in EU the Duty free shop is closed on ship and on land.

since being caught twice have picked ships that are all inclusive or visit one port outside EU

j

Edited March 22, 2015 by GEORGET

[Froggitt]

The real reason is that they would have to change the price of every item on board, plus the menu's just because the ship remains for the total cruise in EU waters.

So? That's part and parcel of operating in the EU. There are EU rules. You abide by them or you get prosecuted.

 

Its a bit like NCL deciding to sell alcohol to 18 year olds on US cruises.....just because they want to......they wouldn't do that because its against the law of the country the are operating in.....VAT legislation is no different.

 

I have also never seen a VAT invoice (like a hotel would give you on departure) or VAT numbers for every country they are remitting VAT to.

[Froggitt]

Have I got this right a US company operating in EU is collecting a EU tax and not advising customers of this beforehand??

 

Interesting.

 

Annie

As above, they have some weasel words on the bottom of the menu, but they are irrelevant......AFAIK they need to show the prices on the menu inclusive of VAT, and also show the VAT number of the country they are collecting VAT on behalf of. They don't do either. Someone's going to jail.

[Cauzneffct]

I cant afford to eat in the speciality restaurant !!!!!!!!!!!!!! not now they have put the extra 3% on drinks :D

 

If you spend $1000 at the bar, the 3% increase costs you $30. If that breaks your bank, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Demonyte]

That option is not open to non-North American cruisers. If Europeans cancel, we forfeit deposits.

 

 

Absolutely incorrect, it doesn't matter where you live. I am European and have never lost a deposit when cancelling before final payment. You need to shop smarter if you have that kind of restrictions with your bookings.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Demonyte

[Froggitt]

If you book via the ncl.co.uk site, you lose your deposit if you cancel.

[fabnfortysomething]

Absolutely incorrect, it doesn't matter where you live. I am European and have never lost a deposit when cancelling before final payment. You need to shop smarter if you have that kind of restrictions with your bookings.

 

presumably you have found a way to book on the US site where you don't lose deposits or can take advantage of price drops

 

In the UK if you book direct with NCL or via travel agent the UK site defaults where you lose deposit if cancelled before final payment

 

I have tried to use the US site but cant get around the restriction you need to enter a US address

[glittergal1]

Some people just have no sense of humour cauzneffct

Edited March 22, 2015 by glittergal1

[Demonyte]

presumably you have found a way to book on the US site where you don't lose deposits or can take advantage of price drops

...

I have tried to use the US site but cant get around the restriction you need to enter a US address

 

Over the years I've booked cruises through a PCC at NCL, directly on NCL website and for some years now mainly with a TA in US, have had no problems what so ever. I did the last booking for my friend (also Finnish) through the US website on Jan 31st without any hitches or restrictions.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Demonyte

[glittergal1]

How do you get on the US website ? my computer always goes to the UK website even when I type the US address

[Demonyte]

How do you get on the US website ? my computer always goes to the UK website even when I type the US address

 

By going to any subpage - for example http://www.ncl.com/vacations

[KeithJenner]

How do you get on the US website ? my computer always goes to the UK website even when I type the US address

 

 

You need to avoid the home page.

 

I usually do a search for something like "Norwegian epic deck plans" and follow that link. It takes you to the U.S. Site.

[insanemagnet]

UBP pre-pay: includes drinks and 18% on package price at booking upfront. You get charged 10% VAT to onboard account where applicable.

 

VAT is calculated on the 'consideration' of the goods or services (Article 73 of the Principal VAT Directive 2006/112/EC).

 

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32006L0112&from=EN

 

The 'consideration' is the amount that actually you pay for the UDP, not a theoretical amount on a menu for an individual drink. So if the UDP is €54 per day, then the VAT amount is $5.40* (or $6.37 if the 18% service charge is compulsory).

 

*Strictly speaking the $54 should be inclusive of VAT, so the service charge should be 1/11 at $4.90, not an additional 10% on the 'consideration' of the $54.

 

So it doesn't matter if you have a single $1 menu price drink, or drink yourself under the table with $500 of drinks, the VAT charge MUST only be $5.40 (or $6.37) per day. If NCL tell you anything else, they are cheating you.

 

For those that got the UDP included in the cruise price as a promotion, there is NO VAT to pay, as you have not paid anything for the drinks, the same as you have not paid for meals in the MDR in the ticket price. You have paid for passenger transport when you bought your cruise ticket. If NCL tell you anything else, they are cheating you.

Edited March 22, 2015 by insanemagnet

[Single Cruiser]

VAT is calculated on the 'consideration' of the goods or services (Article 73 of the Principal VAT Directive 2006/112/EC).

 

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32006L0112&from=EN

 

The 'consideration' is the amount that actually you pay for the UDP, not a theoretical amount on a menu for an individual drink. So if the UDP is €54 per day, then the VAT amount is $5.40* (or $6.37 if the 18% service charge is compulsory).

 

*Strictly speaking the $54 should be inclusive of VAT, so the service charge should be 1/11 at $4.90, not an additional 10% on the 'consideration' of the $54.

 

So it doesn't matter if you have a single $1 menu price drink, or drink yourself under the table with $500 of drinks, the VAT charge MUST only be $5.40 (or $6.37) per day. If NCL tell you anything else, they are cheating you.

