Has Cruising Jumped The Shark?

[bostom]

After 17 cruises in the past 9 years, I'm starting to think the bloom is off the rose. Our cruise on the MAASDAM in July was indicative of just how far Holland-America's standards seemed to have fallen from the last time we were on the AMSTERDAM. While we still like 'em well enough, (best of all, considering what we've seen and heard lately) we have seen declines in the quality of Celebrity's food - once their signature. Friends who just returned from Alaska on a Princess cruise were appalled by what they found on board and were - until last week - big Princess fans. Our last QM2 cruise couldn't hold a candle in terms of overall quality to our previous QE2 and CARONIA cruises.

 

More than the cutbacks we see in terms of food quality and staffing levels (cabin stewards seem to have had twice as many cabins as before, waiters are overwhelmed, wine costs much more, the luxury items on the menu have disappeared, portions are smaller) or in the absence of the small touches that once distinguished one ship or line from another, the worst trend I've seen is the increasing non-responsiveness of management: "We're sorry" used to mean something. How do I know? Because it lead to fixing the problem being apologized for. Now it seems an empty phrase because while one's complaint is acknowledged, too often no improvement or change results: the service/food/plumbing problems continue.

 

To be fair, it's most often not the Front Desk/housekeeper's/maitre d's fault, but it used to be within their power to fix. More and more they can't seem to fix a problem because they're so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of complaints, or can't because they don't have the resources to do so, or as a consequence of both have just given up. On one hand, I can't say that I blame them: they know better than me how much worse things have gotten. On the other, who else do you go to?

 

Despite thick manuals in the cabin detailing the "do's and don'ts" of cruise etiquette and expected behavior for those without either common sense or simple courtesy; time after time, on cruise after cruise, we see breaches of basic issues of health, safety, and comfort ignored by shipboard staff. Smoking happens wherever and whenever, regardless of whatever the rules are; toddlers in diapers in the hot tub has become a regular occurrence when we sail, and the rowdy-unto-vulgar behavior of some kids (and worse, some adults) are all - increasingly - the rule, not the exception. I surmise they're afraid to enforce their own rules for fear of offending the customers who don't follow them. When will they realize that in so doing, they're losing those of us who do?

 

I know that in real dollar terms the price of a cruise is as low or lower than it was nine years ago, but to me the decline in standards - however defined - far exceeds the decline in cost. It has got me thinking that cruising is no longer what it was, that the hassle isn't offset by the reward, and that my vacation dollars will soon go elsewhere. I know too that the industry's model is, increasingly, not to retain experienced cruisers like me but to court new ones.

 

There's an economic contraction coming in the US, one that coincides with an unprecedented number of berths to fill as newer and bigger ships enter service. The fall in housing prices alone will result in a reduction in discretionary spending, and this isn't the only cloud on the economic horizon that puts more pressure on the cruise industry. To me, even the lower prices we can expect to result from increased competition and a tougher economic environment can't offset the reduced value of the experience.

 

Am I alone in this conclusion or basing it on a few bad experiences? Do those of you who've been cruising for years agree or not? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[eh2zed]

Bostom, there have been many threads and posts on most Cruise Line CC Boards lamenting the decline. It is all related to the mass marketing of cruises. Experienced cruisers realize it while the new masses likely don't know. The upside is that cruising is cheaper than it was a few years back. But you only get what you pay for. People who want the old standards are likely going to have to go to Crystal, Regent, etc. JMO

[bububr]

IMHO

 

Is because of the pricing more families with children are travelling, along with the SUPER SIZED ships that take away the personal attentions.

 

If the kids are happy the adults will let the food and service slide as long as they feel they are getting their monies worth and the ship will sit their children as they drink by the pool.

 

I'm in no way against children travelling, but over the years I have seen the numbers grow in masses and with it the declines in dress code and conduct.

 

Dave:eek:

[johno95]

I believe in the pendulum action of things. Eventually things will change, but I am not sure how. Perhaps prices will rise, along with service, on some of the ships. People with kids who want less service and just want to sit by the pool will have that...on ships designed for the masses.

 

So we might see higher prices again, if you want old fashioned quality.

[Happy ks]

I haven't been cruising nearly as long as you, only since 1998, but I have definitely seen a decline in service and unfortunately, the behavior of pax.

 

As much as I hate to say it, I believe it is because society over-all has lowered their standards and expectations of behavior. Fast food has become the norm, jeans are now choices for dress-up, foul language is acceptable, bad behavior is no longer a reason to feel shame.

