Royal Caribbean Fights Back!

[1corona4u]

carona - I have been thinking way too much about this...;)

 

I agree it sounds like Josh's room was close by. I also am not sure if he is one of the most kindhearted kids, or what else I don't know right now.

 

But like I said I have been thinking too much about this....:D

 

I think the lights were on....they are always on.

 

Still thinking.....

 

If the chair was found as was described, I am OK with your theory he was smoking while sitting on the railing. Let's assume the chair was turned around for ease of getting up on the railing and that's what he was doing.

 

Here's where it gets crazy....

 

What if the timing was so incredible with the ins and outs of George and company, and the crew, and Jen that George was actually out on the balcony when Jen came back to the room, and he wasn't over the side by the time she got there like I had thought. What if after they laid Jen on the bed she got up and went out onto the balcony, and saw him sitting there, and STILL BEING PO'd, maybe made a motion to go after him, or did go after him, and he took a tumble over the side?

 

What if someone really did hear a scream?

 

What if she looked over and saw where he was and said fine leave him there? Maybe she looked over again, maybe she didn't. What if she was freaked out and time passed and she went out to the balcony and looked down and found he was no longer on the canopy, but figured he was OK since he wasn't there? Maybe it was lit enough to see him on the canopy, but not lit enough to see any blood. I can't say I'd think anyone could easily fall off of the canopy, so maybe she would have thought the same thing.

 

Maybe she never sleeps after that, and finally goes up early for the spa, never looks out on the balcony due to not seeing something she doesn't want to remember, and kind of goes about her day with a bit of knowing George isn't showing up for a couples thing, kind of in shock, but not really knowing where he is? (And that may be giving her alot of benefit of the doubt).

 

Yeah, that's good...I had the thought yesterday(while I was off finding my life;) ) that maybe he was on the balcony too, and that maybe he was sitting on the rail, and fell asleep...but yours sounds plausible too....the crew may not have been able to see him if the curtains were partially drawn, if as you say, he was sitting on the rail.....

[kenf333]

Yeah, that's good...I had the thought yesterday(while I was off finding my life;) ) that maybe he was on the balcony too, and that maybe he was sitting on the rail, and fell asleep...but yours sounds plausible too....the crew may not have been able to see him if the curtains were partially drawn, if as you say, he was sitting on the rail.....

 

The thud occured at approx. 420, no one entered the room until 445 at that point he was gone.

[Barefoot_Pirate]

Fine and Ken, don't know how to reconcile the theory and the time line.

 

Fine's theory does explain the widow's actions better than most. IMHO

 

Ken's point about the time line makes the theory impossible. IMHO

 

To make it work, either the wife entered the room & then left and was returned at the later time, or one of the times is wrong (thud or wife being escorted back by RCCL).

[stanford's girl]

Wow...there is a post in that link that is from a friend of George's, and he has some not so nice things to say about Jen. He also stated that George was a heavy drinker, and that it does not suprise him that George and Jen fought on the cruise....

" Yes, while he was no angel and the stories of his hard partying and arguments with Jennifer do not surprise me at all"........

 

Goes by the name of search4truth........gotta read his post....the others, I don't believe all that they have said...they seem to have gathered their information from various sources, and some of them, I think, are heresay.

Corona, Do you have a link for that post from "search4truth"? I keep doing a search for it and can't find it. I would love to read it.

[1corona4u]

Fine and Ken, don't know how to reconcile the theory and the time line.

 

Fine's theory does explain the widow's actions better than most. IMHO

 

Ken's point about the time line makes the theory impossible. IMHO

 

To make it work, either the wife entered the room & then left and was returned at the later time, or one of the times is wrong (thud or wife being escorted back by RCCL).

 

I'm sure Ken will think this is stupid, but what if the "thud" was not him hitting the canopy? I mean, it's steel....no matter how he fell, I'm not so sure that sound would have "reverberated", like Clete said. What would reverberate in my mind would be someone slamming the slider really hard........he fell 22 ft...I don't think that sound would have traveled up....I'll have to do some research on that.....

