Tip more than the included 15% or not?

[moki'smommy]

I agree with most of the above.

 

Yes, they get paid on top of tips. The pay is (or at least was) $50 per pay period. That's a big $25 per week. In addition, they get medical while on the ship (and get kicked off if they are injured or have anything other than a brief illness), uniforms, and transportation to and from contracts. So their real pay comes from tips.

 

True, they are not forced to work on the ship. And they've told us that the on board are 3-5 times what they could earn at home despite their education.

 

Palo servers do shifts at Cabanas on port days. They do brunch on sea days. We have seen Remy servers working at tastings. I honestly don't know if they do shifts elsewhere. But at both locations, they have a lighter work load and increased tips! So yes, this is a great place to be assigned. We've seen others who opted to climb the ladder to become trainers and supervisors rather than move to Palo as servers. I guess it's a matter of what they want to do with their lives.

[Loonbeam]

This comes up all the time...

 

Why the auto-tipping system is better for everyone than including it in higher fares...

 

For the Passengers:

 

Since you do not have to pay the tip till onboard, its not included in your (taxed) cruise fare, its not calculated for insurance purposes, you don't have to pay it in advance, and you have some control over it in case of service issues

 

For the Line:

 

Limits their fixed obligated costs, provides a feedback system to monitor employee performance, reduces fees paid to agencies

 

For the Crew Member(s):

 

(Note - I am basing this on another line, but assume similar). Crew members recruited through agencies pay a percentage of their salaries to the agency. Tips are not included in this. So, if they are paid a higher wage they may actually take home less money. (Moki or someone else may have a better idea how Disney does it)

 

It's not a perfect system for sure, and many people don't understand it, but when properly executed it is a fair system.

[moki'smommy]

How are cruise fares taxed? The line item for "taxes and government fees" is the same whether you book an inside cabin or a concierge suite and essentially amounts to port charges.

 

I don't believe that auto tipping provides any way to monitor employee performance. DCL has no way of knowing whether someone who removes the auto tips really tips in cash or not. They don't know whether someone adds cash to their envelope or not. They DO see those people who choose to increase tips at GS, and they have a head count on those who do nothing and pay the auto (but those could still be increasing tips with cash).

 

My understanding is that most DCL employees are not recruited thru an agency. They are primarily recruited by referral from current CMs. They are screened and processed thru an agency prior to being hired, and DCL pays a fee for that. I'm not aware that CMs are paying a salary percentage after hire. I can't say that they are not, but my understanding is that DCL pays the agency for successful hires. IF they are paying a percentage of salary to an agency, that would certainly explain why DCL pays the $25 per week "salary."

[Loonbeam]

In some states, sales taxes are included. In some countries you have VAT.

 

And while they can't tell cash tips, etc, they can look for patterns. If the same employee keeps seeing removals cruise after cruise....

 

How are cruise fares taxed? The line item for "taxes and government fees" is the same whether you book an inside cabin or a concierge suite and essentially amounts to port charges.

 

I don't believe that auto tipping provides any way to monitor employee performance. DCL has no way of knowing whether someone who removes the auto tips really tips in cash or not. They don't know whether someone adds cash to their envelope or not. They DO see those people who choose to increase tips at GS' date=' and they have a head count on those who do nothing and pay the auto (but those could still be increasing tips with cash).

 

My understanding is that most DCL employees are not recruited thru an agency. They are primarily recruited by referral from current CMs. They are screened and processed thru an agency prior to being hired, and DCL pays a fee for that. I'm not aware that CMs are paying a salary percentage after hire. I can't say that they are not, but my understanding is that DCL pays the agency for successful hires. IF they are paying a percentage of salary to an agency, that would certainly explain why DCL pays the $25 per week "salary."[/quote']

[moki'smommy]

In some states, sales taxes are included. In some countries you have VAT.

 

And while they can't tell cash tips, etc, they can look for patterns. If the same employee keeps seeing removals cruise after cruise....