 

My last few cruises I've noticed the staff and crew are now becoming more familiar, sharing with pax their woes and service is definitely more casual. I'm not one who thinks I'm above anyone and I do enjoy hearing about their homeland and family, I just don't feel the need to hear complaints about working conditions. In kind I won't complain to them about my job or anything else. Either the cruise lines have cut back on levels of employment and the working conditions have become much worse than before, or like I think it may be, the crew is lowering their standards in reaction to the client served.

 

What to do? Either find a different mode of travel, pay the price for a more luxury cruise line or start mentioning these feelings on complaint cards, the cruise lines do pay attention to those!

[BobBeaSea]

For the OP, no you are not alone. I've only been on 5 cruises, all with RCI. First 2 were '90 & '93, then '05, '06, '07. The changes over time are immense. If and when we cruise again and, assuming we can afford it (I think we can), we will look at a premium line, such as Regent for example. It's time to try something that isn't mass market.

[Amy from Delaware]

We are pre-first-cruisers, but I've been reading (and posting) on CC for a few months. We have a reservation for next spring, which I made because I've always wanted to go on a cruise, and now Royal Caribbean is sailing from NJ, which makes it an easy deal for us, since we live in NJ.

 

My DH was not keen on the idea, but is going because he knows how much I want to try cruising. But after reading so many of the threads here, I'm starting to have second thoughts. All of the things the OP sited in this thread are making me realize that maybe cruising just isn't going to be our cup of tea after all.

 

We don't like rude people, and I'm getting more and more concerned that we will be stuck for over a week with people who don't know how to behave. We were/are looking forward to the ammenities on the ship, but I don't want to be in a situation where some stranger has the ability to ruin my use of the ship, and the staff won't even enforce the rules.

 

While I'm not ready to cancel our reservation just yet, I am certainly considering it while I do research to find a different vacation for us next spring/summer.

 

I'm sad that it appears I've "missed the boat" and I wish I'd tried cruising 20 years ago.

[randy98mtu]

I'm new to cruising. My first cruise was on Millenium in 2006. So I have no benchmark. But to me, the food and service were fantastic. Some interior touches in the ship looked dated and aged, but nothing horrible. We had an amazing time and like I said, the food was terrific. We just booked our second cruise on Infinity for October 08!

[johno95]

three rings,

 

i want to respond to your concern, but i must first ask you what age bracket you and your husband are in, and what cruise ship did you plan to take out of NJ?

 

John

49 y.o.

 

p.s. we are going out of Bayonne in 3 days!

 

...While I'm not ready to cancel our reservation just yet, I am certainly considering it while I do research to find a different vacation for us next spring/summer.

 

I'm sad that it appears I've "missed the boat" and I wish I'd tried cruising 20 years ago.

[morriscats]

We are pre-first-cruisers, but I've been reading (and posting) on CC for a few months. We have a reservation for next spring, which I made because I've always wanted to go on a cruise, and now Royal Caribbean is sailing from NJ, which makes it an easy deal for us, since we live in NJ.

 

My DH was not keen on the idea, but is going because he knows how much I want to try cruising. But after reading so many of the threads here, I'm starting to have second thoughts. All of the things the OP sited in this thread are making me realize that maybe cruising just isn't going to be our cup of tea after all.

 

We don't like rude people, and I'm getting more and more concerned that we will be stuck for over a week with people who don't know how to behave. We were/are looking forward to the ammenities on the ship, but I don't want to be in a situation where some stranger has the ability to ruin my use of the ship, and the staff won't even enforce the rules.

 

While I'm not ready to cancel our reservation just yet, I am certainly considering it while I do research to find a different vacation for us next spring/summer.

 

I'm sad that it appears I've "missed the boat" and I wish I'd tried cruising 20 years ago.

 

Please don't form any opinions until you try it. Yes I have seen changes since I first started cruising (on the old Carnivale in 1980) but most have been for the good. Once we set foot on whichever ship it is we start relaxing. Yes you might see some rude people but you can find that anywhere. For the most part the staff and crew go out of their way to make your cruise wonderful. Just go with the idea that nothing is perfect - but you are on this beautiful ship with no cooking, cleaning, or anything else you don't want to do. Relax, smile at those who smile at you and disregard the rest. I think you just might become "hooked" like we are. Have fun!

[Amy from Delaware]

three rings,

 

i want to respond to your concern, but i must first ask you what age bracket you and your husband are in, and what cruise ship did you plan to take out of NJ?

 

John

49 y.o.

 

p.s. we are going out of Bayonne in 3 days!

 

I'm 48, he's 53. Explorer of the Seas. I'm interested to know what you have to share :) Thanks.

[Happy ks]

We are pre-first-cruisers, but I've been reading (and posting) on CC for a few months. We have a reservation for next spring, which I made because I've always wanted to go on a cruise, and now Royal Caribbean is sailing from NJ, which makes it an easy deal for us, since we live in NJ.

