NCL/NCLA distinction (or lack thereof).

[Retired not Expired]

This is not unlike hundreds of other corporations. Call it what ever you would like but it is still two different products. And to try to compare those two products is still apples to oranges.

[VegasGreen]

This is not unlike hundreds of other corporations. Call it what ever you would like but it is still two different products. And to try to compare those two products is still apples to oranges.

 

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Retired not Expired]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

 

Just what I said. I've sailed on both NCL & NCLA and believe it is important for new cruisers and those who have sailed neither NCL or NCLA to know that they are different. Just because you have sailed on one doesn't mean you can expect the same on the other. They should be judged separately.

 

Myself, I loved the American crew and am going back in January. But it is still different than an International crew. Activities are different as NCLA is for the islands and NCL more for the cruising. I set my expectations up for each one just as I do if I sail RCCL or any other line.

 

Many corporations control several companies including having common departments doing the work for those companies as well as a common CEO and board. This is nothing new. NCL & NCLA are two different products.

[dwrist]

Thank you VegasGreen for your postings... You are correct and you have the background and experience to back your position.... Thanks for explaining the organization of NCL and their Hawaiian operation known (AKA)as NCLA...

 

What makes you think he has the background and experience to back his position??? Because he says so on an internet message board??? Get real in your thinking, anyone can say anything they want on an internet board, true or false. The only person that knows is the poster. Frankly, I do not believe him. I believe what the company says in their public profile which you can find on the Genting site.

[VegasGreen]

Just what I said. I've sailed on both NCL & NCLA and believe it is important for new cruisers and those who have sailed neither NCL or NCLA to know that they are different. Just because you have sailed on one doesn't mean you can expect the same on the other. They should be judged separately.

 

Myself, I loved the American crew and am going back in January. But it is still different than an International crew. Activities are different as NCLA is for the islands and NCL more for the cruising. I set my expectations up for each one just as I do if I sail RCCL or any other line.

 

Many corporations control several companies including having common departments doing the work for those companies as well as a common CEO and board. This is nothing new. NCL & NCLA are two different products.

 

I agree completely. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough -- the ONBOARD products are completely different. I tried to stress that in my posts. I was simply sharing my experience with the shoreside operations in Miami in comparison to the way other cruise corporations handle separate brands.

[Retired not Expired]

I agree completely. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough -- the ONBOARD products are completely different. I tried to stress that in my posts. I was simply sharing my experience with the shoreside operations in Miami in comparison to the way other cruise corporations handle separate brands.

 

No problem. I wasn't arguing what you were saying, only the concept someone was trying to make from it. To me, it is very important that people researching NCL/NCLA know the difference.

[VegasGreen]

What makes you think he has the background and experience to back his position??? Because he says so on an internet message board??? Get real in your thinking, anyone can say anything they want on an internet board, true or false. The only person that knows is the poster. Frankly, I do not believe him. I believe what the company says in their public profile which you can find on the Genting site.

 

Wow. :rolleyes: :confused: :eek: Okay then... explain to me what purpose it would serve for me to make up some story as mundane as THIS?!? I didn't rip anyone or pump anyone up -- I just explained the way certain things are structured in Miami and the way it is presented to most employees in the Miami office.

 

What DON'T you believe exactly??? What did I say that contradicts the Genting site???

 

You don't believe what I said as far as how parts of the corporate office is structured? Fine.. as Shoreguy (who almost everyone in Miami knows and who knows more than most of the folks who work there) said, there is NO attempt to differentiate the products in the brochures. In addition, there is NO ncla.com and NO nclamerica.com... how is that similar to ANY of the other cruise lines under a CC or RCI banner??

 

For example: http://ncl.com/nclweb/fleet/shipInformation.html?shipCode=PRIDE+HAWA

 

All the NCLA ships are right there on the NCL website, with NCL logos (and NO NCLA logo in site, save the tiny glimpse at the ship's funnel).