 

Please tell me which states charge sales tax on cruises (so I know to not move there!) I'll have to check with some of my European friends--I wasn't aware that VAT tax was charged on purchases that are outside of the EU. I do know that when I booked our Dutch friend into our cabin, using her home address, I didn't pay any taxes on her beyond the port charges.

 

I know that on the Med cruises, when the entire cruise was within the EU, we paid VAT taxes on gift shop purchases. When part of the cruise was outside the EU, we did not have to pay the VAT. In fact, DCL made a point of telling us on our B2B to make purchases on the first leg to avoid the tax! Yes, we can get part of it refunded when we leave the EU, but not nearly all of it.

[moki'smommy]

Loonbeam, there is no VAT tax charged on the fare for a cruise departing from a US port. I base this on 2 things. First, I checked with friends in the UK. Secondly, I am in London now and the default on my computer has changed to price cruises in British pounds. I am keenly aware of the current exchange rate. Whether I look up the cruise in dollars or pounds, the fare is the same after applying the exchange rate, and is consistent with what I paid for the same cruise when I booked it from the US.

 

IF there is VAT on a cruise departing from the EU or cruising entirely within the EU, I don't know. If there is, it is buried in an increased cruise fare, not a separate line item on the booking.

[Loonbeam]

My TA says the VAT issue (or whatever they call it) seems to be some countries in Asia. In the UK, there is apparently a mandated premium based on fare included in the charges, something to do with bankruptcy protection for travel providers (I keep wanting to say Abta, but that's something else. It's a bonding scheme and the costs are passed back in fares)

 

Sales tax wise, TECHNICALLY, a travel agency in FL is supposed to collect sales tax on cruises departing in FL, as its an interstate services transaction. This is not currently being enforced as its considered unfair to non-FL residences (US Sales tax rules on interstate transactions are a mess.) It gets more complicated when you deal with registry issues. Same holds true in TX.

 

Given the way Disney operates, the tax issue might not be as much of a benefit, but the point about insurance coverage still stands, which can be as much as 10% of cruise fare depending on conditions.

 

Loonbeam' date=' there is no VAT tax charged on the fare for a cruise departing from a US port. I base this on 2 things. First, I checked with friends in the UK. Secondly, I am in London now and the default on my computer has changed to price cruises in British pounds. I am keenly aware of the current exchange rate. Whether I look up the cruise in dollars or pounds, the fare is the same after applying the exchange rate, and is consistent with what I paid for the same cruise when I booked it from the US.

 

IF there is VAT on a cruise departing from the EU or cruising entirely within the EU, I don't know. If there is, it is buried in an increased cruise fare, not a separate line item on the booking.[/quote']

[moki'smommy]

I can assure you that if the travel agency I use (which is located in Florida) was suddenly required to charge me either the 6% FL state sales tax or that plus the local tax (which can bring it up to almost 8%), I would suddenly be doing my own bookings. They are a great agency, but I'm not going to pay the state of Florida to use them....and I suspect that they would suddenly open an office in Georgia or somewhere else!

 

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to debate tax law with you, but I do know that regardless of my state of residence or the departure port for may cruise, DCL or otherwise, I've never been charged state sales tax on a cruise. And IF I've ever been charged VAT, it has been buried so that I never saw it as a line item (I've departed from Dover and Barcelona on DCL).

 

I can't follow what you tried to say about some bond issue increasing European or British fares....don't try to make it clear--I don't care and I don't think anyone else does. We care what the fare that DCL or another line charges us amounts to.

 

What I HAVE learned is that what DCL includes in "Port taxes and government fees" has been lower than what other lines have included on cruises with the same departure port and the same ports of call. We booked a Celebrity cruise for Alaska, in part because they were so much less costly than DCL based on their "per person" rate in their ads and on their web site. I was quite surprised to find that their "taxes and government fees" were more than double that of DCL and were not included in the originally quoted rate. Yes, they were still less costly than DCL, but the final figures were not nearly as far apart as the initial ads made it appear. What I learned was to do the "fake booking" process on line and see what the final numbers are before considering a cruise. Or to use my TA who quotes me only "final figures" rather than those shown in other locations.

