Convoluted/deceptive promotion? - need help

[jennyfromtheculdesac]

One last question (maybe, maybe not) for you seasoned cruisers. Long story, NCL's website states in more than one place "automatically get free or half price 3rd and 4th stateroom guests plus apply any promo code". That's directly from their website before the cabin selection screen (I've even screen shot multiple screens) a normal person would assume that means if the first and second passenger in an inside stateroom are being charged $829 a piece, the third should be $414.50, to sleep in a bunk hanging off the wall, right? No. The third person is being charged $999.50. I've been on the phone with NCL all this morning up the line to be told that the promotion is always off of their rack room rates, and that the third and fourth person always pay a different fare from first and second. In this case, from what she explained to me, the first and second passengers were already discounted and the $999 is based off of some elusive (my word, not hers) rack rate. Nowhere on their website are there disclaimers for that or any explanations. I think I really ticked her off when I said it was borderline deceptive advertising. I screen shot all of the promotions too which show no disclaimers. Does this sound wrong to anyone but me? Of course it's a last minute cruise and it's the last three person cabin on the ship and they have me. I need to book by today but where should I go to complain? Or am I wasting my time and energy?

[SissasMomE]

Complain about what? The rate is the rate. The 3rd / 4th always increases as the ship fills. Nothing to complain about.

[Alegeeter]

Third and fourth passenger rates always vary and are different from the first and second passenger rates, and often depend on how fully booked your specific sailing is at the time you are looking to book. Usually these rates are less than the first and second. But with this promotion it seems that NCL hiked up the third and fourth passenger prices so that with 1/2 off, you're really not getting any kind of deal. So in a way it's deceptive since these rates aren't easily found, but it's technically not wrong or a scam. I think the KSF promo is really only a steal if you find a sailing that's actually 3rd/4th sailing FREE, and not 1/2 off - that's what we did and we saved $1000!

[Demonyte]

Or am I wasting my time and energy?

 

Yes. As said by others, price of 1st and 2nd passengers does not relate to 3rd and up passengers' price. Nothing deceptive here.

[Cruise4Real]

Does this sound wrong to anyone but me? Of course it's a last minute cruise and it's the last three person cabin on the ship and they have me. I need to book by today but where should I go to complain? Or am I wasting my time and energy?

 

Of course it's borderline deceptive. Or maybe worse. It's literally absurd that in the context of Kids Sail Half Price that the kids wind up costing MORE than the first two passengers. To answer your question, yes it sounds UTTERLY WRONG to me.

 

However, I do think you're wasting your time and energy trying to fight this. Either pay what they demand or do something else with your money.

[watchdiva]

Why would you book when you clearly are already unhappy with NCL? Nothing deceptive here at all. The rate is what the rate is. When you start by asserting deceptive practices then odds are that you may not have a happy experience....

[Cruise4Real]

Third and fourth passenger rates always vary and are different from the first and second passenger rates, and often depend on how fully booked your specific sailing is at the time you are looking to book. Usually these rates are less than the first and second. But with this promotion it seems that NCL hiked up the third and fourth passenger prices so that with 1/2 off, you're really not getting any kind of deal. So in a way it's deceptive since these rates aren't easily found, but it's technically not wrong or a scam. I think the KSF promo is really only a steal if you find a sailing that's actually 3rd/4th sailing FREE, and not 1/2 off - that's what we did and we saved $1000!

 

"Rack rate" makes it sound like it's set in stone, like it's an invariant rate.

 

I think, however, that (as you suggest) the truth is that "rack rate" does vary, for the same ship/date, over time. If NCL is able to increase "rack rate" in order to make the 3rd/4th passenger "half-off" rate greater, I think we're at least heading toward "deceptive practices," if not there already.

[abbyar]

If you price out the higher priced cabins, you'll find it the other way though. For instance, if I price out our upcoming cruise on the Gem, the offer is 3/4th guests for 1/2 off. The first 2 suite guests are $2249 each, the 3/4th are $499.50.

[SissasMomE]

Of course it's borderline deceptive. Or maybe worse. It's literally absurd that in the context of Kids Sail Half Price that the kids wind up costing MORE than the first two passengers. To answer your question, yes it sounds UTTERLY WRONG to me.

 

However, I do think you're wasting your time and energy trying to fight this. Either pay what they demand or do something else with your money.

 

Prior to switching to two cabins, I had 3 people in one cabin. Under the 1/2 price offer, passenger number 3 was $349. How on earth is that deceptive? LOL You cannot book last minute and expect to get a rock bottom low rate - not with more than 2 in a cabin.