 

The NCLA itineraries and ships and ALL the contact info is right there on NCL.com, mixed in with all the other NCL ships, with all the contact info exactly the same.

 

You can click on "Hawaii" as the destination and see the Sun and the Wind right alongside the Pride ships, with no NCLA logos or mention to be found.

 

Compare all of that to how Celebrity, Princess, HAL, Costa, Cunard, etc. are run... (these are the comparisons I was trying to rebuff)

 

I could go on forever. Vastly different onboard experience, not a separate cruise line.

 

If I was going to make up some wild story, I would HOPE i could do a lot better than THIS....

[VegasGreen]

No problem. I wasn't arguing what you were saying, only the concept someone was trying to make from it. To me, it is very important that people researching NCL/NCLA know the difference.

 

Oh, you're EXACTLY right about that. I never got to go on a full-on sailing on a NCLA ship, just did a preview on PoAM, and in that one day alone the difference was evident. Not necessarily BAD, just... very different.

[Deck10 007]

I like the analogy of the Chevy and the Caddy. In this case the Chevy would be an offshoot of the Caddy.

(Good work Jim Gullup, you have said something sensible at last and I have learned something from you here )

The similarity between the Chevy and the NCLA would be that the Chevy is breaking down very often and in this case the NCLA ,has far too many complaints. In the land where "satifaction gaurantee " is more or less a byword of the American consumer market one has to wonder what is the future of NCLA.

When Star Cruises was started 13 years ago they hired an iInternational crew and paid competitive wages. But over the years these have been replaced by an Asian crew at a small fraction of the original pay. Hopefully some other posters may have some insights into the crew situation at NCL for us.

When Star Cruises bought over NCL things must have look more than right in the Hawaiin market. The have this large modern cruise ship (formerly known as the Super Star Leo now known as the NCL Spirit) which can do 30 knots and can reach a foreign port (fannng island,1000 miles away) Under the existing law they have 3 impotant strengths going for them. 1) their killer app known as frestyle dining , 2) this extremely low cost Asian crew and 3) the new casino income stream which is the parent's company forte.

Then the impossible happened. The local Sanator managed to get the Federal law changed specifally to prevent them from doing this.

Inspite of this Star Cruises made the fateful decision to go ahead and operate out of Hawaii and NCLA was born.

2 of the 3 strengths is now gone and they took on the killer known as American labour.

Now I know Americans are enraged by my comments here. Let me say that I mean no disrespect or is dismissive of American labour. Americans are just as sensitive about their national pride as anybody else. I have great respect for American labour. I think they are the most produtive per hour of output in the world. They rightly can enjoy their highest standard of living and its attendent anbiant lifestyle.

But we are now in the gobal labour market and you have to compete against the third world worker. Star Cruises worked their crew incredibly hard. I myself have exeperienced the backjack dealer fainting at the blackjack table I was playing on due to exhaustion from being overworked. The decision to go ahead with American labour and NCLA is the decision of Star Cruises. What is the future for NCLA? It is of interest to note that Star Cruises lost $34M in the last quater whereas Carnival reported a 12% increase in profit.

[dwrist]

Wow. :rolleyes: :confused: :eek: Okay then... explain to me what purpose it would serve for me to make up some story as mundane as THIS?!? I didn't rip anyone or pump anyone up -- I just explained the way certain things are structured in Miami and the way it is presented to most employees in the Miami office.

 

What DON'T you believe exactly??? What did I say that contradicts the Genting site???

 

You don't believe what I said as far as how parts of the corporate office is structured? Fine.. as Shoreguy (who almost everyone in Miami knows and who knows more than most of the folks who work there) said, there is NO attempt to differentiate the products in the brochures. In addition, there is NO ncla.com and NO nclamerica.com... how is that similar to ANY of the other cruise lines under a CC or RCI banner??

 

For example: http://ncl.com/nclweb/fleet/shipInformation.html?shipCode=PRIDE+HAWA

 

All the NCLA ships are right there on the NCL website, with NCL logos (and NO NCLA logo in site, save the tiny glimpse at the ship's funnel).