[Ex techie]

For the Passengers:

 

Since you do not have to pay the tip till onboard, its not included in your (taxed) cruise fare, its not calculated for insurance purposes, you don't have to pay it in advance,

 

I'm confused!

So if you prepay your tips before your cruise, are you saying you have to pay tax on them, but not if you do not pay until you are aboard?

 

If your cruise is interrupted and you have to leave early, say due to a medical emergency, your tips would not be factored into your compensation for expenses?

 

ex techie

[Ex techie]

Loonbeam,

 

this CC thread from 2009 mentions sales tax being applied to drinks and purchases made when in WA ports.

http://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1033363

 

Have DCL charged the additional tax when sailing out of Seattle and in port, and then lowered the price when in international waters, or just swallowed the tax themselves?

I wonder if it is the same in FL ports, and DCL apply the tax to their drinks prices, pay the tax for sales whilst they are in port, then pocket the additional 7 percent when in international waters?

 

ex techie

[Loonbeam]

Not what I am saying...

 

There's a number of people who would prefer the staff being paid more and tipping eliminated altogether. Obviously, the higher wages would be reflected in the cost of the cruise.

 

Example (using round numbers) - Let's just say a cabin steward has their pay raised to an amount that works out to their portion of the tip pool (assuming 15 cabins per steward, average 3 persons per cabin, $5 pp per day = $225 per day/$1575 per 7 day cruise..

 

Disney is not just going to eat $225 per day so they are going to raise the price for each cabin about $125 per 7 day cruise ($5x3x7 plus a markup).

 

Your price to pay in advance is now $125 higher. That affects your travel insurance, possibly taxes at some point (more on that in a sec), credit card charges if you carry a balance, etc). And actually, since I only used stewards in this example it would be higher than that.

 

Under the current system you have the option to pre-pay but with a higher fare effectively are required to. You've given up control (other than being able to still tip more) for little benefit.

 

As far as sales tax, under FL law, someone doing business in FL collecting for a service delivered in FL is expected to collect tax on that service unless it is exempt. Technically, a cruise qualifies as it is not on the exempt list (one could make the argument that it would be classified as a hotel, but that would invoke hotel taxes, there would also be an open question in international waters if those days count and how you would divide fares). That said, there has been an understanding that said tax is not being collected now and not been enforced (much like the law on paying your own tax on out of state purchases). In the event of budget needs, this could always change. TX, WA and CA all have similar laws.

 

Gratuities are on the exempt list from sales taxes.

 

I'm confused!

So if you prepay your tips before your cruise, are you saying you have to pay tax on them, but not if you do not pay until you are aboard?

 

If your cruise is interrupted and you have to leave early, say due to a medical emergency, your tips would not be factored into your compensation for expenses?

 

ex techie

Edited September 13, 2015 by Loonbeam

[Ex techie]

Not what I am saying...

 

There's a number of people who would prefer the staff being paid more and tipping eliminated altogether. Obviously, the higher wages would be reflected in the cost of the cruise.

 

Example (using round numbers) - Let's just say a cabin steward has their pay raised to an amount that works out to their portion of the tip pool (assuming 15 cabins per steward, average 3 persons per cabin, $5 pp per day = $225 per day/$1575 per 7 day cruise..

 

Disney is not just going to eat $225 per day so they are going to raise the price for each cabin about $125 per 7 day cruise ($5x3x7 plus a markup).

 

Your price to pay in advance is now $125 higher. That affects your travel insurance, possibly taxes at some point (more on that in a sec), credit card charges if you carry a balance, etc). And actually, since I only used stewards in this example it would be higher than that.

