NCL selling cabins already sold on the Sun!!

[sunshine 229]

cndcheifthom,

 

I'm glad you have your cabins straightened out. Enjoy your cruise.

 

Zeno,

I think I already answered your question about NCL wanting to alienate customers, in my previous post. I don't think they want specifically to alienate customers I just think that with the demand for cruises as high as it seems to be right now, they don't particularily care about alienating or inconveniencing customers if they think it will improve their bottom line.

 

Now if the companies you have worked for been dedicated to customer alienation as a corporate guideline, I could understand why you might attribute that sort of motivation to NCL.

 

 

No, I can't say that I've worked for any companies that went out of their way to purposely alienate customers, but then I don't think I've ever worked for a company that would have been likely to make such a basic mistake in something that they are supposed to know all about or in the unlikely event that something like that happened, that would seem to care so little about fixing it, until someone got the CEO involved.

 

Maybe I've just been lucky in my career choices.

[Zeno]

Actually except for one person it was fixed for most of us well before the CEO "got involved". So I think they cared enough. Don't know why you are getting more excited about this than most of us actually involved are. Stuff happens - as long as it gets fixed I can cope.

[Zeno]

OOps double post.

[Zeno]

 

Maybe I've just been lucky in my career choices.

 

Or maybe just unaware of what happens behind closed doors. Most companies don't parade their mistakes before the rank and file (particularly not those related to "computer" problems).

Some major booboos: (BTW I only worked for one of these companies)

Bank leaves printouts of confidential customer info in public view

Insurance company sells PCs without wiping the drives - drives contain confidential customer info

Payroll system of major bank screws up - payrolls of several large companies are delayed up to a week.

Major telecommunications company overbills thousands of customers and has to be forced by legal means to refund them

Major retailer is forced to sue computer service provider when system provided simply does not meet minimal requirements .

But perhaps you were lucky enough to work for perfect companies who never made mistakes (or at least never admitted to them).

[roddee]

I called my TA 2 or three weeks ago asking for a confirmation for our reservation which was already paid in full for our Jan 28 cruise after the changes had been made with the new departure and itinerary. She pulled it up and reviewed the entire reservation, but the room, like others have stated, was not the same as the original confirmation I had in my hand. NCL had, for some unknown reason, put us in the room next to the original room. The 3 rooms on either side, including our original room, were available for sale. When I questioned my TA she had no idea why it had been changed, she said she could change it back, which really wasn't necessary. I just wanted an answer as to WHY it had been changed, and she couldn't find out the reason. We were already paid in full before Sept 1, and had reconfirmed our intention to stay on the Sun within 1 week of the changes. It seems Katrina did just as much to confuse NCL as to mess up the Gulf Coast!!

Dee

[Susie51]

I'm so glad NCL straightened out your rooms for you. For the anxiety NCL caused you, I hope they gave you a good percentage off this current cruise, a good ship board credit for all cabins, or at least 50% off next cruise.

 

My friend received $700.00 in shipboard credit when Princess needed her room and she had to be moved to a different sail date.

 

I'd also check with your TA since she/he was not able to do anything for you to fix things. She/he made a nice commission from your three suites perhaps she would give you a discount for this cruise or a free upcoming cruise for two. TAs get wonderful deals all the time.

 

I enjoy NCL a lot. We booked through NCL for this last cruise and they were extremely helpful with all of our questions.

 

Also, I hope New Orleans will be able rebuild and that NCL can return cruising there which will help New Orleans to continue to rebuild with much stronger seawalls. It is such an important port for the U.S. economy and has a unique culture and is a special historical site. Then your family can cruise together again.

 

Thanks to your son for his excellent service.

 

Sue

[Zeno]

I'm so glad NCL straightened out your rooms for you. For the anxiety NCL caused you, I hope they gave you a good percentage off this current cruise, a good ship board credit for all cabins, or at least 50% off next cruise.

