Lewd is crude but not a crime

[babyher]

a couple of points. If I am a woman and I say he groped me, that is all the proof that is necessary if the trier of fact(court martial) believes me. No other proof is necessary. When someone is robbed and says he robbed me that is all the proof that is needed as well. The level of crime may depend on what is taken but the robbery itself depends only on a single person's say so.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice(UCMJ) follows all members of the military where ever they are. As long as they are in the military off duty, off the base, off the country or off the planet for that matter it doesn't matter.

There is a catch all provision that applies to officers which basically says any action that is unbecoming of an officer is punishable as a crime(I think 134 but I am not sure), punishable as the court martial directs. I am not sure whether a cadet or midshipman is covered by that section but there is a similar for non-comms'. Clearly an un consented sexual touching is a crime. It is a crime in most but not all states to give liquor to a minor. The law of the country where the ship is flagged applies as well as the country where the ship is to dock next(maritime rules).

 

for a crime to be charged under the UCMJ the commanding authority/appointing authority after an investigations decides whether to bring non-judicial punishment(article 15 or a captains mast) or to prceed to an article 32 investigation--like a grand jury which may lead to a special or general courts martial-the difference between the two has to do with what penalties can be imposed. Both do rely to some extent on whether the person is available to testify. Only in very unusual circumstances will a crime be prosecuted without the complaining witness being required to testify. Non-judicial punishment can be done with out a witness but the penalties are normally a fine confinement to the baracks etc....(you know bread and water and punishment walks)...

 

So you are saying that if I was a serviceman and you go to this UCMJ with a complaint about me. All you have to do is make the complaint and I am to put it mildly ....screwed. Just you complaining about me is enough proof?

 

So if you had some petty grievance with me, nothing illegal, maybe I stood you up on a date and now you want revenge. You can give some line of crap story to my superiors and thats all it takes to ruin me ? You can claim I groped you , raped you, beat you whatever , and they don't need a shred of proof or a coroborating witness ????

 

Thats insane :(

[Cruisin' Ron VA]

So you are saying that if I was a serviceman and you go to this UCMJ with a complaint about me. All you have to do is make the complaint and I am to put it mildly ....screwed. Just you complaining about me is enough proof?

 

So if you had some petty grievance with me, nothing illegal, maybe I stood you up on a date and now you want revenge. You can give some line of crap story to my superiors and thats all it takes to ruin me ? You can claim I groped you , raped you, beat you whatever , and they don't need a shred of proof or a coroborating witness ????

 

Thats insane :(

 

There is a little more to it than that. One isnt found automatically guilty. For example in the navy the XO will hold a little hearing and if he or she determines there is merit to the alegations then he or she will refer the case to the Captain. A Captains mast is held (he is judge and jury). If the accused is found guilty by the captain then punishment is handed down right then and there.

 

If the incident is serious like murder and rape then a court martial would be in order.

 

So no, based on an allegation one is not automatically guilty. The accused get due process, just under different laws and rules.

 

Some librarys carry the UCMJ book. Why not check one out? This would take care of the misinformation reported on there that just because the incident happend in international waters then the midshipmen arent subject to US or Military law.

 

FYI: If a member of the miltary commits a crime in a particular city, the city police can take care of the arrest and that person can be tried in the civilian court. Guess what? When thats over the military takes over and can also try him. Yup he gets it twice.

[babyher]

There is a little more to it than that. One isnt found automatically guilty. For example in the navy the XO will hold a little hearing and if he or she determines there is merit to the alegations then he or she will refer the case to the Captain. A Captains mast is held (he is judge and jury). If the accused is found guilty by the captain then punishment is handed down right then and there.

 

If the incident is serious like murder and rape then a court martial would be in order.

 

So no' date=' based on an allegation one is not automatically guilty. The accused get due process, just under different laws and rules.

 

Some librarys carry the UCMJ book. Why not check one out? This would take care of the misinformation reported on there that just because the incident happend in international waters then the midshipmen arent subject to US or Military law.

 

FYI: If a member of the miltary commits a crime in a particular city, the city police can take care of the arrest and that person can be tried in the civilian court. Guess what? When thats over the military takes over and can also try him. Yup he gets it twice.[/quote']

 

I see

 

Thank you very much for clarifying that :)

[Hoot87]

Just to give an update on the story of a non-story about the Mids on the Glory during their Spring Break, the Naval Academy conducted an investigation and found at least 35 Mids had been on that cruise, and while there were a few incidents of poor decision making with respect to the use of alcohol, there was no indication that any "rules were broken" that warrented disciplinary action to be taken on any of the Midshipmen on that cruise. (On a side note, there was at least one "former Mid" on that cruise - apparently he had been disenrolled at least one semester prior to the Spring Break cruise - he was not part of the investigation).:o

 

During the investigation, the Naval Academy was inundated with phone calls and e-mails from other passengers on that cruise that refuted the e-mail sent by the originator of the complaint.:D

 

Today, the story from the Academy message boards is that the originator has again contacted the Naval Academy and refuted her original story.:eek:

[river_sand_bar2]

Hummmmm.... guilty before proven innocent... the great way of rumors!!!!