 

Under the current system you have the option to pre-pay but with a higher fare effectively are required to. You've given up control (other than being able to still tip more) for little benefit.

 

As far as sales tax, under FL law, someone doing business in FL collecting for a service delivered in FL is expected to collect tax on that service unless it is exempt. Technically, a cruise qualifies as it is not on the exempt list (one could make the argument that it would be classified as a hotel, but that would invoke hotel taxes, there would also be an open question in international waters if those days count and how you would divide fares). That said, there has been an understanding that said tax is not being collected now and not been enforced (much like the law on paying your own tax on out of state purchases). In the event of budget needs, this could always change. TX, WA and CA all have similar laws.

 

Gratuities are on the exempt list from sales taxes.

 

Lets use your analogy and and why not use correct figures first. Still using round numbers.

 

DCL recommend $4 per day pp for a Stateroom Host, so with a 3 person averaged occupied Stateroom thats $12 per day.Not $5 pp and $15.

Not sure what tip pool you are mentioning. Each Stateroom Host CM get's to keep their tip's and are not pooled. (not the same for bar servers)

 

i do not know how may Staterooms they are responsible for, and by the sounds of it, neither do you assuming 15.

 

So if they have $12 per Stateroom, and clean 15 Staterooms, they make $180.

So for a 7 day trip it is $84 per Stateroom. $1260 totalled.

Yes DCL would increase the cruise fare by $84 for a party of three, $56 for a party of 2, and $112 for a party of 4, and $140 for a party of 5.

If you feel they would tag on an mark up, that is your opinion, and their option to.

Under the current system, you have the option to increase or decrease as you see fit to. What benefit or control are you after with the current system apart from being able to reduce your tips? A better system would be for the cruise line to provide some compensation in the case of really bad service? No?

 

As far as sales tax, under FL law, someone doing business in FL collecting for a service delivered in FL is expected to collect tax on that service unless it is exempt. Technically, a cruise qualifies as it is not on the exempt list (one could make the argument that it would be classified as a hotel, but that would invoke hotel taxes, there would also be an open question in international waters if those days count and how you would divide fares). That said, there has been an understanding that said tax is not being collected now and not been enforced (much like the law on paying your own tax on out of state purchases). In the event of budget needs, this could always change. TX, WA and CA all have similar laws.

 

So all you have written above is null and void in your argument that you pay tax on cruises out of FL ports.

The fact you even state that technically a cruise qualifies in Florida, it is not enforced due to an understanding. What is the sales tax on a cruise from TX or CA? TX laughably have an alcohol tax on "Duty Free"?

 

As always, things could change, but as of now, you are wrong by your own admission for cruises out of FL.

 

ex techie

Edited September 13, 2015 by Ex techie

[Ex techie]

Lets also add the luxury cruise lines that have inclusive fares if you wish to think that service would be lower, and your ability to remove gratuities were removed.

Whilst DCL is not on the same scale as say Regent, Silver Seas's, Seaborne and the like, they still manage to keep the staff happy with decent pay, and most likely have little problems with service levels.

 

So going back a little, what extra taxes do you pay when cruising out of TX, CA, or WA port's apart from the standard port and government taxes?

 

ex techie

[moki'smommy]

I've cruised out of CA and WA and never seen a sales tax placed on the cruise fare. It is possible that there is a tax applied on beverages (this being the only thing that can be purchased while still in port), but since I didn't buy any, I didn't see any sales tax anywhere.

 

On Celebrity, we did purchase the soda package while still in port in WA. There was no sales tax added. There was an automatic gratuity added--basically the same as the one on DCL on a wine package or case of water.

 

I think this stuff about sales tax being added to cruise fare is just wrong. We've done several lines, many ports, and NEVER been charged sales tax on any of them. I'm certain that if Florida law required it, DCL and travel agents would be charging and collecting it. Again, I'm not a legal or tax expert, but I am pretty compulsive about reviewing charges. The only tax I've ever been charged on a cruise was VAT on purchases and services made on board on one cruise that was totally within the EU. Cruises that hit EU and non EU countries did not charge VAT.