 

The NCLA itineraries and ships and ALL the contact info is right there on NCL.com, mixed in with all the other NCL ships, with all the contact info exactly the same.

 

You can click on "Hawaii" as the destination and see the Sun and the Wind right alongside the Pride ships, with no NCLA logos or mention to be found.

 

Compare all of that to how Celebrity, Princess, HAL, Costa, Cunard, etc. are run... (these are the comparisons I was trying to rebuff)

 

I could go on forever. Vastly different onboard experience, not a separate cruise line.

 

If I was going to make up some wild story, I would HOPE i could do a lot better than THIS....

 

http://www.genting.com/groupprofile/sc.htm:)

[VegasGreen]

http://www.genting.com/groupprofile/sc.htm:)

 

I just don't really get what you're challenging here, besides the fact that you say I never worked at NCL and made this all up.... still wonder what my motive would possibly be, and still wonder what you're challenging that I've said.... are you challenging the brand new NCL website, or the lack of any NCLA materials, or who handles what at corporate... that's all stuff you can pretty much see....

 

... just such a weird thing to try and prove wrong.. I guess I just don't understand what you're going for here.

[VegasGreen]

I like the analogy of the Chevy and the Caddy. In this case the Chevy would be an offshoot of the Caddy.

(Good work Jim Gullup, you have said something sensible at last and I have learned something from you here )

The similarity between the Chevy and the NCLA would be that the Chevy is breaking down very often and in this case the NCLA ,has far too many complaints. In the land where "satifaction gaurantee " is more or less a byword of the American consumer market one has to wonder what is the future of NCLA.

When Star Cruises was started 13 years ago they hired an iInternational crew and paid competitive wages. But over the years these have been replaced by an Asian crew at a small fraction of the original pay. Hopefully some other posters may have some insights into the crew situation at NCL for us.

When Star Cruises bought over NCL things must have look more than right in the Hawaiin market. The have this large modern cruise ship (formerly known as the Super Star Leo now known as the NCL Spirit) which can do 30 knots and can reach a foreign port (fannng island,1000 miles away) Under the existing law they have 3 impotant strengths going for them. 1) their killer app known as frestyle dining , 2) this extremely low cost Asian crew and 3) the new casino income stream which is the parent's company forte.

Then the impossible happened. The local Sanator managed to get the Federal law changed specifally to prevent them from doing this.

Inspite of this Star Cruises made the fateful decision to go ahead and operate out of Hawaii and NCLA was born.

2 of the 3 strengths is now gone and they took on the killer known as American labour.

Now I know Americans are enraged by my comments here. Let me say that I mean no disrespect or is dismissive of American labour. Americans are just as sensitive about their national pride as anybody else. I have great respect for American labour. I think they are the most produtive per hour of output in the world. They rightly can enjoy their highest standard of living and its attendent anbiant lifestyle.

But we are now in the gobal labour market and you have to compete against the third world worker. Star Cruises worked their crew incredibly hard. I myself have exeperienced the backjack dealer fainting at the blackjack table I was playing on due to exhaustion from being overworked. The decision to go ahead with American labour and NCLA is the decision of Star Cruises. What is the future for NCLA? It is of interest to note that Star Cruises lost $34M in the last quater whereas Carnival reported a 12% increase in profit.

 

Deck 10, what law was it that was changed by a local senator?? I remember the relentless campaign by NCL to get the exemption to flag the Pride ships U.S., but wasn't aware of a law that was changed to prevent Star from operating Leo in Hawaii.... I know the casino stream was a problem because of the inability to operate a casino in Hawaiian waters.

 

Agree with you on the shaky future of NCLA... beautiful ships, just curious as to the long term financial impact. Time will tell!

[electricron]

I like the analogy of the Chevy and the Caddy. In this case the Chevy would be an offshoot of the Caddy.