[NEW 2 CRUISIN]

I got a chuckle out of a recent flyer that Royal Caribbean sent to the house, which was actually quite transparent about the promotional offer:

 

It was clear that the Cruise line wants to make a certain $$$ price per cabin.

If that price is $2,000, the print add might say (for example)

"CRUISE FARES FROM $499 PER PERSON".

 

Of course....that is IF 4 people are in the cabin -- each will AVERAGE OUT to be $499/person.

If there are only 2 people in the cabin, the Cruise Fare is then "FROM" $999/Person, so they get the same $2,000 per cabin they wanted to begin with.

 

In the Marketing Illusion known as "3rd/4th Person 1/2 OFF", in my scenario, the 1st-4th persons in the same cabin would all be $499 per person.....which is HALF OFF the 2 person starting price of $999/person.

 

The other way to do it, which is equally as "sexy" for Marketing Departments, is to charge the first 2 people in a cabin $999 and let the 3rd and 4th in FREE.

 

Same result!

Edited May 13, 2015 by NEW 2 CRUISIN

[luvtheships]

It's 3/4 pax off the "brochure" rate which no one ever pays anyway

 

I was looking at the ba for June but because of the fact that the deal is really not good at all we decided to do Disneyworld again as they gave me a good promo plus more of my family will be able to join us

 

Bottom line.... Ba to Bermuda in summer is $$$$ regardless of any so called deals

 

The first week of sept does have a true kids sail free ( any age btw) promo if you can afford for them to miss school

 

Otherwise it's pay the price or look for a different cruise that is a true ksf

 

As I have 2 college kids at the moment we have been doing the longer January cruises for dirt cheap...ba jan 15 for an inside triple $2150 total

 

Gem jan 16 for an inside triple $1798 total

 

The above includes port and tax but not dsc

 

The thing about jan cruises for us is that the younger kid stays behind as does the 20 something kid. So does dh.... But hey they grow too fast and I'm grabbing time with the college kids wherever possible....and we are having a blast!!!!!

 

Fwiw and IMHO ncl is using that 3/4 half off deal/scam to attract newbie cruisers that are none the wiser....kudos to you for catching it but bottom line is ba to Bermuda in high season is costly....and probably why we may never do it

 

 

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[luvtheships]

If you price out the higher priced cabins, you'll find it the other way though. For instance, if I price out our upcoming cruise on the Gem, the offer is 3/4th guests for 1/2 off. The first 2 suite guests are $2249 each, the 3/4th are $499.50.

 

It's the gem... It's an older ship which I happen to like....plus it's not the highly coveted Bermuda run in the summer.

 

 

I bet if you find out the 3:4 pax brochure rate you will find its $1000 which of course no one ever pays anyway

 

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Edited May 13, 2015 by luvtheships

[jennyfromtheculdesac]

Wow. A quick trip to the grocery store to get my kids' lunches and I come back to a bunch of replies. Thanks!

 

Yes, at the end of the day I have to own the fact that my lack of knowledge of cruise pricing is most likely costing me more money. The supervisor had me shaking she was so rude to me, and I was escalating as was she until I finally had to hang up. I know I'm not getting anywhere here, and I'm between a rock and a hard place. If I want to go, I'm paying $3200 for three people in a 135 sq foot room and that's about it. I do agree with a few people, and what I was trying to explain to the supervisor I was talking to, that they do not publish their "standard" rates for the third and fourth passengers. So when they blanket state that third and fourth passengers automatically sale half off, with no *** and fine print which is usual and customary in advertising, one's general assumption is it's half off the first and second passenger fare. Not half off of some unpublished rate that you can't find anywhere unless you call which leads one to believe that the rates are made up as they go along, which seems to be standard practice with cruise lines as I'm learning. Celebrity's rate yesterday was 65% off the third passenger but the room was an outside balcony and the total price for two rooms was over $1000 more than our two rooms for Norwegian.

 

Just venting here. The NCL rep I was talking to didn't help matters at all as she started out on the defensive. I'm actually quite pleasant to deal with, but don't start right away with an attitude with me!

 

Thank you again for all your input.

[cliffd64]

There IS a confusing part about the NCL website...

 

When you price out a trip for 3 or 4 people, it will take the total cost and divide by the number of passengers and show you the per person cost. So, like in our case, if you have 4 people in the room, and the total cost is let's say $4000, then it will say the per person cost is $1000. Until you actually look at the details, you wont see the actual breakdown for passengers 3 and 4... Therefore you are mislead into thinking that the passenger 1 and 2 are always $1000 and you're not getting a break for 3 and 4. Online it spreads the discounts afforded to passengers 3 and 4 across all 4 passengers to give you an average per person price.