 

And how many people here were first to jump on the bandwagon?? :mad:

[DreadPirateRobert]

Hoot87 thanks for that update.

I'm glad to see that this is behind the Midshipmen.

 

It always dismays me to see how fast some are to "convict" a serviceman for something before all the facts are in, as though the mere accusation is enough. In my world anyone who puts on a uniform, accepts the sacrifices and helps protect me and mine deserves more than a little benefit of the doubt; at least untill all the true facts are known.

I have to wonder if the media will run the retraction part of the story.......

[caribbean dreams]

Hummmmm.... guilty before proven innocent... the great way of rumors!!!!

 

And how many people here were first to jump on the bandwagon?? :mad:

 

Not me, i told everyone to wait for both sides of the story.

(or someting to that effect)

[river_sand_bar2]

I wonder if the originator, was actually a Bush hater and a military hater, thus trying to give them a bad name and a bad image, by starting rumors and lies.... thus she ends up being the bad person.

 

Just a thought.

[rgreenpc]

I am glad that the accuser has recanted....

 

I hate to see people tarnish the name of our service academys.

[big_duck]

I am glad that the accuser has recanted....

 

I hate to see people tarnish the name of our service academys.

 

Alleged to recanted.

 

jumping to assumptions of guilt works both ways.

[hdawson]

It sounds like one allegation by one woman against the word of many others.

I hold our officers and cadets in great respect. So similar to the allegations against the Duke LaCrosse members. What a farce that has been! ! ! !

[rgreenpc]

Alleged to recanted.

 

jumping to assumptions of guilt works both ways.

 

 

Fair point Don...

[teachesfirst]

IF this was made up, too bad there isn't a similar system (USMJ) to deal with the person spreading the lies in the first place.

[krazy4cruise]

Im not saying what they did was right but "she" said they offered drinks to under age females but did they know they were under age?? I mean come on I have seen lots of 16 year olds that look older than 21. Was there just the one complaint? If so maybe she got mad cause she thought she was the special one until she saw them grope someone else. Im not saying thats what happened but you cant take a story that we dont have all the facts to and make a judgement against someone. These guys are innocent until proven guilty not the other way around. I have worked in law enforcement and things arent always what they seem to be.

[Kittybork]

IF this was made up, too bad there isn't a similar system (USMJ) to deal with the person spreading the lies in the first place.

 

What could possibly motivate a person to make up such charges? This woman could have ruined the military careers of all of these guys. What a shame.

 

Women like her, if she did make it up, create problems for all women who find themselves being groped or worse.

[Margarita1time]

I hold our officers and cadets in great respect.

 

 

Most of us do. However; that doesn't make them automatically innocent of any wrong doing. People are people, and even officers, cadets, military personnel, and government leaders have been known to lie. This woman may or may not have been telling the truth. I certainly hope that the whole truth is exposed- whoever is in the wrong. The media is a powerful weapon, especially when it doesn't have all the facts.

 

As far as the statement that the posting being as bad as the alleged acts-

You scare me. I pray that no person you ever love is ever a victim of the alleged acts.

[hdawson]

Margarita. I firmly believe that anyone making such claims, such as the now discredited allegations against the Duke LaCrosse team, should be held responsible for the legal fees (both prosecution and defense). Actually, here in NC the biggest penalty for false charges is a fine of $500.

[chasetf]

Article 133 of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) which pertains to any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman, includes provisions of being drunk and disorderly in a public place.

 

I am not saying these midshipmen are guilty, but the allegations raised certainly seem within the definitions of this article and would seem to be worthy of investigation by the Academy.

 

Maybe the Naval Academy does not remember the uproar of the Tailhook Convention, which had some of this same type of behavior, that brought disgrade and imfamy to the US Navy.

 

In September 1991, the Las Vegas Hilton casino hosted the U. S. Navy's Tailhook Association annual meeting. During this gathering, widespread acts of sexual assault by Naval officers took place in the hotel. The Navy attempted a cover-up of the event, however the initial accusations stood up and fueled a large scandal receiving wide media attention. Responsibility included the entire chain of command, ultimately affecting the careers of over 300 pilots and 14 admirals, including Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Frank Kelso.