 

 

Sue

Good Lord !That would be expecting a bit much for a minor inconvenience/annoyance! I sincerely hope I am never that greedy! NCL is already giving us a $100 per cabin on board credit. They did not switch these cruises and dates around for some arbitrary reason. New Orleans simply was no longer an option for the time being. Yes they screwed up with the cabins but they seem to be fixing that up for everyone.

[electricron]

Talk about greed. Isn't it amazing how much some want, when they don't have to pay the bills?Check out NCL's earnings in the last quarter(2nd Qtr). Star Cruises Ltd. (SKZF.PK), NCL's parent corporation, made an operating profit of $6.2 million on revenues of $71 million.

That's a profit of less than 10%.

source:http://www.starcruises.com/News/2005/20050823_qe.pdf

 

$100 per cabin (with two passengers) onboard credit NCL gives for an average fee of $1,000 per cabin, equals the 10% profit. No corporation will, nor should they, intentionally lose money to keep customers happy.

[sunshine 229]

Talk about greed. Isn't it amazing how much some want, when they don't have to pay the bills?Check out NCL's earnings in the last quarter(2nd Qtr). Star Cruises Ltd. (SKZF.PK), NCL's parent corporation, made an operating profit of $6.2 million on revenues of $71 million.

That's a profit of less than 10%.

source:http://www.starcruises.com/News/2005/20050823_qe.pdf

 

$100 per cabin (with two passengers) onboard credit NCL gives for an average fee of $1,000 per cabin, equals the 10% profit. No corporation will, nor should they, intentionally lose money to keep customers happy.

 

Interesting figures. Do you have any idea how that compares to the profit margin of say Royal Caribbean or Carnival?

[electricron]

I'll have to look it up. Again, for the 2nd Qtr:

Carnival

Profit Margin (ttm): 20.41%

Operating Margin (ttm): 23.58%

Royal Caribbean

Profit Margin (ttm): 11.57%

Operating Margin (ttm): 17.18%

 

Carnival is in a league by itself, but RCL and NCL parent corporation Star Cruises 11% and 10% profit margins are similar.

[sunshine 229]

I'll have to look it up. Again, for the 2nd Qtr:

Carnival

Profit Margin (ttm): 20.41%

Operating Margin (ttm): 23.58%

Royal Caribbean

Profit Margin (ttm): 11.57%

Operating Margin (ttm): 17.18%

 

Carnival is in a league by itself, but RCL and NCL parent corporation Star Cruises 11% and 10% profit margins are similar.

 

Boy Carnival seems to be cleaning up compared to the other two. Course that is just for one quarter. I wonder if that is the usual difference in performance or just some kind of blip.

[electricron]

Well, Carnival owns Princess' 16 ships and Holland America's 14 ships in addition to its own 21 ships, that's 51 total ships. RCL has just 20 ships, while NCL has only 12 ships.

 

There is some inherent profitability in being so huge.

[Zeno]

Talk about greed. Isn't it amazing how much some want, when they don't have to pay the bills?Check out NCL's earnings in the last quarter(2nd Qtr). Star Cruises Ltd. (SKZF.PK), NCL's parent corporation, made an operating profit of $6.2 million on revenues of $71 million.

That's a profit of less than 10%.

source:http://www.starcruises.com/News/2005/20050823_qe.pdf

 

$100 per cabin (with two passengers) onboard credit NCL gives for an average fee of $1,000 per cabin, equals the 10% profit. No corporation will, nor should they, intentionally lose money to keep customers happy.

 

Electricon:

Thanks for pointing out what should be obvious (but sometimes seems to escape people). NCL is not a charity dedicated giving middle class people vacations. They are a business. In order to stay in business, they must make a profit. If they give people ridiculous levels of compensation for minor annoyances, they will not make a profit. If they don't make a profit, they

will not stay in business. Fewer cruiselines in business, less competition, higher prices for cruises.

[sunshine 229]

Well, Carnival owns Princess' 16 ships and Holland America's 14 ships in addition to its own 21 ships, that's 51 total ships. RCL has just 20 ships, while NCL has only 12 ships.

 

There is some inherent profitability in being so huge.

 

I'm wondering what the size is if you include all of the Star cruises ships?