 

 

The door being slammed would have rattled the balconies on either side, and possibly 1 deck below...maybe that's why the people on deck 7 didn't hear anything....

[wolfganghowell]

So much doesn't make sense and will never make sense. I'm a pretty heavy sleeper but how can 200 plus pounds falling 2 stories hit a canopy outside of numerous passenger cabins and only a handful of passengers heard it. Remember - Clete heard all the party sounds but he obviously fell back asleep heavily enough NOT to hear them bring Jennifer back to the room. I have a suspicion that there are many passenger statements that have rightly only been shared with the FBI and RCI and may or may not become part of the record once the FBI releases their findings. We tend to forget that this was a much anticipated vacation for many people and they may just want to give their statements to the authorities and salvage whatever they can out of their vacation. There may be a lot of "suppressed" information on this canopy that we just don't know.

[SomeBeach]

Just watched today's episode of Inside Edition. Don't know when it may be on where y'all live. Here in the Chicago area, it was on at 3 CST.

The forensic expert the family retained was on the ship today. He claims he made some "finds." They were out on the balcony taking measurements and moving chairs around.

RCI also had their own representative on the ship. He said the Turkish authorities gathered enough evidence.

[SomeBeach]

Just watched today's episode of Inside Edition. Don't know when it may be on where y'all live. Here in the Chicago area, it was on at 3 CST.

The forensic expert the family retained was on the ship today. He claims he made some "finds." They were out on the balcony taking measurements and moving chairs around.

RCI also had their own representative on the ship. He said the Turkish authorities gathered enough evidence.

[Kaibigan]

Stanfordgilr, I had a hard time finding that post, also, but here it is. http://www.rjames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60&page=19&pp=10&highlight=search4truth You'll have to scroll down the page to the 34th post.

 

I agree with Wolfie that (hopefully) there are more witnesses that are speaking directly to the FBI and not turning to the press (along with "Did you get the correct spelling of my name?" and "Do I get to go on TV?") It takes time to do all of these investigations. And while the family is upset that authorities only took 2 hours on the ship and RCI is only allowing their investigators 2 hours, (meaning they understand it takes time to gather the facts, they should also understand that putting all of those puzzle pieces back together takes a lot of time also. Hopefully they are further along in their investigation than is being posted in the media.

 

It's disappointing to me that the cop in the cabin next to theirs is so outspoken to the press. Shouldn't he know better?? And, does anybody else find it a little creepy that he was looking into their cabin at the bed??? (And also, does anybody know if he did that without noticing the blood below??)

[stanford's girl]

Just watching Catherine Crier and Bree Smith said they are convinced it's murder and RC is covering it up. She also said that they think it's a crew member, who had been mentioned early on. I'm assuming she is talking about the casino manager.They're also showing a lot of pics of Dr. Lee out on the balcony measuring the railing.

They are advertising that Dr. Lee will be on Rita tonight. Should be an interesting night of TV.

[1corona4u]

Ok, about the sounds...here is some interesting info...well, to me anyway, LOL..........

 

 

Reverberation;

Reflection of sound waves off of surfaces can lead to one of two phenomenon - an echo or a reverberation. A reverberation often occurs in a small room with height, width, and length dimensions of approximately 17 meters or less. Why the magical 17 meters? The effect of a particular sound wave upon the brain endures for more than a tiny fraction of a second; the human brain keeps a sound in memory for up to 0.1 seconds. If a reflected sound wave reaches the ear within 0.1 seconds of the initial sound, then it seems to the person that the sound is prolonged. The reception of multiple reflections off of walls and ceilings within 0.1 seconds of each other causes reverberations - the prolonging of a sound. Since sound waves travel at about 340 m/s at room temperature, it will take approximately 0.1 s for a sound to travel the length of a 17 meter room and back, thus causing a reverberation. This is why reverberations is common in rooms with dimensions of approximately 17 meters or less.

 

Perhaps you have observed reverberations when talking in an empty room, when honking the horn while driving through a highway tunnel or underpass, or when singing in the shower. In auditoriums and concert halls, reverberations occasionally occur and lead to the displeasing garbling of a sound.