(Good work Jim Gullup, you have said something sensible at last and I have learned something from you here )

The similarity between the Chevy and the NCLA would be that the Chevy is breaking down very often and in this case the NCLA ,has far too many complaints. In the land where "satisfaction guarantee " is more or less a byword of the American consumer market one has to wonder what is the future of NCLA.

When Star Cruises was started 13 years ago they hired an International crew and paid competitive wages. But over the years these have been replaced by an Asian crew at a small fraction of the original pay. Hopefully some other posters may have some insights into the crew situation at NCL for us.

When Star Cruises bought over NCL things must have look more than right in the Hawaiian market. The have this large modern cruise ship (formerly known as the Super Star Leo now known as the NCL Spirit) which can do 30 knots and can reach a foreign port (fanning island,1000 miles away) Under the existing law they have 3 important strengths going for them. 1) their killer app known as freestyle dining , 2) this extremely low cost Asian crew and 3) the new casino income stream which is the parent's company forte.

Then the impossible happened. The local Senator managed to get the Federal law changed specially to prevent them from doing this.

Inspite of this Star Cruises made the fateful decision to go ahead and operate out of Hawaii and NCLA was born.

2 of the 3 strengths is now gone and they took on the killer known as American labour.

Now I know Americans are enraged by my comments here. Let me say that I mean no disrespect or is dismissive of American labour. Americans are just as sensitive about their national pride as anybody else. I have great respect for American labour. I think they are the most productive per hour of output in the world. They rightly can enjoy their highest standard of living and its attendant ambient lifestyle.

But we are now in the global labour market and you have to compete against the third world worker. Star Cruises worked their crew incredibly hard. I myself have experienced the blackjack dealer fainting at the blackjack table I was playing on due to exhaustion from being overworked. The decision to go ahead with American labour and NCLA is the decision of Star Cruises. What is the future for NCLA? It is of interest to note that Star Cruises lost $34M in the last quarter whereas Carnival reported a 12% increase in profit.

 

NCL really lossed $63 million for the first half of 2006. I don't think one should attribute "any" of that $63 million on NCLA. Take a closer look at NCL's last accounting report. The biggest thing to strike me was an "Operational Net Profit" of $22.5 million in the first half of 2006, compared to $20.1 million in 2005. Operational costs included the higher fuel and labor costs since last year. Yet, they still managed to increase Operational net profits over $2 million. So I looked deeper to find where most of the loses came from. Here's what I found that were significant differences between last years and this years costs.

 

NCL paid just $37.5 million for Long Term Debt in the first half of 2005, $201.4 million in 2006, an increase $163.9 million. NCL made $15.3 million for Exchange Rates in the first half of 2005, and loss $22.3 million in 2006, a difference $37.6 million from year to year. Together, NCL paid $201.5 million more one these two items than they did last year. Yet, somehow, with just an Operational profit of $2 million more than last year, they kept Net Loses down to just $63 million for the first half. Somehow and somewhere, NCL saved $138.5 million in Expenses this year first half over last year.

 

Is this apparent loss caused by paying off Long Term Debt early, so they could find financing so they could order two, possibly three, new "F3" class ships? What other reason could there be for this significant increase in Long Term Debt payments? Is this a one time charge, or a charge we can expect every year?

 

I know these financial reports don't tell everything about a company, but it is comforting to know NCL is still making Operational profits, even after experiencing increase fuel charges and paying a larger more expensive American work force with the addition of two more American crewed ships.

 

I shouldn't expect NCL to go broke soon.

[Jim Gallup]

I also worked for NCL.

Then I was transferred (against my will and better judgement) to the NCLA office in Honolulu.

To make that transfer happen, I was forced to resign from NCL, apply to NCLA, officially go through the hiring process, and go to work for the new company in Honolulu.

At NCL America, my salary, benefits, and all other work-related issues were completely different from my NCL package. Even my seniority at NCL - which was substantial - was not honored at NCL America.

My boss was Robert Kritzman - not Colin Veitch.

