Technical Fire Discussion

[Goldryder]

I am fortunate cos I am on the mailing list for accident reports from both the MAIB and AAIB - Air Accident Investigation Branch. So I might get snippets of info through the post on this Star incident.

 

I can't stop thinking about another ship fire back in 1990, Scandinavian Star, she was set light to maliciously and it cost over 150 lives. There are some similarities in the way the fire spread and so forth.

 

http://www.fire.org.uk/marine/papers/scanstar.htm

 

Fire at sea is the greatest fear of any seaman, you are alone with no backup services to help you. This crew did a remarkable job on this occasion. I still have nagging doubts though about several aspects of the fire, where/what started it and the spread speed.

[CruiseWacker23]

Wookie thanks alot for that film coverage about the Deputy Fire Chief who was on as a passenger of the Star.

 

Cruisewacker did you by chance see that piece of film. it is on this thread #139. I am pretty sure he showed the Lido deck where he said that the floor buckled. Now that is on the top of the ship right above the Aloha deck, then Baja, then Caribe, and then Dolphin. Going from top to bottom. Thank you very much for your insight. This has been the great thread for getting some very good knowledge.

 

Marilyn

 

Marilyn

 

I did see the news footage of the interview with the DC. Its not surprising to me that the Lido floor buckled even though it was at least four floors above the suspected level of origin. Once this fire got started, it no doubt rolled vertically from deck to deck feeding off the varnished railings, plastics, floor matting and lexan. Imagine a snowball rolling down a hill gaining momentum and size. Greatest intensity was in the center of the obvious V pattern where the balconies have been melted away. As you go away from the center to either side, the structural damage to the balconies becomes less as the railings, even though sagging, are at least still visible. I thought it was a good interview. The DC was right, fires in sprinklered spaces are usually controlled with 1 to 4 sprinkler heads. If it takes more than 4 heads, something else played a part in the rapid fire spread to overcome the sprinklers.

Just an added piece of trivia: smoke detectors on average, if properly placed and maintained, detect smoke from an incipient fire within 30 seconds, sprinklers usually active (by heat) within 3 minutes of the fire's beginning.

 

CW

[ccrain]

I have pretty much perused all the threads, watched a lot of the video and seen the pictures. There is more speculation on what started the fire than I care to think about.

 

Now, I'd like to bring up a different thought.

 

I am absolutely amazed that there was not a huge loss of life. This fire was very intense, generating heat and lots of smoke at 3am in the morning! In the Caribbean, we routinely sleep with our balcony door open. I can't believe no one on this ship wasn't doing likewise.

 

This fire was clearly spreading from balcony to balcony, probably burning the blue matting, the windscreens and the resin chairs as it went. The color of the flames and the blackness of the smoke indicate a petrochemical base to the fire.

 

So now the question - How the heck did they stop it?

 

There is no clear access to the exterior balconies except from the top deck to spray water from. And I can't believe they would actually fight through a cabin to the balcony, that probably wasn't there anymore, and spray from there.

 

The whole scenario of putting the fire out indicates some pretty incredible ship handling, to "force" the fire back on itself using the motion of the ship, and some pretty brave fire fighters entering dark, enclosed and smoke filled spaces.

 

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this aspect of it from our resident fire fighters.

[CruiseWacker23]

To our experts - I am aware of some safety precautions in a fire like touching the door before opening and to stay low (like in corridors), but does it help at all to wet a washcloth or towel to breathe through as we work our way to safety? Would the cloth help filter out some of the soot and chemicals in the air or is it just better to make a run for it ASAP?

 

Saga,

Its more important to be able to stay as low and even quickly crawl if need be to escape the superheated gases and smoke. Trying to hold a wet towel or washcloth to your face may only hinder your ability to get low and crawl. If for some reason however you must remain in your room because the hallway is already too hot and smokey, then a wet towel at the bottom of the door might help keep the smoke out. The bottom line is early detection and escape by staying low. Whether in a hotel or a ship, remember always use the stairs and ALWAYS go down! (Heat and smoke rise). When on vacation, I always count the number of doors from my room or cabin to the stairs so that I can find the stairs even is visibility is poor from the smoke.

 

CW

[Cruise Cat]

Thanks to all the posters on this thread.

 

For those, especially the internet savy with fire fighting backgrounds, I believe if you want to know what the coast guard inspects you want to look on the coast guard website for the "Marine Safety Manual". Here is one of the items from a directive on it that on page 456 discusses fire safety, inspection and some history. Warning - this is an 803 page pdf document of several megs. The link was also dated 2003.

http://www.uscg.mil/ccs/cit/cim/directives/cim/cim%5F16000%5F7.pdf

 

For those of you discussing that it may have been intentionally set, then do we have to consider that there may be multiple origins of the fire? What about vents and such on the top (Lido?) deck above the fire areas as a means of entry (intentional) before the dampers would have closed?