[Ex techie]

Interesting new policy over at Norwegian:

 

Norwegian Cruise Line passengers will no longer be able to remove or change the daily service charge (DSC) added to shipboard accounts while still onboard.

 

The charge serves as gratuities for onboard staff including room stewards, waiters and behind-the-scenes support crew. If passengers were unsatisfied with their experience, they could choose to remove the DSC at any point during their voyage. Now, the DSC can only be adjusted by contacting guest relations once they have have returned from their cruise.

 

http://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/news/news.cfm?ID=6529

 

ex techie

 

edited, and reposted on next post.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ex techie

[Ex techie]

Interesting new policy over at Norwegian:

 

Norwegian Cruise Line passengers will no longer be able to remove or change the daily service charge (DSC) added to shipboard accounts while still onboard.

 

The charge serves as gratuities for onboard staff including room stewards, waiters and behind-the-scenes support crew. If passengers were unsatisfied with their experience, they could choose to remove the DSC at any point during their voyage. Now, the DSC can only be adjusted by contacting guest relations once they have have returned from their cruise.

 

http://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/news/news.cfm?ID=6529

 

So if it is a cruise charge, not a gratuity, and it cannot be removed, only refunded by shoreside then surely it should be included in the cruise fare as it is not optional anymore?

 

Interesting!

 

ex techie

__________________

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ex techie

[Loonbeam]

Sorry, was away on a business trip...

 

So, I did some checking. No states are currently charging sales tax on cruises, however as noted, almost all states with ports have the option under current law.

 

Disney DOES hire some staff through agencies that take a percentage of base salary, as well as via other means. They do hire less that way than other larger lines. (Confirmed this from a contact at Disney corporate who asked a colleague at DCL HR)

 

Anecdotal and possibly out of date - this is from someone who works currently on RCCL has worked on NCL and Disney (5+ years ago) - Disney pays their people a little less than the other lines (I'm referring to stewards, servers, etc) but working conditions at least to her was a little better (slightly bigger staff cabins - she only ever had a 2 person but there were some 3s and 4s, the laundry staff and cleaners got those). Stewards (again her opinion) have it a bit worse on Disney because of the 2 bathrooms in all cabins and higher (messy) young kid volume (or as she put it, you would not believe where I found dirty diapers or clothing)

 

Some Asian countries DO charge tax on cruise fares (China is one). This is typically handled by the booking agent and may either be broken out or included in cruise fare.

 

So that means:

 

Right now, the tax issue is not a benefit to anyone, could be in the future if a state gets greedy.

 

Including hotel charge in fare will still increase travel insurance a little bit

 

It MAY make a difference to an individual crewmember depending on how they are contracted.

 

It will mean more interest if you carry a balance on a CC.

 

There is still some small accounting benefit to DCL.

 

The difference is not much to the individual passenger, but over the entire complement of a ship it can be some serious funds.

 

As far as the NCL changes, there are still some bookkeeping advantages to breaking it out, although I wonder if post-cruise adjustments only would now consider it salary for folks on those type of contracts. NCL is one of the few lines where I don't have any contacts to try to find out the thoughts behind that change. If I had to guess, it was the zoo at disembarkation, and while adjustments are no longer allowed by default, I suspect exceptions can be made in special cases.

[moki'smommy]

So most of the babble in your previous post was erroneous. At least you were able to verify and correct it.

 

A couple of comments. The only cabins on DCL with two full baths are the suites. The other cabins have a split bath--the difference is that there are two sinks. Still only one toilet and one tub to be cleaned. And 11Cs and HA cabins have only a single (not split) bath. More work for the host? minimally, I suppose. As to some guests being slobs--yup. I can remember ordering my child to pick up and "put away" her dirty clothes because it was not the job of the host to touch them. Obviously not everyone feels that way.