And does RCL's 20 ships include the Celebrity ones?

 

Also, wondering what the operating profit margin is for NCL. There is a much bigger difference between the operating margin and profit margin for RCL than for Carnival. I guess part of that could indeed be explained by economies of scale. I'm sure it is more economical to purcahse computer systems or soft ware for a bigger company than a smaller one, for instance.

 

My accounting is pretty rusty.Where would things like on board credits for missed ports etc. show up? Would they be treatred as part of operating expenses or as extrordinary expenses that would be excluded?

[shoreguy]

Well, Carnival owns Princess' 16 ships and Holland America's 14 ships in addition to its own 21 ships, that's 51 total ships. RCL has just 20 ships, while NCL has only 12 ships.

 

There is some inherent profitability in being so huge.

 

That is only part of Carnival - You need to include Cunard, Costa, Windstar, Seaborn :)

 

 

They are clearly looking to leverage size and market share to deduce cost of goods sold. Carnivor wants to be the WalMart of cruiselines and drive the little guys out of business. Thus the current and planned investments by NCL. It is grow or die.

 

In my view NCL is working hard to change their position. They will no longer be the low cost, interesting port, fleet on mismatched ships. They are working to upgrade and upsell. Expect the product and the price to continue to move up market.

 

The Star, Dawn, Jewel, Pearl are not the same product as the the soon to be departed Dream, Wind, Majesty. Don't expect the same rock bottom prices in the future. Profits have to increase or there is no sense making the huge capital investments

[sunshine 229]

From what I have seen and what I have read here, the ships you mention; Dawn, Star etc. do seem to be in a different class than the older ships.

I just hope that NCL realizes that they will also have to provide the upscale services if they want to charge the upscale prices, and I think this means customer service department too. Not just onboard service.

 

I think NCL has their work cut out for them. It is never easy to change market niche. Look how Carnival is still dogged by the reputation of being the hard drinking, puke in the halls, party ships. I think they are working to change that image too, but if you spend anytime on the Carnival board it just keeps coming up.

 

NCL is classed in a lot of minds as a lower cost cruiseline, time will tell if they can get people to rethink and be willing to pay as much or more for an NCL cruise as they do for some of the other lines that are perceived to be more expensive cruiselines.

 

In the meantime, I'm not sure if their older ships are helping their quest to portray the new image. SO many people out there don't make the same fine distinctions that people who spend a lot of time on this board do. To them I'm afraid NCL is NCL. What they got in the way of service and amenities on, say the Dream or the Crown, will form their impression of what NCL is.

[Zeno]

Personally I hope NCL remains a low cost, interesting port kind of cruiseline. This is what attracts me to them. I don't mind older ships when the price is good and the ports are interesting - so I guess it depends on what you want out of the cruise. If I wanted a luxury cruise - I would really jump up - say to Seabourn (sp?).

[shoreguy]

NCL is in fact providing upscale services with more to come.

 

No mass market line has a better suite program then the new ships. You don't get a butler on Carnival or RCI in a standard suite.

 

Change takes time it does not happen overnight but in 3 years all of the old NCL will be gone. I am not sure it is a good thing but the cheese always moves.

 

Current customer service is on par with all the other lines. Stuff happens read the other boards. 25,000+ get on and off NCL ships every week most have nothing but a positive experience with CS. In fact NCL has handled the extrodinary events better then some of the other lines. I believe we get a jadded view here but valuable information to help us when the stuff hits the fan and it will.

 

Lattitudes gets upgraded next year along with a new Website to enhance online support. They still have systems work to do in IT. They are in fact investing in other areas besides the fleet.

 

Nobody has better onboard dinning options.

 

Nobody has a better homeport focus.

 

Nobody has a better affinity program then the MBNA card.

 

It is clear that at least NCL has a vision and is moving toward it instead of drifting at sea as it was in the mid 90s.

 

One thing remains true NCL is not affraid to try something new. If any cruiseline can change it wil be NCL.

 

Many said freestyle will never work - it will be a nightmare including me.