 

What about chemicals from such things as the pool/spa, etc. (intentionally used, not stored properly in locker, etc.)

 

What about the self-service laundromats on some of the decks involved? (lint exhaust systems, etc. Maybe not as origin, but spread it faster?)

 

When modular sections are built and put into the ships during construction, are the fire stops in the electircal conduits, etc. in several places thoughout (between cabins and such) or only on the outside edges of the entire section?

 

I believe there was excellent crew response, but maybe we all do not understand some of the overall firefighting strategies on a cruise ship and mayh have a false sense of security and expectations (I think the pro firefighters on here do understand) Though they did a great job on this particular fire, I don't think we as passengers should ever expect that the onboard fire brigade is designed (equipment, strategy, equipment, staffing, training, etc.) to extinguish every fire possibility, which is why we should always be prepare to get to our muster stations and follow the orders of the crew. I know many industrial facilities throughout the US have on-site fire brigades to fiight fires, but if something like a large oil filled transformer catches fire, their job is simply to contain it by keeping a spray on it and surrounding areas to keep them as cool as possible until major help arives (local fire departments, etc.) The same is true for large area fires (god forbid) such as from a jet crash. There may be some fire situations that arise that we should always prepare ourselves to evacuate. We can't expect them to be able to combat everything, though we can hope they have contingencies for those with the highest probabilities. I'm hoping the professional fire fighters (especially the gentlemen from HAL) can enlighten us (as much as your protocols allow of course) and teach us on these things.

 

I think the wind blowing thing was inevitable in this anyway. Are the ships supposed to "turn into the wind" when there is a fire to ensure they can see and so the fire brigade with have a clear attack point on the fire?

 

Sorry - More questions than answers.

 

Chuck

[mii]

This is another question for CruiseWacker: I noticed on the still picture of the side of the ship where the fire started and you mentioned that the point of origin might be on the Dolphin deck and then sort of formed a V. I can see in the center of the pic where there is no more balconies on the Caribe, Baja and Aloha. My question is on the very left of the pic where the two lifeboats are there is a section which is on the Baja deck two decks above the liveboats that show no balcony railings at all. How can those balconies which are at the left on the pic and then skip over to the center of the pic burn like that so far apart. I truly hope that I asked the question that you can understand.:)

 

Marilyn

[CruiseWacker23]

This is another question for CruiseWacker: I noticed on the still picture of the side of the ship where the fire started and you mentioned that the point of origin might be on the Dolphin deck and then sort of formed a V. I can see in the center of the pic where there is no more balconies on the Caribe, Baja and Aloha. My question is on the very left of the pic where the two lifeboats are there is a section which is on the Baja deck two decks above the liveboats that show no balcony railings at all. How can those balconies which are at the left on the pic and then skip over to the center of the pic burn like that so far apart. I truly hope that I asked the question that you can understand.:)

 

Marilyn

 

My DW saw the same thing and asked the same question. (Great question by the way). Unfortunately I can only speculate. That area, although severely damaged, is not quite as extensive as that in the middle of the V. My guess is they attacked the fire on both sides of that cabin noted on the Dolphin Deck. I say the Dolphin because that deck is the first to extend outward beyond the verandahs, thus giving them a better angle to direct the hoselines. My guess is that the area you are pointing out was just out of the range of the first couple of hoselines and burned alittle longer until a knockdown could be made.

The other possibility of course would be two points of origin which at this time would be premature to speculate and something we all certainly hope is not the case. If by chance there were two points of origin, it will come out in the investigation.

[LaChico]

I am a aircraft structural mechanic with 35 years in the industry. I am not an expert on fires but through the years, i have been involved with burnt structures,mostly aluminum aircraft. Pure aluminum melts at 1100 degrees & for a fire to get this hot an acellarent must be presant. therefore I think this fire was intentionantly set or was an electrical fire ,probably not a cigarette or cigar thrown onto a balcony. I have seen aircraft belly in and skid on the runway and after the hydraulic fluids burn away ,the fire goes out. Iguess it depends on how much combustible fuel is involved. Also when a fire is being fueled by petrolium based ecellarent spraying water on it just spreads it more. A chemical based fire agent such as Hallogen needs to be used for this type of fire.

OK thats my 2 cents.

 

I've really enjoyed this thread because of the rational comments and real experts such as CruiseWhacker. It's refreshing that this hasn't turned into a snippy thread that some has (smokers vs. non smokers going at oneanother).:)

Later,Larry

[Goldryder]

This is a short article about the fire on Diamond Princess while she was being finished. She caught fire through a weld spark hitting materials on deck. The ship is engulfed and she is docked. Now consider an equally small fire on a ship moving at full speed of 20 knots with sea breezes and you can get an idea how the fire spread so wide and so fast.....it also shows just how great a job the crew did to get it out too...

