Technical Fire Discussion

[Katelab]

It appears there are not sprinklers on the balcony. It seems like sufficient sprinkler capacity must be added to all of the balconies regardless of the cause of the fire.

 

I do not know if the crew was very good or somewhat lucky, but god bless them.

[cruuuzgal]

I have no idea how the fire started. That said, here are my assumptions about the safety systems, based on what those who had cabins affected by the fire said:

 

- they "were allowed back into the room" so the hallways must have been structurally secure - no fire spread to them, just smoke (from the pics that I've seen);

 

- "the locks were melted and the door had to be kicked in" which means to me that firefighting crew had not entered BUT

 

- "there was water on the floor of the cabin" which means that if no crew went in, then the sprinkler system must have been working to help extiguish the flames.

 

The fire doors must have worked as well, since there appears to be only smoke damage to the rest of the ship closest to the affected area.

 

Just a few thoughts. Don't flame me! (no pun intended).

 

On another note:

I have been on many cruises and talked with many crew members - they work long hours for little pay. Some of them may have just gotten off duty an hour or so before the alarms sounded, yet they were expected to perform for at least ANOTHER 12 straight hours in what ever capacity was needed of them. I think they are to be commended for their professionalism, compassion, and ability to maintain passenger stability under such stressful conditions.

 

Good job, guys! Hope Princes recognizes what a great job you all did and gives you some kind of bonus!

[Saga Ruby]

CW, no "out" for you. You and DW come over here and sit with us while you continue your expert input which is never ever hogging this thread. Reasoned, mature input is always valuable. Besides, at my age and squinting thru trifocals, your comments keep me from severe eyestrain while looking at the fire-damage photos on my monitor!

 

To everybody - am I correct that the Star is going to Nassau for the MAIB inspection and drydock for repair and refurbishment overhaul? Or will the Nassau stop probably be only for the authorities' inspection then the ship goes on to parts unknown for safety and cosmetic repair?

[Cruise Cat]

Are there anymore ships on order of that class? If so, one option would be to sail back to the shipyard in Italy to have the entire section replaced taking parts from another under construction.

 

Also, here is another webshots picture of what it looks like looking up from a balcony on Star Princess:

 

Looking Up

 

Possibly looks like a sprinkler head up there??

[CruiseWacker23]

Firefighterhoop is exactly right. The fire protection system (sprinklers) did their job. So far, from what we have heard the fire started somehow on the verandah area. It spread vertically and horizonally and as it did, some of the verandah doors failed and the products (smoke, heat and flames) entered some of rooms that way. Each time the fire entered a room, the sprinklers stopped it before it consumed the room and extended to the hallway. Had the sprinkler system not operated as well as it did, this ship would have been toast! One person dead from a heart attack and several others with smoke inhalation.....amazing. I am sure the cruise industry and their insurance carriers will address the issue with the flame spread across the verandahs.

[Tater1800]

On another note:

I have been on many cruises and talked with many crew members - they work long hours for little pay. Some of them may have just gotten off duty an hour or so before the alarms sounded, yet they were expected to perform for at least ANOTHER 12 straight hours in what ever capacity was needed of them. I think they are to be commended for their professionalism, compassion, and ability to maintain passenger stability under such stressful conditions.

 

Good job, guys! Hope Princes recognizes what a great job you all did and gives you some kind of bonus!

 

I second the above. We didn't see our steward all day on Thursday. He had already earned an extra tip but he now deserved more. We found him standing watch in the fire area around 9:30pm. Knowing we could leave early on Friday we decided to tip him early. When we got back with the tip he was off duty. He found us, bringing fresh towels. We did what we could to offset his losses.

 

Princess, if you are reading this, please find some way to keep this crew employed. They saved our butts and yours too.

[D4]

To everybody - am I correct that the Star is going to Nassau for the MAIB inspection and drydock for repair and refurbishment overhaul? Or will the Nassau stop probably be only for the authorities' inspection then the ship goes on to parts unknown for safety and cosmetic repair?

 

My understanding it is going to Nassau for the inspection and then they'll decide what happens next. I think the people on the 4/2 cruise still haven't been told if their cruise is cancelled or not (even though most of us think it will be.)

 

And I agree, CW - don't leave us. We value your insight.

[RHefley228]

When on vacation, I always count the number of doors from my room or cabin to the stairs so that I can find the stairs even is visibility is poor from the smoke.

 

An excellent suggestion. On an airliner, before takeoff I always count the number of seatbacks from where I'm sitting to the wing exits so that I can find them even if I can't see them, but I never thought to do this in a hotel or ship.

[loungelizard]

I read today that the Star was heading to Freeport.

[lookingforlastminutedeals]

First of all I want to give my condolences to the family of the Mr. Richard Liffridge who passed away due to a heart attack during the fire.

 

A ship can be repaired, a human that died cannot be brought back alive...