 

From everything I have read, reverberation does not occur in an environment with one side wide open, because the sound can escape, such as the ocean side from the canopy.....maybe Clete just said the word reverberate, but it didn't really?

 

Hey, it's physics...if it's wrong, it's wrong.:D

[1corona4u]

Corona' date=' Do you have a link for that post from "search4truth"? I keep doing a search for it and can't find it. I would love to read it.[/quote']

 

 

Here ya go.

 

http://tvshogal.blogspot.com/2005/07/cruising-med-murder-mystery-mayhem.html

[1corona4u]

Just watching Catherine Crier and Bree Smith said they are convinced it's murder and RC is covering it up. She also said that they think it's a crew member' date=' who had been mentioned early on. I'm assuming she is talking about the casino manager.They're also showing a lot of pics of Dr. Lee out on the balcony measuring the railing.[/size']

 

They are advertising that Dr. Lee will be on Rita tonight. Should be an interesting night of TV.

 

See, this is the kind of irrational stuff I don't get with them. Why would RCI cover it up if it were a crew member? They are just saying that to get the "wrongful death" suit going.

 

It would have been less bad publicity for RCI, if that were true, to just pay them a settlement and be done with it. That's what doesn't make sense to me...

 

And, it's not as if they would protect a murderer....that would be the last thing they would want on one of their ships.....

 

Oh, and I don't know if I can stand to watch Rita. I may just have to wait for Greta.

[hvsteve1]

So RCI refused to let Dr. Lee drop a life sized dummy off the balcony while a battery of news cameras ran. I can't imagine why?:rolleyes: Think of how many times that bit of tape would run on CNN and Fox. (They did tell him he could drop as many dummies as he wished from an identical sister ship in drydock.)

[stanford's girl]

Thanks for the links Corona and Kim!:cool:

Have to agree with Corona about the rantings of Bree Smith and her family. If they are proved wrong on all of this, I hope that they will apologize as loudly as they are talking now.:rolleyes:

[Fury1995]

The door being slammed would have rattled the balconies on either side, and possibly 1 deck below...maybe that's why the people on deck 7 didn't hear anything....

 

Or did they? I had read earlier on the Brilliance roll call board for this sailing (just after the ship disembarked these passengers) one of the CC'ers WAS in the deck 7 balcony cabin below the Smith's. She had stated on July 12th:

 

Re; the missing man on the ship -- our cabin's were at the site of the incident-- on the 7th floor below the man's balcony. I read a few news reports late last night -- and was surprised that both accounts I read were inaccurate -- I was also surprised at the mention of FBI being involved -- since we were not interviewed at all by any police at any ports. THe only interviews I knew that were conducted were by the cruise line's attorneys -- and this was on the last sea day. I have a feeling that the whole story might never be known.

 

Then there are several posts (from alot of media producers) begging for her and others(from that roll call board) to contact them. I assume if the media found them then so did the investigators. Did they FBI finally catch up to these people and get their statements? After a few posts to each other to contact privately in between, theres nothing else about it. What would be so important you would broadcast your telephone number on a message board???

 

July 15th:

 

Paul, call me asap....Linda 215-860-7655

 

July 26th:

 

Paul,

Please call me I misplaced your phone number.

 

Thank you,

Linda

 

Then on July 27th:

 

Barbara,

 

If you are still following this thread, could you please contact me by email? It is very important. My email address is the same as my screen name, adding @aol.com

 

Thanks very much!!

 

Paul (psygist)

 

Then nothing more.......

 

I am quite certain they have information about this that none of us may not have thought of yet (is that possible? lol). Surely there now is some type of testimony by those passengers on record which may contradict evreything we've heard by now, but have just kept away from the media... maybe for a very good reason??

 

If anyone had heard a thud (even with the balcony door closed) it wouldv'e been BarbaraM, right? I think that there are alot better witnesses out there than what we have seen so far. They are just doing what the FBI is telling them to do and keeping there mouths shut...