 

For those that got the UDP included in the cruise price as a promotion, there is NO VAT to pay, as you have not paid anything for the drinks, the same as you have not paid for meals in the MDR in the ticket price. You have paid for passenger transport when you bought your cruise ticket. If NCL tell you anything else, they are cheating you.

 

Well Im just back from NCL Spirit , prepaid UBP and was charged VAT onboard for the drinks I consumed in Spanish waters

[insanemagnet]

Well Im just back from NCL Spirit , prepaid UBP and was charged VAT onboard for the drinks I consumed in Spanish waters

 

Then you were cheated by NCL if they added VAT to the notional drink prices.

[Guindalf]

Sorry, Insanemagnet, but you are wrong. The UBP (not UDP, that's the dining package) does NOT include the VAT on a per-drink basis. The bill you get is not for a zero amount, it has the price, plus gratuity and tax on it and is zeroed when it is charged to your account. This means that the VAT IS payable where applicable.

 

The main reason it is not included in the drink price is that the menus are printed fleet-wide with standard pricing and tax is not due everywhere. In our case, we were on the Dawn sailing out of New Orleans and tax was due while we were in Louisiana coastal waters and nowhere else on that trip. Ships may sail totally within EU waters where the VAT would be due for the entire sailing, but it would be seasonal and when that particular vessel relocated, it may be somewhere that is not subject to the same tax (Alaska, some US ports, etc.).

 

We got hit with about $5.00 in taxes for the first night, so hardly enough to complain about!

Edited March 22, 2015 by Guindalf

[insanemagnet]

Sorry, Insanemagnet, but you are wrong. The UBP (not UDP, that's the dining package) does NOT include the VAT on a per-drink basis. The bill you get is not for a zero amount, it has the price, plus gratuity and tax on it and is zeroed when it is charged to your account. This means that the VAT IS payable where applicable.

 

The main reason it is not included in the drink price is that the menus are printed fleet-wide with standard pricing and tax is not due everywhere.

 

Sorry, typo in previous message, referring to UDP when of course it is the UBP.

 

The point is that there are three situations for ships sailing on cruises from Spain, and it is not clear that NCL are applying them correctly.

 

1. Drinks bought as no UBP. Then VAT should be included in whatever the menu price is (including any compulsory service charge). It doesn't matter that the menus are printed fleet wide, that is NCL's problem. However whether it is an inclusive price or added on top, VAT should be calculated on a per drink price.

 

2. UBP paid for (and it doesn't matter before boarding or after). VAT should be calculated on the daily UBP charge, not the theoretical drink price which isn't being paid. Whatever appears on the drinks bill is irrelevant, as either NCL charge the customer nothing (treating the UBP charge as they should as inclusive), or at worst, $5.40 per day irrespective how many drinks were drunk.

 

3. UBP included in the cruise price. No VAT is due, as no drinks are being bought. What has been paid for is transport for the cruise. Whatever appears on the drinks bill is irrelevant, as no VAT is due from either the customer or NCL.

Edited March 22, 2015 by insanemagnet

[rochelle_s]

Sorry, typo in previous message, referring to UDP when of course it is the UBP.

 

The point is that there are three situations for ships sailing on cruises from Spain, and it is not clear that NCL are applying them correctly.

 

1. Drinks bought as no UBP. Then VAT should be included in whatever the menu price is (including any compulsory service charge). It doesn't matter that the menus are printed fleet wide, that is NCL's problem. However whether it is an inclusive price or added on top, VAT should be calculated on a per drink price.

 

2. UBP paid for (and it doesn't matter before boarding or after). VAT should be calculated on the daily UBP charge, not the theoretical drink price which isn't being paid. Whatever appears on the drinks bill is irrelevant, as either NCL charge the customer nothing (treating the UBP charge as they should as inclusive), or at worst, $5.40 per day irrespective how many drinks were drunk.

 

3. UBP included in the cruise price. No VAT is due, as no drinks are being bought. What has been paid for is transport for the cruise. Whatever appears on the drinks bill is irrelevant, as no VAT is due from either the customer or NCL.

 

This is very interesting especially point #3.

 

In May we will be doing a B2B on the Jade and one of those weeks the ship does not leave the EU. Next March we will be doing B2B on the Epic and one of those 10 day segments does not leave the EU. For all legs we have chosen the UBP as part of the promotion. Based on package price alone what you are saying in post #3 would save us $75.60 this May and $108 next March.

 

Do you know anywhere online I can go to research this further?

 

Your point #2 makes sense to me that you only pay the VAT on the purchase price. If you drink over the value of the package why would you be subjected to paying extra tax when you have not purchased anything more?

 

If you purchase the UBP or pay as you go for beverages and are subject to the VAT are you then able to claim it back when you leave the country?

 

Also am I to understand that the VAT is applicable for beverage purchases but not on the purchase of specialty dining? If this is true do you know why the differentiation?

 

Thanks for your insight

 

 

Rochelle

[Guindalf]

There's really no point in arguing the law here as none of us actually know what it is and how it's applied to cruise ships.

 

One thing I can say with pretty much absolute certainty is that NCL has a team of lawyers that will make sure that everything is legal and above board, so discussing it here and making assumptions is ludicrous as it will not resolve anything.