 

In the example above, with the promotions it might be that passengers 1 and 2 are $1500 per person and passengers 3 and 4 are $500 per person, which totals to the same $4000 total cost. You just have to keep in mind that until you see the confirmation summary, the price per person is an average.

[jennyfromtheculdesac]

There IS a confusing part about the NCL website...

 

When you price out a trip for 3 or 4 people, it will take the total cost and divide by the number of passengers and show you the per person cost. So, like in our case, if you have 4 people in the room, and the total cost is let's say $4000, then it will say the per person cost is $1000. Until you actually look at the details, you wont see the actual breakdown for passengers 3 and 4... Therefore you are mislead into thinking that the passenger 1 and 2 are always $1000 and you're not getting a break for 3 and 4. Online it spreads the discounts afforded to passengers 3 and 4 across all 4 passengers to give you an average per person price.

 

In the example above, with the promotions it might be that passengers 1 and 2 are $1500 per person and passengers 3 and 4 are $500 per person, which totals to the same $4000 total cost. You just have to keep in mind that until you see the confirmation summary, the price per person is an average.

 

Thanks. In this case, our inside stateroom passengers 1 and 2 were $829 each. Passenger 3 was $999.50. I think that's where I started going off my rocker on the NCL woman when I asked her if their published rate to sleep hanging off a wall in an inside 135 square foot box was $2000. But to be fair to me, she wasn't the most pleasant person to begin with!

Edited May 13, 2015 by jennyfromtheculdesac

[luvtheships]

To the op

 

You have some choices here:

 

If you truly want Bermuda look at pricing out the cheapest cabins and possibly avoid 3/4 fares by getting 2 cabins or more ( I forgot how many in your group sorry) plus more room for all of you

 

If you just want to cruise out of NYC then do look into the gem. It's smaller and not at all as fancy as the ba nor does it offer as much in activity and entertainment choice also the Nassau (atlantis) and pc (Disney) )ports could wind up costing you a bundle whereas beaching and snorkeling in Bermuda would be less costly I feel

 

As I said previously, we want to do Bermuda but its too expensive

 

Also there is a real risk of being diverted to Canada or Florida if you are in the path of a hurricane and that's also why the late June into early August cruises are so expensive as there could be but who knows these days less of a chance encounter with a hurricane and the outlying weeks less expensive because the chances are greater of hurricanes Also its still on the cool side in Bermuda in may and early June waterwise so that's cheaper too. But no hurricanes threats at that time

 

We were caught up in Frances in 2004 on the dcl magic aug 28 cruise out of pc which I booked because of the lower price

 

Well 7 days turned into 11!!! All sunny and warm btw as dcl had to keep us out if harms way

 

We never made it back to pc since the port was destroyed and debarked in fll. Thankfully JetBlue added planes and we got home the same day but dcl knew not all pax could so the offered transport to Disney plus free everything for a couple days until flights were available

 

Air Canada didn't show up for 3 days!!!

 

 

 

 

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Edited May 13, 2015 by luvtheships

[hawkeyetlse]

Third and fourth passenger rates always vary and are different from the first and second passenger rates, and often depend on how fully booked your specific sailing is at the time you are looking to book. Usually these rates are less than the first and second. But with this promotion it seems that NCL hiked up the third and fourth passenger prices so that with 1/2 off, you're really not getting any kind of deal. So in a way it's deceptive since these rates aren't easily found, but it's technically not wrong or a scam. I think the KSF promo is really only a steal if you find a sailing that's actually 3rd/4th sailing FREE, and not 1/2 off - that's what we did and we saved $1000!

Based on what you just explained, how do you know how much you saved? You say that the rack rates for passenger 3/4 aren't easily found: How did you find them for your sailing?

[Kingofwylietx]

It's all marketing. For most of the cruises I've checked, no matter what cruise line, there is a certain price they want for the cabin. They might play with the prices so they can advertise free 3rd or 4th passengers or 1/2 off kids....it still works out to about the same total $$$ per cabin.

 

All the mainstream cruise lines do this. Is it misleading? Yes.

 

Now, compare that to the dealership ad you see on tv about the brand new vehicle they are giving $30,000 off sticker price or will sell to you for only $99 a month.

 

As a consumer, you need to realize these things. They are all gimmicks, but we are bombarded by them daily.

 

You'll just waste your time and energy to fight it. If you like their price, book it. If you don't like the price (no matter how it's calculated), keep searching for different cruise. You'll find something that matches up with your expectations.

[luddite]

As we get older and experienced, we are able to wade through advertising hype.

The phrase " You could save up to 70% or more." also means that you can pay double bust-out retail and they haven't lied about what you paid.