 

http://www.geocities.com/uksteve.geo/terrible3.html

[Princess Chatterer]

Reported in rec.travel.cruises

 

"My husband & I were on deck 9 (last cabin) on the port side. We

observed huge burning embers landing on our balcony including the seat

cushions and they did not catch fire. I think there is more to this

than a flicked cigarette."

[CruiseWacker23]

One last little observation on the fire photo and then I'll quit hogging up the thread. If you look real close, the glass on the Lido Deck in the top center of the picture is most severely blackend with smoke and soot in the center only. Even above the other heavy fire area to the left it is noticeably cleaner than that in the middle. I would look straight down from the center to the Caribe Deck for the probable point of origin.

 

CW...out :)

[meemeec]

Thanks, again, to all of you who are so generously sharing your expertise and for keeping this thread one of the most well-informed and interesting.

While reading about intense heat, accellerants, fuel, combusition, petroleum bases, etc and the difficulty in accessing, controlling and extinguishing this fire I am reminded how grateful I am for the good training the personnel on the ship were given.

Maybe there was a whole series of things that went "wrong" for this fire to be so intense then, likewise, maybe a whole series of things went "right" to quell the fire and prevent a larger tragedy.

[wvjohn]

thanks to all the professionals who are sharing their experience and to the others for their links - Seems like we'll all have to wait for the forensics to be done but the input from the CC members is great!

[DeepWaterMariner]

Many of the posts have assumed that there was the normal strong wind that comes with a ship being underway, particularly if there is a head wind. Has that been firmly established? If there is a tail wind that nearly matches the speed of the ship the affect on deck is dead calm. While it is likely that it was windy there is also a significant possibility that it wasn't...of course the accident investigators already know this. Even passengers could get this wrong since they probably didn't get out on deck until after the ship began to manuever to fight the fire.

[Goldryder]

Many of the posts have assumed that there was the normal strong wind that comes with a ship being underway, particularly if there is a head wind. Has that been firmly established? If there is a tail wind that nearly matches the speed of the ship the affect on deck is dead calm. While it is likely that it was windy there is also a significant possibility that it wasn't...of course the accident investigators already know this. Even passengers could get this wrong since they probably didn't get out on deck until after the ship began to manuever to fight the fire.

 

 

If you look at the run of photos from the webcam onboard at the time, it does give a very clear indication of the wind strength and direction...in a matter of minutes the funnel is all but obliterated by thick, and probably acrid, smoke...

 

http://www.houseofpancake.com/tmp/star_fire/

 

The stills are at minute intervals.

[alibail]

 

I believe there was excellent crew response, but maybe we all do not understand some of the overall firefighting strategies on a cruise ship and mayh have a false sense of security and expectations (I think the pro firefighters on here do understand) Though they did a great job on this particular fire, I don't think we as passengers should ever expect that the onboard fire brigade is designed (equipment, strategy, equipment, staffing, training, etc.) to extinguish every fire possibility, which is why we should always be prepare to get to our muster stations and follow the orders of the crew. I know many industrial facilities throughout the US have on-site fire brigades to fiight fires, but if something like a large oil filled transformer catches fire, their job is simply to contain it by keeping a spray on it and surrounding areas to keep them as cool as possible until major help arives (local fire departments, etc.) The same is true for large area fires (god forbid) such as from a jet crash. There may be some fire situations that arise that we should always prepare ourselves to evacuate. We can't expect them to be able to combat everything, though we can hope they have contingencies for those with the highest probabilities. I'm hoping the professional fire fighters (especially the gentlemen from HAL) can enlighten us (as much as your protocols allow of course) and teach us on these things.

 

Chuck

 

With regard to the comment above, P&O / P&O Princess ships carry the latest fire fighting equipment. All officers and we'll call them 'nautical' side of the ship crew have done fire fighting courses at college, although this can never compare to the training given to firefighters who do this for a living.

 

The ships have sprinkler systems fitted throughout to contain the fire until it can be extinguished.

 

The ships are also designed into compartments, if uve ever banged into the wall in your cabin, chances are you'll know just how thin it actually is (You can normally hear people talking in adjacent rooms). The walls within a section will not (in my opinion) contain a fire if it starts within a cabin. However the fire is extremly unlikley to spread outwith a particular section due to automatically closing fire doors (and the walls being more substantial to prevent it spreading).

 

The effectivness of the sprinkler system would also depend on how many heads were actually activated. Also bear in mind just because the fire alarm has triggered, does not mean the sprinkler system activates (the sprinklers only activate when the wax in the glass tube heats up smashing the glass allowing the water to flow).

 

As mentioned previously, the crew require time to 1) get changed into fire fighting equipment, 2) get to the fire, 3) get the hoses to the fire, 4) ensure that all passengers and crew have been safely evacuated from the area that is effected, 5) tackle the fire.