 

Year round from NYC - most said it was crazy - nobody will book it - now here come the me to lines.

[shoreguy]

Personally I hope NCL remains a low cost, interesting port kind of cruiseline. This is what attracts me to them. I don't mind older ships when the price is good and the ports are interesting - so I guess it depends on what you want out of the cruise. If I wanted a luxury cruise - I would really jump up - say to Seabourn (sp?).

 

I think NCL will be happy to get to RCI pricing. I compaired the Voyager out of NJ last year and I could book an AD penthouse on the Dawn for the price of a balcony on RCI.

 

I don't mind the older ships either. The future and freestyle just don't include them. Give me the Windward (before the sretch) and traditional dinning with alternate resturants and I would be happy. The Leeward was a great little ship that is still in service. I am not sure anyone can compete when it takes 3/4 ships, staff and crew to carry the same number of passengers as a Voyager class.

 

That is a high jump to Seabourn :eek:

[SueSea]

$100 per cabin (with two passengers) onboard credit NCL gives for an average fee of $1,000 per cabin, equals the 10% profit. No corporation will, nor should they, intentionally lose money to keep customers happy.

 

First of all, while there are great deals to be had on cruise fares, the average fee is not $1,000 per cabin. While I do not doubt that some unsold cabin may be offered for as little as $500 pp, this is certainly much less than the average rate for Sun, especially considering a good number of cabin have more than two people in them. Secondly, greater profit is generated from onboard sales. So when you are looking for the average revenue per cabin, you must include onboard revenues. Giving passengers onboard credit may result in their purchasing something they otherwise would not, like a pricey spa treatment. If someone purchases a $100 spa treatment that they otherwise would not have, the cruise line is not out the $100, they are out only the cost of the treatment before markup. Or some might spend the entire $100 in the casino and lose, giving the credit right back to the cruise line. A $100 credit does not necessarily (nor IMO, usually) result in a decrease in profit of $100.

[sunshine 229]

First of all, while there are great deals to be had on cruise fares, the average fee is not $1,000 per cabin. While I do not doubt that some unsold cabin may be offered for as little as $500 pp, this is certainly much less than the average rate for Sun, especially considering a good number of cabin have more than two people in them. Secondly, greater profit is generated from onboard sales. So when you are looking for the average revenue per cabin, you must include onboard revenues. Giving passengers onboard credit may result in their purchasing something they otherwise would not, like a pricey spa treatment. If someone purchases a $100 spa treatment that they otherwise would not have, the cruise line is not out the $100, they are out only the cost of the treatment before markup. Or some might spend the entire $100 in the casino and lose, giving the credit right back to the cruise line. A $100 credit does not necessarily (nor IMO, usually) result in a decrease in profit of $100.

You make a very valid point.

 

Giving an on board credit of $100 doesn't cost NCL (or any other cruiseline) any where near $100 from their bottom line. And giving a coupon off a future cruise not only doesn't cost anywhere near the face value of the coupon but also ensures that in order to take advantage of the coupon the passenger must first give NCL more money ( for the rest of the cruise fare) and very likely will spend money on drinks, excursions etc. when on that future cruise so, when all is said and done, not a very big cost to NCL at all.

Also, I suspect that many of those discount coupons never get used at all, so NCL gets to look as if they are doing the right thing without it costing them much at all.

Smart marketing I guess.

[electricron]

First of all, while there are great deals to be had on cruise fares, the average fee is not $1,000 per cabin. While I do not doubt that some unsold cabin may be offered for as little as $500 pp, this is certainly much less than the average rate for Sun, especially considering a good number of cabin have more than two people in them.

 

I'll agree with the rest of your post. But I disagree with what I've highlighted above. third, fourth and fifth passenges in a cabin don't pay anywheres near the full price as the first two passengers. Presently, you can get an inside cabin on the Sun for less than $400 each, or for $800 for a cabin. Besides, the $1,000 number was just a number I pulled from thin air. If the cabin prices are more as you state, then NCL's profit margins per cabin are much less than what I stated. With NCL having less than a 10% profit using my numbers, using your numbers it would be more like 5,6 or 7%.