 

Reading all information in this forum it is clear that in general people cannot foresee everything, neither can I.

 

However the following system could help:

 

for detection: camera's connected to an advanced system similar to license plate recognition / face recognition / biometrics with

color temperature recognition combined with temperate sensors.

 

to prevent further fire spreading:

 

An external sprinkler system.

 

I noticed that some people warned that sometimes it might be too cold

for such a system and if it would become cold that the system

could freeze or stop functioning, depending on the weather condition.

 

This can be avoided by having seperate systems, similar to break systems used in cars. Also there could be a sprinkler system connected to a

system that circulates (and preheats) the water to 10 - 20 degrees Celcius if the outside temperature is 5 degrees Celcius or lower to prevent that the water will freeze.

 

There is a reason for my way of thinking: sprinkler systems

saved lives in the past and if you cannot use them outside

you should modify the concept so it can be used.

 

 

Regards from the netherlands

 

Hans Hörchner

[suefalls]

Very tragic event on the Star Princess. And, I can't help thinking about (hope not) is Asama Bin Ladin involeved in this? What do you think?

 

 

I also had the same thought. Hope that is not the case, and only an unfortunate accident, with problems with alarms etc. just a bad coincidence

[saltysam]

Here is an interesting comment I found in one of the news articles. It says that the Star's fire suppression system is carbon dioxide gas. There was no mention of water as part of the system. We keep assuming "sprinklers" means water. This may be why water damage has not been an issue. Those in the know, how would this type of system affect the fire in the final analysis?

[DeepWaterMariner]

Original quote from Goldryder:

If you look at the run of photos from the webcam onboard at the time, it does give a very clear indication of the wind strength and direction...in a matter of minutes the funnel is all but obliterated by thick, and probably acrid, smoke...

 

Goldryder, all the pictures indicate to me is that there is smoke between the camera and the stack. It could be blowing back by the stack it or could be swirling up the side and obscuring the stack. It's not conclusive to me about wind strength or direction.

[CruiseWacker23]

We have had technology for years that has provided sprinkler systems in areas that are prone to freezing. My guess is the only reason the cruise lines have not sprinklered the balconey/verandah areas is because the normal fire load is so minimal, it wasn't worth the extra cost. I'm sure they will re-evaluate that thinking now. No one expected this type fire propogation across the verandah space I'm sure.

 

Ok gang...pull up a chair for "Sprinklers 101"

 

Automatic fire sprinkler systems can be divided into two types: wet pipe and dry pipe. Wet pipe systems are the ones most of you are familiar with, in the malls, schools, office buildings etc. They consist of a network of pipes that start at a water source, go through a valve that detects water flow or movement and branch out to cover all areas of the protected bldg. The smaller branch lines have the sprinkler heads that, contrary to what you see on TV, operate individually as the head is exposed to a certain temperature for a certain amount of time. The entire pipe assembly is charged with static water (water at rest). Heat from a fire (a head for an ordinary hazard is normally 155 degrees) causes the head to open and allow water to spray out in a predetermined direction. They discharge at 35 gallons of water per minute or more

and the heads are spaced so that every area is covered. Within 1 minute after the water is allowed to move in the pipe because a head opened, the valve will sense this and transmitt the fire alarm. Unless the occupant has automatic closing heads, the open head will continue to discharge the water (even after the fire is out) until the system is shut down or the head plugged. In my 37 years in the fire service, usually one head controls (and usually extinguishes) the fire. The maximum that should be required is 4.

Dry pipe systems are just like wet pipes except for one thing. The valve is designed that it is held closed by air pressure on the bldg side which is greater than the water pressure on the supply side. The water source side of the valve is charged with water, the other side of the valve to the branch lines are filled with air, thus not being a threat to freeze. The sprinkler heads are exactly the same. When a dry pipe sprinkler head opens, initially air comes out but as the air is left out and the air pressure reduces on that side of the valve, the valve is pushed open by the water pressure, water fills the pipe and eventually finds its way out of the open sprinkler head.

Also contrary to popular belief, sprinkler systems vary rarely malfunction and spring a leak. Pipes get ripped off by contractors, tow motors etc but they do not go off by themselves. Imagine sprinklers as little firefighters on duty all of the time without a break. No matter how bad the conditions get, these little firefighters will be there discharging the water. Smoke detectors save lives because they alert us very early on that there is a problem and if we evacuate when we should, we have a happy ending. Sprinklers help save lives by protecting our escape routes but also save us millions of dollars because they contain or extinguish the fires and minimize property damage.

 

I hope this helps and didn't bore anyone. CW :D

[D4]

CW, thanks for coming back! I learned a lot from your explanation.

[Saga Ruby]

Hey, CW, ain't nobody bored to learn about fire systems, causes, possibilities, personal safety. I'm like the other guy - I always count aisle seats on airplanes to nearest exit but never thought about cabin doors to stairs. I do now.