It was legally and operationally a separate company - that frequently used the resources of the parent company.

One of my colleagues was forced to resign from Orient Lines (another NCL brand) in order to transfer to NCL America. He went through exactly the same procedures I did.

[VegasGreen]

and you worked onboard, correct?

[Jim Gallup]

No, we both worked in the NCL America office in Honolulu.

I later moved to the ships in Hawaii.

When I asked to transfer back to the International Fleet, I was told that I would have to resign from NCL America and take my chances applying to NCL International.

[VegasGreen]

What dept. were you in? I'm aware of the Honolulu office, but have I said anything inaccurate about the Miami office?

[VegasGreen]

I'm sorry to have raised so many challenges on this issue.. I had no idea it was so important to some to try and prove me wrong. I won't post any further on the issue, because it seems to be creating more rancor than sharing of information, which is what i wanted to do. Everyone is more entitled to call me a liar or believe whatever it is they want to believe, though I can't imagine what purpose that would have served me. I stand by every single thing I said based on my experiences in one department at NCL in Miami handling both NCL and NCLA issues on a daily basis. I emphasized at every point that the onboard product was totally different. Everyone, of course, is welcome to see it however they choose.

 

I'll stand by the website points as evidence (outside of my personal experience) that NCLA is not considered a separate cruise line as CC and RCI lines are. I just think it would be horribly bush league for a CRUISE LINE to not have their own website and to allow their ships to be shown and marketed on another cruise line's site under another cruise line's logo booked by another cruise line's reservations staff. Mystifying.

[dwrist]

I'm sorry to have raised so many challenges on this issue.. I had no idea it was so important to some to try and prove me wrong. I won't post any further on the issue, because it seems to be creating more rancor than sharing of information, which is what i wanted to do. Everyone is more entitled to call me a liar or believe whatever it is they want to believe, though I can't imagine what purpose that would have served me. I stand by every single thing I said based on my experiences in one department at NCL in Miami handling both NCL and NCLA issues on a daily basis. I emphasized at every point that the onboard product was totally different. Everyone, of course, is welcome to see it however they choose.

 

I'll stand by the website points as evidence (outside of my personal experience) that NCLA is not considered a separate cruise line as CC and RCI lines are. I just think it would be horribly bush league for a CRUISE LINE to not have their own website and to allow their ships to be shown and marketed on another cruise line's site under another cruise line's logo booked by another cruise line's reservations staff. Mystifying.

 

not for Chinese companies

[VegasGreen]

Sorry, I couldn't resist coming back for this one....

 

... Chinese companies??? There's not a single Chinese company involved here. Genting/Star, etc. is Malaysian. Minor detail. And, pray tell, what does that have to do with NCL's website?

[Deck10 007]

Deck 10, what law was it that was changed by a local senator??

 

It surprises me that you said you work for NCL but has no clue on the above subject.

Click on my name Deck10 007 and then click on " Find all Post by Deck10 007 " and then scrow down to the Postings "How did things get so wrong at NCL (Star Cruises).........." dated Sept 20 and also read the reply by MikeKaye dated Sept 21.

You will be wiser after reading this and let me know if you want to know anything more.

[smeyer418]

Actually I think its a distinction without a difference. It will only have meaning if you have to sue one or the other and to what extent the assets may be reachable or to the extent one was an alter ego under law of the other(and for US tax purposes or labor law issues should be considered one entity) but for the most part its a meaningless excercise for most of us. I do think there is a difference between the US crews on NCLA and the international ones of NCL. Obviously someone was listening to the lawyers who told them that transfering employees back and forth might make it one legal entity.

[VegasGreen]

Deck 10, what law was it that was changed by a local senator??

 

It surprises me that you said you work for NCL but has no clue on the above subject.

Click on my name Deck10 007 and then click on " Find all Post by Deck10 007 " and then scrow down to the Postings "How did things get so wrong at NCL (Star Cruises).........." dated Sept 20 and also read the reply by MikeKaye dated Sept 21.