 

Even if staying in a hotel or anywhere for that matter you should be aware of the evacuatation or emergency procedures (hence why passenger muster drills are carried out within 24 hours of departure - in most cases before departure) so that passengers are aware of the emergency alarm and the procedures they should follow.

[virginia cruisers]

I belive tha "fataba951" has the best theory on the cause of this fast

spreading fire. It is possible that someone was "cooking meth" on their

balcony. This theory needs a reviewed by the experts.

[Firefighterhoop]

A few thougts that I have brought up before -

 

1) FIre sprinklers are designed to slow down a room and contents fire, not neccesarily fully extinguish, which I beleive they did. I don't think the fire spread into the hallways or from room to room, I believe it spread from balcony to balcony and from balcony to room.

 

2) Just like several hundred similar events in apartment buildings, once a deck becomes involved in fire, there is nothing to stop other decks from becoming involved, and with the wind of a cruise ship, (I.E. the 20mph movement) so there was no way to stop each balcony from reaching it's fire point, and starting on fire.

 

3) That being said, I think that the fire safety system worked. When was the last time you heard of a fire in an apartment building or hotel that destroyed 120plus appartments/rooms with over 3500people (Crew and guests) and no one was killed from a direct cause of fire. (Yes, I do know one was killed due to a heart-a-stroke, and less than 15 injured...THat is an amazingly low number!

[Firefighterhoop]

CruiseWacker (may I call you CW?) and our other experts - Please give us any educated guesses you may have about when it is reasonable to expect an official preliminary report and eventually a final report.

 

We know the ship is Bermuda registered, we know the NTSB and U.S. Coast Guard plus innumerable insurance companies will investigate the fire. Do we know which authority will be primarily responsible for running the investigation then which authority will be issuing the final report?

 

When the news media gets leaked information long before the final official reports are issued, I assume we will have to allow for what I call the "Oz Factor" - rumor and speculation that turns out to be inaccurate.

 

Thoughts?

 

I would say a minimum of two weeks, unless, a witness comes forward with a witnessed cause of the fire.....

[mii]

One last little observation on the fire photo and then I'll quit hogging up the thread. If you look real close, the glass on the Lido Deck in the top center of the picture is most severely blackend with smoke and soot in the center only. Even above the other heavy fire area to the left it is noticeably cleaner than that in the middle. I would look straight down from the center to the Caribe Deck for the probable point of origin.

 

CW...out :)

 

I truly wish that you would re-consider coming back to this thread. You are not hogging it; there are many of you who are really knowledgeable on fire safety etc. This thread has been the most informative and minus the bashing, inuendoes, cigarette smokers- non smokers etc. this thread has been tops in my book. CruiseWacker23 thank you very much for your considerable knowledge.

 

Marilyn

[Tater1800]

Here are a couple of photos that may be different. They were posted elsewhere but should be here.

 

View from Margaritaville across the bay:

 

 

View of Lido by the windows. Notice the floor.

 

[Tater1800]

I haven't seen this posted anywhere so I will.

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/060323b.htm

 

NTSB Advisory

National Transportation Safety Board

Washington, DC 20594

March 23, 2006

 

NTSB SENDS INVESTIGATOR TO ASSIST IN CRUISE SHIP FIRE INVESTIGATION

Washington, D.C. - The National Transportation Safety Board has sent an investigator to Jamaica to assist in the investigation of today's fire on board the Bermuda registered cruise ship Star Princess. The United Kingdom's Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB) will lead the investigation.

"This is an important industry for the United States because every year millions of Americans enjoy their vacations on board cruise ships. We appreciate the opportunity to work closely with the MAIB in this investigation," said NTSB Acting Chairman Mark V. Rosenker.

The NTSB will participate in the investigation under the provisions of the International Maritime Organization's Code for Investigation of Marine Casualties and Incidents.

All information regarding the investigation will be released through the MAIB.

NTSB Contact: Terry Williams, (202) 314-6100

[Cruise Cat]

The webshots link below shows a good picture (non fire relate) of the Star Princess balconies on the other side of the ship. For those of us who have not been on the ship, it gives a good picture of the balconies on those decks and what is above it.

 

Star Princess Balconies:

[Ula]

Kind of funny first day when on the phone with mom I told her this sounded more like someone cooking Meth than smoking. But that is huge speculation, and I just can not see that on a ship. It would be the same as saying some one brought on a Hibachi and was cooking hot dogs on their deck.

We need to not speculate and let the experts do their job and trust we all will get the facts on what happened. That will take time, this is an incident that all the cruise industry is going to take seriously. The potential for loss of life was great.

[Tater1800]

Here is a view from the Sky Lounge. The quality is poor due to the tinted windows. There is some indication of the burn pattern but the view angle makes analysis difficult.