 

It really doesn't matter what DCL pays people in tipped positions; the vast majority of their income comes from tips. Their minimal salaries are such a small percentage of their income as to be negligible.

 

I was shocked at how low the salaries in non-tipped positions are; they barely meet US minimum wage standards and these are people with training and experience in similar shoreside positions. I do get that they include "room and board," making them ideal for young people who have no shoreside bills. But if you are keeping up car insurance, possibly a share of rent on a place back home...well, I guess if you have a home of your own "back home," it doesn't make sense that you are on the ship.

 

As to tips, they seem to be in the same range on most lines. When we cruised DCL and Celebrity in the same year, DCL's standard tip was a little higher. There wasn't enough difference to matter to one family, but across an entire cruise it means a bit more for the CM.

[PoopDeckPappy]

The "expected" tip is the 15% automatic gratuity and the $12 per guest per night standard tip that is billed to your account if you do nothing. Anything more than that is generosity on your part.

 

What I do with bar items--if I went to the bar' date=' ordered, and was handed an item, it's the 15%. If someone brought me something when I was elsewhere (like a roaming server around the pool), I'll round up the amount to include a little extra tip.

 

No, you are not wrong to tip just the standard. If you can afford to be generous and the service was excellent, that's great. If either the service was lacking or the budget is stretched, the standard tip meets what is the stated norm.[/quote']

 

I do exactly the same.

[Emperor Norton]

Just got the final bill for the cruise charges in the mail. It seems that even though I went to guest services and raised all the tip amounts I was charged the base rate and the staff didn't get the increase.:mad:

[moki'smommy]

Just got the final bill for the cruise charges in the mail. It seems that even though I went to guest services and raised all the tip amounts I was charged the base rate and the staff didn't get the increase.:mad:

 

OH NO, that' sad. Didn't they give you a receipt showing the increases? We have always gotten one. Is it possible that there is a line for the base amount and a second line for the increase? Or that they divided the statement among the people in the cabin and the increase is showing on someone else's tally?

 

We have always had both a receipt for the increased tips AND a coupon showing the new amounts to place in the envelopes for the CMs....and my charges have always shown the new, increased amounts.

 

Why final bill in the mail? We always got it under our door in the cabin on the last morning.

[Emperor Norton]

OH NO' date=' that' sad. Didn't they give you a receipt showing the increases? We have always gotten one. Is it possible that there is a line for the base amount and a second line for the increase? Or that they divided the statement among the people in the cabin and the increase is showing on someone else's tally?

 

We have always had both a receipt for the increased tips AND a coupon showing the new amounts to place in the envelopes for the CMs....and my charges have always shown the new, increased amounts.

 

Why final bill in the mail? We always got it under our door in the cabin on the last morning.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure why in the mail. There wasn't anything under the door in the morning - perhaps our concierge was intending to deliver it personally?

[moki'smommy]

I'm not sure why in the mail. There wasn't anything under the door in the morning - perhaps our concierge was intending to deliver it personally?

 

That would make sense.

[Ex techie]

I'm super confused now!

 

Sorry, was away on a business trip...

 

So, I did some checking. No states are currently charging sales tax on cruises, however as noted, almost all states with ports have the option under current law.

 

So no states with ports are currently charging sales tax on cruises, but states with ports CAN charge, if they wish, a sales tax, but states without ports cannot right?

So when you pay your cruise fare, who are you actually paying? In the case of DCL, are you paying Disney Cruise Line in Celebration FL, or the Magical Cruise Company in the UK trading as Disney Cruise Line? Are you paying DCL in FL for the cruise or MCC in the UK?

 

I ask that as if say DCL opened an office in Kansas to handle transactions, that as a non port state so no sales tax on the cruise? What would stop the cruise lines from moving an office to a landlocked state?

 

Additionally, unlike land based businesses, cruise lines can move their product within a few hours to a different location. So if TX were for example to implement that state cruise sales tax, then the lines could move their ships to other ports.