[Cruise4Real]

Prior to switching to two cabins, I had 3 people in one cabin. Under the 1/2 price offer, passenger number 3 was $349. How on earth is that deceptive? LOL You cannot book last minute and expect to get a rock bottom low rate - not with more than 2 in a cabin.

 

Fine, so there's TWO "deceptions" at work.

 

The first is the obvious one: calling 3rd/4th passengers "50% off," when almost ANYBODY confronting such language for the first time out is going to believe that's 50% off the only prices they have the ability to see: the brochure or website rate (for 1st/2nd passengers). Instead it's 50% off some imaginary other rate that NCL calls "rack rate."

 

Which brings us to the second "deception," which is the use of that term "rack rate." As I've already said that conjures up a vision of an invariant rate set in stone somewhere. Yet, as many here (including you, with your "you cannot book last minute and expect to get a rock bottom low rate") suggest, that rate is NOT set in stone and in fact varies over time and perhaps due to the ship filling up.

 

If NCL has full control over the "rack rate" and can change it at any time, and hikes it in response to the ship filling up, I will say again, that's headed directly toward "deception" territory. That the website obscures what you're paying for 3rd+ passengers doesn't help.

[SAILPRO]

Wow. A quick trip to the grocery store to get my kids' lunches and I come back to a bunch of replies. Thanks!

 

Yes, at the end of the day I have to own the fact that my lack of knowledge of cruise pricing is most likely costing me more money. The supervisor had me shaking she was so rude to me, and I was escalating as was she until I finally had to hang up. I know I'm not getting anywhere here, and I'm between a rock and a hard place. If I want to go, I'm paying $3200 for three people in a 135 sq foot room and that's about it. I do agree with a few people, and what I was trying to explain to the supervisor I was talking to, that they do not publish their "standard" rates for the third and fourth passengers. So when they blanket state that third and fourth passengers automatically sale half off, with no *** and fine print which is usual and customary in advertising, one's general assumption is it's half off the first and second passenger fare. Not half off of some unpublished rate that you can't find anywhere unless you call which leads one to believe that the rates are made up as they go along, which seems to be standard practice with cruise lines as I'm learning. Celebrity's rate yesterday was 65% off the third passenger but the room was an outside balcony and the total price for two rooms was over $1000 more than our two rooms for Norwegian.

 

Just venting here. The NCL rep I was talking to didn't help matters at all as she started out on the defensive. I'm actually quite pleasant to deal with, but don't start right away with an attitude with me!

 

Thank you again for all your input.

 

 

Some of us agreed with you that it's deceptive, but nothing we can do about it and somehow they can get away with it.

Yes, some of the NCL reps are very rude. I would hang up the rude ones and call again.

[jennyfromtheculdesac]

To clear up a few things "rack rate" was my term, NCL never used that. She told me that the third and fourth passenger rate was different from first and second and that rates change as ship is booking. Understood. My whole issue with their at best confusing advertising which is blasted all over their booking pages is their usage of the "50% off third and fourth passengers". I guess what it boils down to is they never actually say what the 50% discount is based on. So therefore, as their rates change with the booking of the ship, that rate is subject to change. They SHOULD put that in fine print somewhere on their website, I looked and couldn't find any. That's my major issue with the whole thing. Shame on me for waiting and at the end of the day it's a $500-$600 difference, however it irks me that they provide no real explanation as to their incentives. I'm probably more irked at myself for paying attention to it in the first place!!!

 

Thanks again for everyone's help. I'm too old to fall for this stuff, yet I fell right into it head first! Enjoy your day everyone!

[Kingofwylietx]

Funny side note, related topic.

 

A social acquaintance of ours builds custom homes. When he wants to boost sales, he advertises a 'free pool'. We were talking about business one night and I asked if it really was free or if they manipulated their prices prior to offering it. He said they jack up the base price of the home by MORE than the cost of the pool. He is immensely entertained by people that think they can get a free pool.

 

Buyer beware. Always.

[Kingofwylietx]

....I'm too old to fall for this stuff, yet I fell right into it head first!

 

It happens to the best of us.

[jennyfromtheculdesac]

Funny side note, related topic.

 

A social acquaintance of ours builds custom homes. When he wants to boost sales, he advertises a 'free pool'. We were talking about business one night and I asked if it really was free or if they manipulated their prices prior to offering it. He said they jack up the base price of the home by MORE than the cost of the pool. He is immensely entertained by people that think they can get a free pool.

 

Buyer beware. Always.

 

People love "free" stuff. We always joke about that and how gullible people can be. It's not so funny when I'm the gullible one!!!