You will be wiser after reading this and let me know if you want to know anything more.

 

It surprises you?? I was in Reservations/Inside Sales, not legal. I wasn't planning itineraries, either. I WISH I had that kind of authority.

 

All you are talking about on that thread is the law that bans gambling on the Kiribati run, which only applies to the Wind or other NCL ships.. not the inter-island NCLA itineraries. The casinos were never open on the Wind during that run, at least in the time I was with the company. Even if you looked to open the casino in that time, you'd have what, a couple of days out of a 10 or 11 night cruise? It would hardly be worth it to staff the dealers. You said "in spite of this decision, Star decide dto operate out of Hawaii anyway"... but Star/NCL had the Wind (and many other ships) on the Kiribati run for years before this decision.

 

The primary POINT of NCLA was to comply with the Jones Act and be able to AVOID the Kiribati run/days at sea. I hardly think the minor decision of not having the casino open for a couple of days paved the way for NCLA and led things to "go so wrong at Star Cruises"... the lack of a casino is one of the many reasons the price points on NCLA cruises are so much higher, and have been from the outset.

 

Also, and this is an honest question, not trying to call you out -- did Leo really go 30-31 knots like you said? Obviously I've never been on the mechanical side of things, but I looked at everything I have here and then Googled "Norwegian Spirit" maximum speed, and everything I have and everything online states a cruising speed of 21 knots with a Maximum speed of 24.5-25.5 knots. We were always told the Nor. Star platform were our fastest ships -- did something happen to where the maximum operated speed was reduced on the transfer to NCL?

[beachchick]

 

It surprises you?? I was in Reservations/Inside Sales, not legal. I wasn't planning itineraries, either. I WISH I had that kind of authority.

 

All you are talking about on that thread is the law that bans gambling on the Kiribati run, which only applies to the Wind or other NCL ships.. not the inter-island NCLA itineraries. The casinos were never open on the Wind during that run, at least in the time I was with the company. Even if you looked to open the casino in that time, you'd have what, a couple of days out of a 10 or 11 night cruise? It would hardly be worth it to staff the dealers. You said "in spite of this decision, Star decide dto operate out of Hawaii anyway"... but Star/NCL had the Wind (and many other ships) on the Kiribati run for years before this decision.

 

The primary POINT of NCLA was to comply with the Jones Act and be able to AVOID the Kiribati run/days at sea. I hardly think the minor decision of not having the casino open for a couple of days paved the way for NCLA and led things to "go so wrong at Star Cruises"... the lack of a casino is one of the many reasons the price points on NCLA cruises are so much higher, and have been from the outset.

 

Also, and this is an honest question, not trying to call you out -- did Leo really go 30-31 knots like you said? Obviously I've never been on the mechanical side of things, but I looked at everything I have here and then Googled "Norwegian Spirit" maximum speed, and everything I have and everything online states a cruising speed of 21 knots with a Maximum speed of 24.5-25.5 knots. We were always told the Nor. Star platform were our fastest ships -- did something happen to where the maximum operated speed was reduced on the transfer to NCL?

 

If we're going to be accurate, the act that covers cruise ship initeraries (that is the route on which they take pax) is the Passenger Services Act. The Jones Act (the Merchant Marine Act) governs the building and staffing of US-flagged ships (which does include US-flagged cruise ships), the transportation of cargo and goods, and something to do with sailors and their legal rights (can't remember exactly).

 

Also, didn't I read that NCL was required at some point to actually remove the casino from the Wind while she was cruising the Hawaii itineraries?

 

beachchick

[Checkmate1955]

After reading all of the post on this subject, I now see that it is time for me to join the NCLA crowd.... Yea for NCLA.... Thanks goodness that we have an American owned and American managed cruise line, NCLA.... Not only than but they are fully staffed with Americans.... Now we have a cruise line that we can support without sending our hard earned money to the Orient, etc...Yea for the All American Cruise line.... NCLA.....