And the gross and net Corporate quarterly revenues and profits I wrote earlier are real numbers you can find on the internet.

[electricron]

You make a very valid point.

 

Giving an on board credit of $100 doesn't cost NCL (or any other cruiseline) any where near $100 from their bottom line. And giving a coupon off a future cruise not only doesn't cost anywhere near the face value of the coupon but also ensures that in order to take advantage of the coupon the passenger must first give NCL more money ( for the rest of the cruise fare) and very likely will spend money on drinks, excursions etc. when on that future cruise so, when all is said and done, not a very big cost to NCL at all.

Also, I suspect that many of those discount coupons never get used at all, so NCL gets to look as if they are doing the right thing without it costing them much at all.

Smart marketing I guess.

 

I disagree with your assestment to profits. NCL has the lowest profit margins of all the major cruise lines. While I agree a $100 credit on this or a future cruise really doesn't cost NCL $100, it's still costing them whatever profits they would have made from that passenger. If on a 2500 passenger cruise 500 of them having credits, NCL really only realizes the full profits from the other 2000 passengers. And if that occurs on every cruise, that will affect the corporate's bottom line......

[Don Haynes]

Carnival also owns Aida cruises, the German line. Meyerwerft is in the process in the other building block constructing three brand new ships for Aida. At 68,000 tons, these ships are smaller than what the other cruise lines are building, but three ships is a huge investment for German language cruising. I wonder if these three ships will fit in the Kiel canal?

[sunshine 229]

I disagree with your assestment to profits. NCL has the lowest profit margins of all the major cruise lines. While I agree a $100 credit on this or a future cruise really doesn't cost NCL $100, it's still costing them whatever profits they would have made from that passenger. If on a 2500 passenger cruise 500 of them having credits, NCL really only realizes the full profits from the other 2000 passengers. And if that occurs on every cruise, that will affect the corporate's bottom line......

 

Well, the way I see it is this:

If you get a $100 on board credit this can't be used to reduce your fare. It is used to purchase drinks, purchase things from the gift shop, take excursions etc. All of these things, I'm willing to bet, have much higher profit margins than NCL's overall profit shown on their statements. If the mark up on a gift shop item is 50%, then the cost to them of having you spend your $100 credit in the gift shop is $50. NOtice that they do not usually let you apply them to tips, since that would cost them an actual $100 (passed on to the staff. They also don't let you use it in the casino where you could actually cash in your chips and walk away with $100.

 

As far as the future cruise credits go, I'm reminded of something my husband likes to say when I tell him I was out shopping and I got a good deal.

For instance I buy a dress with an original price of $100 but I get it on sale for $60. If I try to tell my DH, "look I saved $40" his response will be, no you didn't, you spent $60.

The point of that story is that the person who books another cruise using that $100 off coupon doesn't really save $100 what they actually do is give NCL some more money. In a lot of cases that coupon may encourage them to take another cruise that they hadn't really planned to take, or to take it sooner than they were planning to or to take it with NCL rather than another cruiseline they may have been considering. All of those put more money in NCL's pocket. I suspect that a lot of those coupons go unused too because the customer can't fit another cruise in their schedule or budget within the required time frame or because whatever caused NCL to issue the coupon in the first place makes them unwilling to book another cruise with NCL. The unused coupons cost NCL nothing but the cost of issuing them (paper, ink, and maybe postage).

 

I think it is a smart marketing ploy. It makes the customer feel that NCL is doing something for them. In most cases, involving a missed port or something like that , I think it is fine.

 

In some cases where the problem was bigger ( I'm thinking here what I read about the early POA cruises) I feel NCL should do something to make up for the poor service those cruisers received and I think it should be something that the customer actually gets, not just a discount when they (the customers) spend money the next time.:rolleyes:

 

I know NCL is a business and needs to watch the bottom line and that they can't throw money away but in certain situations they need to do the right thing in order to keep their customers happy and repeat cruising with NCL.