Whither Marina?

[brian_uk]

Dont start another thread about NUTS cause we will find they are not available at certain times of the day !!!!

 

Actually Mike, it would be interesting to see a ship 200 yards wide and 30 deep....it would leave a hell of a wake and they could dock in smaller spaces.

 

Brian

[garykool81]

Interesting to see how much rumors change over time. When I was onboard Regatta about a year ago, I heard whispers here and there about either obtaining another "R" ship or having a newbuild anywhere between 35,000 - 45,000 tons. Now, I am seeing that people are talking 60,000 tons.

 

Just goes to show that we really don't know until a formal announcement is made via press release.

[Nitrodog]

Millinium class Celebrity ships actually take me to the limit. 1950 pax are more than enough but the way the builds are going 3-4000 pax will become the standard in the near future. That's not cruising, that's waddling.What's wrong with feeling the ship move through the waves and why wouldn't I want to run into a fellow passenger more than once over the duration of a cruise. I'll take the smaller ships anytime.

[Jancruz]

I guess I can say this without getting into hot water..Marina will knock your socks off (if you wear them)

Jan

*****

[garykool81]

Millinium class Celebrity ships actually take me to the limit. 1950 pax are more than enough but the way the builds are going 3-4000 pax will become the standard in the near future. That's not cruising, that's waddling.What's wrong with feeling the ship move through the waves and why wouldn't I want to run into a fellow passenger more than once over the duration of a cruise. I'll take the smaller ships anytime.

 

I couldn't agree more! In fact, I would even step down one notch to the Century-class ships. I think those are really the ideal size for more "mass market" cruising. They are small enough to still bump into your friends onboard, but large enough to offer diverse public rooms, dining options, etc.

 

I am still amazed at how much the designers of these R-class ships were able to cram into the small ships. Who would think that 30,000 tons could hold a grand dining room and two alternative restaurants, on top of the *beautiful* public rooms such as the foyer and library, etc.?

 

While I won't speculate on Marina since rumors are just that, I will say that I hope Oceania executives stick to the overall decorative theme found aboard the rest of their current fleet. It is wonderful that a cruise line out there still has a very classic feel that sort of beckons the grand old days of oceanliners.

 

On a different note, I hope they design Marina to be a bit more seaworthy out in the open oceans. The current fleet just bobs like a cork, and you tend to feel every single wave...even in standard five to eight foot swells.

[odleka]

I agree with Gary about the Century class ships are nice. Another group of ships that are nice to sail are HAL's Statendam class ships. We sailed Maasdam in 1999 and it 12xx passengers was very nice. People were friendly and would offer space at a table they were using during the busy breakfast and lunch times in the buffet area. I enjoyed greeting people and being greeted when I bumped into them during the cruise. This trend towards mega ships with 3000+ will drive me to the smaller more expensive lines. I will sail less to have a more classic cruise experience. My husband and I would prefer Oceania keep their ships between 700-1000. We will not sail the new HAL signature, Celebrity Solstice class or RCCL Voyage, Freedom, or Genesis class ships. They are just too big!! I am hoping the older smaller ships in these lines get some good itineraries so I can sail them at hopefully a better fare due to their age. ;)

[mike35]

Another group of ships that are nice to sail are HAL's Statendam class ships. We sailed Maasdam in 1999 and it 12xx passengers was very nice. People were friendly and would offer space at a table they were using during the busy breakfast and lunch times in the buffet area. I enjoyed greeting people and being greeted when I bumped into them during the cruise.

 

DW and I couldn't agree more! We just finished our first HAL Statendam cruise, and we were pleasantly surprised with the layout, the cabin size, storage and amenities. Oceania remains our favorite line, but if the itinerary calls for an alternate line, we'll certainly consider another HAL "S" class.

 

Mike

[Nitrodog]

On a different note, I hope they design Marina to be a bit more seaworthy out in the open oceans. The current fleet just bobs like a cork, and you tend to feel every single wave...even in standard five to eight foot swells.

 

Funny you should say that Gary, but we sailed on the Tahitian Princess and found the ride to be just fine. Now I can't say we had high seas but when we were trying to board the tender at Rarotonga, the staff had to time each passenger's "leap" onto the tender as the waves were taking the tender up and down a good 6 feet. We quite liked the way the ship handled the weather. Having said that, we've never experienced 20 ft seas on any ship.

 

I found an interesting post back in September, by a person who seems to know what he's talking about. Take a look below:

----------------------------------------------

Ship stability is a function of many factors. I spent some of my summers on 70' fishing boats in the North Sea between Scotland and Norway, where treacherous seas could toss vessels around like toys. These were very seaworthy vessels, but not very stable ones.

 

There are two basic ways a ship moves to make people feel "unstable" - "pitch" and "roll". "Pitch" is the movement that feels up and down - the bow and stern moving vertically up and down, while "roll" is the side to side movement.

 

Cruise ships are built as a basic compromise - Minimizing "draft" - how deep the hull sits in the water - is great for getting into shallow water ports, but compromises stability. This is best understood when you consider the keel of a yacht, where the heavier and deeper it is, the less the yacht "keels over". Cruise ships compensate for this by installing stabilizers, which are wings that can be deployed under water to minimize roll. However, when deployed, stabilizers compromise ship's speed and fuel efficiency.

 

Cruise ships tend to be flat sided, rising many stories above the sea. This makes them very susceptible to broadside winds, which can also contribute to the roll characteristics.

 

Cruise ships also have a higher center of gravity, because ship builders want to pack in as much above the water line as they can. This contributes to both pitch and roll. People can compensate for this by going as low as possible and toward the center, getting close to the center of gravity. This is where most medical facilities are placed on cruise ships.