 

What actual physical product is consumed in the state to be taxed? Very little before they are international waters, and then no tax applies.

 

Disney DOES hire some staff through agencies that take a percentage of base salary, as well as via other means. They do hire less that way than other larger lines. (Confirmed this from a contact at Disney corporate who asked a colleague at DCL HR)

 

Yes the Chinese laundry is one of them. They are non DCL CM's and are vendors much like the Photog's, Medical staff, Spa and Shopping Guides.

I was told once that the Filipino Government has an agency type arrangement for partial payment of their wages for citizens not working within the country and at sea. Not sure of any details or truth though.

 

Anecdotal and possibly out of date - this is from someone who works currently on RCCL has worked on NCL and Disney (5+ years ago) - Disney pays their people a little less than the other lines (I'm referring to stewards, servers, etc) but working conditions at least to her was a little better (slightly bigger staff cabins - she only ever had a 2 person but there were some 3s and 4s, the laundry staff and cleaners got those). Stewards (again her opinion) have it a bit worse on Disney because of the 2 bathrooms in all cabins and higher (messy) young kid volume (or as she put it, you would not believe where I found dirty diapers or clothing)

 

Some Asian countries DO charge tax on cruise fares (China is one). This is typically handled by the booking agent and may either be broken out or included in cruise fare.

 

We were talking about cruises from the States though!

 

So that means:

 

Right now, the tax issue is not a benefit to anyone, could be in the future if a state gets greedy.

 

The state tax issue IS of benefit to us at the moment! No tax is being imposed!

 

Including hotel charge in fare will still increase travel insurance a little bit

 

Travel insurance total cruise fare cost increase of $336 is negligible.

 

It MAY make a difference to an individual crewmember depending on how they are contracted.

 

Yes, that is correct.

 

It will mean more interest if you carry a balance on a CC.

 

If you are paying for a cruise on a CC and do not have the funds to pay the CC bill at the end of the cruise, then a $336 increase is not going to bother that person, plus they are probably paying their tips with the CC anyways.

 

There is still some small accounting benefit to DCL.

 

Possibly

 

The difference is not much to the individual passenger, but over the entire complement of a ship it can be some serious funds.

 

As far as the NCL changes, there are still some bookkeeping advantages to breaking it out, although I wonder if post-cruise adjustments only would now consider it salary for folks on those type of contracts. NCL is one of the few lines where I don't have any contacts to try to find out the thoughts behind that change. If I had to guess, it was the zoo at disembarkation, and while adjustments are no longer allowed by default, I suspect exceptions can be made in special cases.

 

I think this remains to be seen as to how this is all handled and works out.

 

 

Comments in red

 

ex techie

[Loonbeam]

My counter notes in black after >>> Just to make it more confusing.

 

So no states with ports are currently charging sales tax on cruises, but states with ports CAN charge, if they wish, a sales tax, but states without ports cannot right?

So when you pay your cruise fare, who are you actually paying? In the case of DCL, are you paying Disney Cruise Line in Celebration FL, or the Magical Cruise Company in the UK trading as Disney Cruise Line? Are you paying DCL in FL for the cruise or MCC in the UK?

 

I ask that as if say DCL opened an office in Kansas to handle transactions, that as a non port state so no sales tax on the cruise? What would stop the cruise lines from moving an office to a landlocked state?

 

Additionally, unlike land based businesses, cruise lines can move their product within a few hours to a different location. So if TX were for example to implement that state cruise sales tax, then the lines could move their ships to other ports.

 

What actual physical product is consumed in the state to be taxed? Very little before they are international waters, and then no tax applies.

 

>>> That pretty much sums up WHY they aren't collecting. Basically, sales taxes operate by exclusion, which effectively means that if an item is purchased in state and consumed in state and is not specifically excluded, you are supposed to pay sales tax on it. It gets a LOT more complicated with inter-state purchases. Honestly, it would probably take the courts to sort it out.