 

Tell me something - a long time ago, a lieutenant with the Dallas Fire Dept. was gently teasing me about standpipes in old buildings. He pointed out that the water charged in the pipes had been there for a l-o-n-g time and the water quality coming out of the sprinkler heads would be one step above liquid rust.

 

Is that true?

[Tater1800]

Here is an interesting comment I found in one of the news articles. It says that the Star's fire suppression system is carbon dioxide gas. There was no mention of water as part of the system. We keep assuming "sprinklers" means water. This may be why water damage has not been an issue. Those in the know, how would this type of system affect the fire in the final analysis?

 

I am not an expert but I do know that carbon dioxide is an effective fire suppressant that will not add to the damage. You reminded me of something that I noted after the fire. The sprinklers did look unusual. Here is a photo for the experts to identify. The image is over-enlarged and pixilated but someone should recognize it.

 

[Cruise Cat]

For those of you that were discussing increased standards of Fire Protection on Cruise Ships, here are some interesting articles/links from the International Maritime Organization:

 

Larger ships, new safety challenges

 

Sub-Committee on Fire Protection (FP), 50th session: 9-13 January 2006

 

Other/Previous FP Sub-Committee Minutes

 

Here is a link to some of the newer high pressure water mist systems such as was installed on the new Queen Mary 2 (refer to page 3). It is a slow loading 1 meg pdf and also remember it is a "sales brochure". (In other words, I would see what someone like CW says about the claims they make before believing them at face value)

 

http://www.cfaa.ca/journal-2004-summer-water.pdf

[LustforLife]

P.S.....I TOTALLY agree w/ the 3 principle. It ALWAYS happens that way. I don't think the ferry accident is quite it though. I imagine it'll be more cruise related. (But, yes, I am superstitious also)

 

I believe the third (or really the first) was the Princess LIST. No one was killed but it was certainly a scary time, I imagine. I think people were injured as well.

[Princess Chatterer]

"We do not know how the fire started," Benson said. "It broke out in the passenger accommodation. We don't know exactly where it started."

 

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=122&art_id=qw1143172803859B242

 

Julie Benson is "a spokesperson for Santa Clarita, California-based Princess"

[CruiseWacker23]

Ruby...your Lt friend was correct. By code, sprinkler systems are required these days to be checked and flowed on a yearly basis. Even so, I have smelled sprinkler water that has smelled every bit as bad as sewer water!

 

Tater...I am sure that the engine rooms, mechanical rooms etc have CO2 systems. On your next cruise, check out the doors leading to areas protected with CO2 systems. I bet they have a warning on the door. I doubt that the fire protection system in the cabins are CO2. Here is why: As stated earlier by someone else, there needs to be 3 things come together for a fire to begin; heat, fuel and oxygen. Take any of the 3 things away and the fire goes out. Problem: the contents of the cabins are what we refer to as Class A materials, ie, paper, wood, textiles...ordinary stuff. CO2 is not recommended or even rated for that matter for extinguishing a Class A fire. CO2 extinguishes fires by suffocating them. The problem is as soon as the CO2 dissipates, if the other two components are still in place, the fire re-iginites. CO2 is designed for burning liquid (Class B) and electrical (Class C) fires only. Not only that, if for some reason you were in a room or hallway when a CO2 sytem went off....think about it, if the fire can't breathe, neither can you! The newest sprinkler heads on the market do not look anything like the old conventional styles. It could be that they are self-closing heads which really look different.

[Dolphins]

Here is an interesting comment I found in one of the news articles. It says that the Star's fire suppression system is carbon dioxide gas. There was no mention of water as part of the system. We keep assuming "sprinklers" means water. This may be why water damage has not been an issue. Those in the know, how would this type of system affect the fire in the final analysis?

 

Carbon Dioxide systems cannot be used in sleeping areas because their activation would deprive the occupants of oxygen. Be assured that the cabin sprinkler systems on cruise ships provide water.

[Princess Chatterer]

"They stopped the boat and turned it around because of the wind direction, which was making the fire very hard to fight. They shut off all the air conditioning. Our muster station was in the computer lab. It got very hot. There were people lying on the floor," Strasenburgh said, adding that at no time did she see anyone panic.

 

http://www.bangornews.com/news/templates/?a=131100&z=177

[CruiseWacker23]

Tater..In regards to your question concerning the unusual looking sprinkler head. I work tomorrow in the Fire Dept and one of my firefighters working my platoon was actually on the Star a couple of months ago. I'll ask him what type of system(s) they have onboard. I'll get back to you on Tues.

 

CW

[Cruise Cat]

CW - Take a look at that picture in the article Wookie just put the link in for. Don't know which deck, but the floor mat on the balcony is not even discolored while the plastic deck chairs are toast. Might help rule out the mats.

 

Picture

 

Chuck