 

Cruise ship bow shapes are also compromised, mainly due to the draft issues noted earlier. The bow design is extremely important in how the ship "cuts" through the waves. if it rides on top of the waves, a lot of pitch occurs.

 

There are several other factors in ship design, but these are some of the compromises that affect the stability of the ship.

 

The wave and swell size, direction, and pattern, and the wind velocity and direction ultimately dictate most toward a ship feeling unstable. These are very unpredictable, and different ship designs are affected differently.

 

Having said all that, the "R" class ships have a shallow draft, and a compromised hull design. This can cause them to feel a little unstable when seas get a little rough. The Atlantic Ocean can boil up seas that can toss around any ship of any size of any design, however.

 

Just be prepared.

[Druke I]

Nitrodog's explanation of hull shape influencing ride is "right on".

 

For those of you praising the Statendam, be advised that that class of ship is not a particularly good rider in gale force storms often encountered in the Atlantic. They have a rather blunt prow, wind prone hull, and tend to ride up upon waves, rather than "cutting through" them, and then bouncing back down rather roughly.

 

In 9-95, West of the Azores, on a trans-Atlantic on Maasdam (sister to Statendam), water entered the hull via the hawsepipe (anchor chainway) while fighting a gale force storm. Our cabin, and some dozen or so others on Main deck forward flooded to approx. 6" depth.

 

Luckily, the ship was not full, and they were able to move us into other cabins for the remainder of the crossing (Lisbon to Fort Lauderdale).

 

Travel can be an adventure.

[Druke I]

An addendum to my post above.

 

The late great Royal Princess, at 45,000GRT 1200PAX was a "very good sea boat". We rode through a gale on her, 9-98, between Greenland and Newfoundland, and she was very stable, although with noticeable shudder.

 

Princess' newer, much larger Grand class do not ride well either. 8-00, again West of the Azores, we had bow slap spray raining down on our balcony on Caribe (10) deck, and several windows along Promenade Deck shattered while the ship was flexing and fighting for seaway. Elevator cars could be heard banging about in the forward elevator shafts. We were 6 hrs late into NYC due to storm delays.

 

A lot of ride has to do with "fineness of hull", length to breadth ratio. Beamy ships generally do not ride as well as long narrow beamed ships.

[Druke I]

There is a young fellow, screen name MarineArchit, who has posted three different proposals for new ships over on the Princess board.

 

The three are all too big (I think) for Oceania, but he does have some clever ideas.

 

He hopes someday to be a Marine Architect, and be involved in the design of cruise ships.

 

As he is still a "struggling student", he probably would work something up for Oceania quite cheaply!

[Druke I]

Have you had a chance to look at MarineArchit's proposed ships?

 

Still awaiting news re Marina.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I will say that I hope Oceania executives stick to the overall decorative theme found aboard the rest of their current fleet.

I wouldn't count on it.

[Druke I]

Now that Disney has announced two new-builds, will Oceania be making an announcement?

 

We have been very patient.

[garykool81]

I wouldn't count on it.

 

Doug -- What makes you say that?

[dougnewmanatsea]

Doug -- What makes you say that?

I could tell you but I'd have to kill you ;) .

[Druke I]

I prefer the more polite version: "If you need to ask, you are not cleared to know".

[garykool81]

Well, it would be a shame if they totally changed the interior look and feel of the new ships from their current fleet. They really have carved out a nice niche in the industry that sets them apart. Boarding an Oceania ship kind of takes you back to the golden age of transatlantic liners -- they are simply beautiful.

 

The rest of the industry, except for Celebrity, I really don't care for in terms of interior appearance. Princess I find too dull (too much brass, hushed marble tones, etc....feels like a Hilton lobby), Holland America these days is getting outrageous (the lobby of Zuiderdam combined fire-engine red, bright yellow, teal and purple....yuck!) and even the higher-end lines such as Silversea and Yachts of Seabourn, while attractive, are still rather dull just like Princess with the interior.

 

Cunard is the only other line aside from Oceania that I can think of which still has a high-end, classic appearance.

 

I suppose if they follow in the footsteps of a line such as Celebrity with combining the abstract, contemporary design with an upscale feel in a way that actually WORKS and feels tasteful, then more power to them.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I prefer the more polite version: "If you need to ask, you are not cleared to know".

Is that like, "if you have to ask (the price), you can't afford it" ;) ?

 

Boarding an Oceania ship kind of takes you back to the golden age of transatlantic liners -- they are simply beautiful.

This is true, but look at Oceania's marketing - nothing about the golden age of Atlantic liners. It is actually a fairly "modern" brand, unlike, say, Cunard, whose branding is dripping with nostalgia.

 

Of course many people really like the R ships and for those people, they will remain in the fleet. But I think the new ships will offer something different. More space, more luxury, and yes, a different interior décor.

 

I suppose if they follow in the footsteps of a line such as Celebrity with combining the abstract, contemporary design with an upscale feel in a way that actually WORKS and feels tasteful, then more power to them.

I do not know what the new ships will look like, but I would not be surprised if they move in that direction... Contemporary and upscale. And hopefully not as bland as e.g. the Silversea ships.

[dougnewmanatsea]

In an interview with Frank Del Rio, Seatrade Insider News reports that newbuilds will be ordered soon:

 

Oceania has been working on newbuilds for the past 12 months and hopes to announce a multiple ship order with options in the next 30 to 60 days, Del Rio told Seatrade Insider. The line is aiming for a 2010 delivery slot and is talking with the major European builders.

 

My guess is that we will be looking at a 60,000 GT ship carrying around 1,200 passengers, with a design totally different from the R ships, probably more in line with ships like SEVEN SEAS VOYAGER.