 

 

Disney DOES hire some staff through agencies that take a percentage of base salary, as well as via other means. They do hire less that way than other larger lines. (Confirmed this from a contact at Disney corporate who asked a colleague at DCL HR)

 

Yes the Chinese laundry is one of them. They are non DCL CM's and are vendors much like the Photog's, Medical staff, Spa and Shopping Guides.

I was told once that the Filipino Government has an agency type arrangement for partial payment of their wages for citizens not working within the country and at sea. Not sure of any details or truth though.

 

>>> This is in line with what I heard, except I think Laundry and Maintenance are paid by DCL. The Phillipine rules are complex as heck regarding overseas income, not even going to try to parse those.

 

Anecdotal and possibly out of date - this is from someone who works currently on RCCL has worked on NCL and Disney (5+ years ago) - Disney pays their people a little less than the other lines (I'm referring to stewards, servers, etc) but working conditions at least to her was a little better (slightly bigger staff cabins - she only ever had a 2 person but there were some 3s and 4s, the laundry staff and cleaners got those). Stewards (again her opinion) have it a bit worse on Disney because of the 2 bathrooms in all cabins and higher (messy) young kid volume (or as she put it, you would not believe where I found dirty diapers or clothing)

 

Some Asian countries DO charge tax on cruise fares (China is one). This is typically handled by the booking agent and may either be broken out or included in cruise fare.

 

We were talking about cruises from the States though!

 

>>> From what I can tell, the tax is paid on booking, payable to the country and does not matter where you sail.

So that means:

 

Right now, the tax issue is not a benefit to anyone, could be in the future if a state gets greedy.

 

The state tax issue IS of benefit to us at the moment! No tax is being imposed!

 

>>> True, but in terms of the discussion whether or not to include tips in fare and up wages, since not in effect, not applicable. If a state starts charging it becomes a small benefit (assume 6% of $336 or saves about $20 per cruise)

 

Including hotel charge in fare will still increase travel insurance a little bit

 

Travel insurance total cruise fare cost increase of $336 is negligible.

 

>>> Again, true.. But lets say 6 percent again is the average (varies from 4-10 based on age), so another $20

It MAY make a difference to an individual crewmember depending on how they are contracted.

 

Yes, that is correct.

 

It will mean more interest if you carry a balance on a CC.

 

If you are paying for a cruise on a CC and do not have the funds to pay the CC bill at the end of the cruise, then a $336 increase is not going to bother that person, plus they are probably paying their tips with the CC anyways.

 

There is still some small accounting benefit to DCL.

 

Possibly

 

 

>>> So yes, the benefit to the passenger of breaking out tips is relatively tiny on an individual basis, $20-$40 for a party of 3. That said, with 3000 pax on a ship, the COLLECTIVE benefit is $20 thousand to $40 thousand per cruise.

 

For the crew, IF a crewmember is affected, lets use a steward, and lets say the fee is 10 percent. Right now, with 15 cabins, they get around $180 per day in income from tips (I think somewhere above it was $4 per person per day suggested for the steward). So $1400 of their income is now eligible for fees or $140 per week. That can make quite a difference. If not fee based, of course, its irrelevant. But for even a few members that can make a big change.

 

The flip side of the argument, other than being a tiny bit easier for passengers, there's really no UPSIDE to bundling tips/hotel charge/whatever into the fare. It's not like pax have to do anything now.

 

So even if the benefit to pax/crew/line is minimal, its still better than the inclusive option.

 

Disney, perhaps more than the other lines can get away with this because they don't compete on price. But bear in mind if Disney was the only non-luxury line to do this, they would find themselves at an even further price competitive disadvantage, unless all lines changed the rules. As they eventually add capacity, this could come much more into play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm super confused now!

 

 

 

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ex techie

Edited September 17, 2015 by Loonbeam
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