[1corona4u]

So RCI refused to let Dr. Lee drop a life sized dummy off the balcony while a battery of news cameras ran. I can't imagine why?:rolleyes: Think of how many times that bit of tape would run on CNN and Fox. (They did tell him he could drop as many dummies as he wished from an identical sister ship in drydock.)

 

And which ship would that be?

[Fury1995]

Also, in BarbaraM's post she makes reference to "our cabins".... plural. And I wonder what reports were "innacurate" she is referring to?

[stanford's girl]

(They did tell him he could drop as many dummies as he wished from an identical sister ship in drydock.)

Wonder if he will take them up on it?:rolleyes:

Also in all his findings, I wonder if Dr. Lee will take the weather, sea spray, how strong the winds were, temperature, how big the waves were that night, ....etc. etc. etc. on the night George went missing.

He can throw a hundred dummies off the ship and unless he knows all those elements, the test would be unreliable in my opinion.

[AFT_LOVER]

as she had gotten hundreds of email stating that she should get the people in 7206 with the blood next to their balcony railing & see what they heard, what they saw, etc. I have even stated that.

 

Reverb would rattle 7206 max on the 7th deck not 8 or 9.

 

One woman interviewed testified that she heard a scream, no one else did.

 

 

I'm sure Ken will think this is stupid, but what if the "thud" was not him hitting the canopy? I mean, it's steel....no matter how he fell, I'm not so sure that sound would have "reverberated", like Clete said. What would reverberate in my mind would be someone slamming the slider really hard........he fell 22 ft...I don't think that sound would have traveled up....I'll have to do some research on that.....

 

 

The door being slammed would have rattled the balconies on either side, and possibly 1 deck below...maybe that's why the people on deck 7 didn't hear anything....

[Barefoot_Pirate]

Stanford, I say it again, Dr. Lee's only mission is to find something to support a claim against RCCL. He wouldn't be a high priced consultant if he couldn't "find" something to point out!

 

The FBI has the real scoop, and what ever Mr. Moto comes up with will be suspect to me as being biased one demisional junk science. His fans can flame away.

[Fury1995]

I'm sure Ken will think this is stupid, but what if the "thud" was not him hitting the canopy? I mean, it's steel....no matter how he fell, I'm not so sure that sound would have "reverberated", like Clete said. What would reverberate in my mind would be someone slamming the slider really hard........he fell 22 ft...I don't think that sound would have traveled up....I'll have to do some research on that.......

 

Remember noises you may have heard on your balcony on one of your cruises. Ever have "noisy neighbors"? What about something/someone hitting the balcony divider? They are somewhat suspended off the ground, right? If something or somone hit that (fairly hard) or if maybe GH's foot kicked it on the way over the rail, could it make a "reverberation like" sound? I assume Clete's balcony door was closed at that point.

[Fury1995]

"epileptic convulsions"????

 

Anyone else catch this on the Abrams Report?

[wolfganghowell]

Kim - I agree, I have been surprised at Clete Hyman's varied and constant appearances. With all due respect to him, a law enforcement officer should know better than to appear on every media show known to humankind (ok - it's only SEEMED that way). The positive and fascinating part is that his story has stayed consistent whereas JHS has not. Yes he is a trained eye/ear BUT it seems that he is a small town sheriff and not someone necessarily experienced in something that has blown up like this. I have nothing against small towns or law enforcement but he may be a bit out of his element on this one but the media has latched on to him because we (the general public) give him a great deal of credence due to his background.

 

I agree - throwing the dummy off a docked ship is fairly meaningless without taking into account the ships speed, the wind, the waves, the motion of the ship at that location etc.

 

I don't believe the Smith's will ever apologize for their actions even if the FBI conclusively shows it to be an accident. I also think there was most likely a lot of gossip, innuendo, misinformation and exaggeration among passengers and staff for the remainder of that week on board that would cause everyone's heads to spin like Linda Blair's in the Exorcist. That is why I hope RCI's timeline is backed up by the 3 government entities involved because for every passenger who says they kept the cabin sealed and no one touched the canopy there will be another who says they were teaching ballroom dancing in that room.

[wolfganghowell]

Fury - where did you see or hear that one? That's a new one.