[Hoot87]

Article 133 of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) which pertains to any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman, includes provisions of being drunk and disorderly in a public place.

 

Define "disorderly" ....:D

[Hoot87]

Alleged to recanted.

 

Don't worry Don - I'm sure you will never hear of it in the Media.

 

Here are a few posts from a Naval Academy message board (obviously it is an unofficial site - mostly dealing with Navy Sports):

 

S. said today that the woman who was quoted in the BS article called (or emailed) the Academy and basically recanted on her entire story. She said she may have 'misconstrued' the Midshipman's behavior on the dance floor. What a jerk she is! Shame on her and shame on the reporter for trolling the internet and trying to turn a rant on a blog into a legitimate story

 

Can you point me to a source? I heard the same thing.

 

the only source I have is what my son is telling me. He's a 2/C and seems to be pretty savy about the situation so I think he might know one of the kids involved. He's been pretty much on target so far so I trust his information as good. All I can say is that the camping trip he took over SB is starting to look better and better!

 

For the non-military out there, BS = Baltimore Sun (however there are times the usual definition seems appropriate for that paper), 2/C = Second Class Midshipman - a Junior in College, SB = Spring Break (not an especially military term, but since I was in definition mode ....)

[LHP]

Just my opinion, but "if" their conduct was that horrible then Carnival would have at the very least a complaint report on file. If the people "offended" did not report it at the time of the occurance, then (again IMHO) days or a week later after you are off the ship and no chance for "real witnesses" to be named does not cut it.

[chasetf]

Define "disorderly" ....:D

One place you could go look for a definition is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorderly_conduct

 

UCMJ defines it as: (2) Disorderly. Disorderly conduct is conduct of such a nature as to affect the peace and quiet of persons who may witness it and who may be disturbed or provoked to resentment thereby. It includes conduct that endangers public morals or outrages public decency and any disturbance of a contentious or turbulent character.

 

I think groping women in public would fit that definition. .....WOULDN'T YOU

[smeyer418]

So you are saying that if I was a serviceman and you go to this UCMJ with a complaint about me. All you have to do is make the complaint and I am to put it mildly ....screwed. Just you complaining about me is enough proof?

 

So if you had some petty grievance with me, nothing illegal, maybe I stood you up on a date and now you want revenge. You can give some line of crap story to my superiors and thats all it takes to ruin me ? You can claim I groped you , raped you, beat you whatever , and they don't need a shred of proof or a coroborating witness ????

 

Thats insane :(

The issue will be does the trier of fact believe her? In an assault case its no different. In a rape it may be different because one of the elements of proof is penetration. In most states now a rape can be proven on the uncorroborated evidence of the complainant. The fact is that most juries still require more than the minimum but I can assure you that many people are in jail based on one person's uncorroborated testimony. One of the reasons the conviction rate in Federal court is so high is you can also be convicted based on the uncorroborated testimony of a co-conspirator--which is also not true in most states.

[river_sand_bar2]

The GROPING Of Women was alleged... show some evidence and then the case will rest. Until that such time... the cadets fall under the direct bases that America was built on.. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

 

Are there pictures of the event?? No... are there other eye witness the can rebut the story?? YES... was there a police report done?? NO.... was there a complaint filed with Carnival? No...

 

So it really comes down to 1 persons word .(at a later date). which is that enough to convict a person of a crime? When there is NO evidence that a crime was even commited.Wouldn't you THINK, that a bunch of cadets walking around in speedo's, cowboy hats and boots... would have at least gotten a FEW pictures taken? I KNOW my wife would have been smacking that shutter.

 

Get REAL ...

[schultz]

The GROPING Of Women was alleged... show some evidence and then the case will rest. Until that such time... the cadets fall under the direct bases that America was built on.. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

 

Are there pictures of the event?? No... are there other eye witness the can rebut the story?? YES... was there a police report done?? NO.... was there a complaint filed with Carnival? No...

 

So it really comes down to 1 persons word .(at a later date). which is that enough to convict a person of a crime? When there is NO evidence that a crime was even commited.Wouldn't you THINK, that a bunch of cadets walking around in speedo's, cowboy hats and boots... would have at least gotten a FEW pictures taken? I KNOW my wife would have been smacking that shutter.

 

Get REAL ...

 

There were hundreds of pictures taken with cowboy. People were calling him over asking to have their picture taken with him. If he were crude and groping, why were so many women and men always eager to talk to him. Let's face it, he was the life of the party and one person took offense to him. We don't know her reasons or motivation. With his body and good looks he could have groped me anytime.