 

My DH was not keen on the idea, but is going because he knows how much I want to try cruising. But after reading so many of the threads here, I'm starting to have second thoughts. All of the things the OP sited in this thread are making me realize that maybe cruising just isn't going to be our cup of tea after all.

 

We don't like rude people, and I'm getting more and more concerned that we will be stuck for over a week with people who don't know how to behave. We were/are looking forward to the ammenities on the ship, but I don't want to be in a situation where some stranger has the ability to ruin my use of the ship, and the staff won't even enforce the rules.

 

While I'm not ready to cancel our reservation just yet, I am certainly considering it while I do research to find a different vacation for us next spring/summer.

 

I'm sad that it appears I've "missed the boat" and I wish I'd tried cruising 20 years ago.

 

 

Please don't dismay :) , it's not all gloom and doom!

 

I am always amazed at some of the rudeness on this board, but you have to remember that being anonymous people will do things they wouldn't dare do in public. You will read more comments on dress code, smoking, little kids etc.... than you will ever hear onboard a ship.

 

I think it can depend on the ship you choose. If we could we would avoid main stream lines, unfortunately we can't afford the higher priced lines while raising kids :p . Stay away from the shorter cruises, unless you are close to port and use it as a quick getaway (we do this, but we can drive and know to step down a few notches with expectations).

 

Even on our worst cruise, we have found that it is better than staying home! Yes, it has changed over the years, but it isn't a hopeless situation, it's just different. So, do try it before finalizing your judgement. After 12 cruises, I have to say that while I've noticed a decline in service and a few other instances, it's not horrid, not by a long shot!

[BobBeaSea]

For Three Rings...do not worry. You are going on your first cruise and I can assure you you will be overwhelmed by it. It will be one of the best vacations you've ever had. :) You know, cruising is like a lot of things, the first time is very special, especially on today's ships. You picked a good one - we were on Explorer out of Cape Liberty this past May for a 9 nighter to Bermuda and Eastern Caribbean...it was a fine cruise, nothing wrong with it at all.

 

Not having cruised yet you have no benchmarks and no preconceived notions, except for what you read on the these boards :). Don't take what you read hear as everyday common occurences - they are not. The membership of this board is less than 1% of the people who will cruise this year. Only a small portion of the membership will actually take a cruise this year. I can guarantee with certainty you and your husband will have a wonderful time...ONLY IF YOU DON'T STRESS YOURSELF OUT :D.

 

Where some of us are coming from is the next step up in cruise lines above the mass market lines is probably close to where mass market (RCI for sure) was 17 years ago. For example, my recent RCI cruises were less money than they were 15 & 17 years ago, and that's WITHOUT accounting for inflation. In other words an upper scale line, such as Regent is closer to what our pricepoint was 17 years ago with inflation factored in.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the RCI product, they are very good at what they do and what they offer...:)

[Michael Kays]

Three Rings~

Don't give up hope. We were just on the Emerald Princess and have found it to be enjoyable, great service, and wonderful food.

 

I actualy witnessed on several ocassions ship staff inforcing the "no saving lounge chair" rule. Also the smoking rules are very clearly spelled out and enforced. As far as the dress code, I don't expect everyone to be able to wear a tux, or want to, some have scrimped and saved to take their dream vacation.

 

If I were you, and I was several years ago, I would not change my plans to cruise. That feeling you get the first time you see your ship, walking up the gangway onboard, walking around the ship in awe..priceless.

 

My bride of 30 years and I will continue to cruise, when we are onboard we are the only two people in the world that matter. Everything else is relative~

[johno95]

as you can see, we have gone on Explorer of the Seas b4. we are going again in about 3 days. i am 49, my wife is 43.

 

we loved this ship. we have never seen passengers of such a wide age range, from seniors to the young, but mostly 40s and 50s. like any ship, i suppose, people are doing there own thing, and don't pay attention to others as much. i think you get more intimacy with a smaller ship. this ship is not small. but i didn't think the other passengers were rude. or UNfriendly.

 

we sailed during the school year, so there weren't too many kids.

 

you wrote:

 

We don't like rude people, and I'm getting more and more concerned that we will be stuck for over a week with people who don't know how to behave. We were/are looking forward to the ammenities on the ship, but I don't want to be in a situation where some stranger has the ability to ruin my use of the ship, and the staff won't even enforce the rules.

 

i like sailing with people that are like me. in other words, my age, no kids with them, white collar/professional, etc. when i am around these people, paradoxically, i think they're friendly. maybe i just happened to be friendly towards them too.

 

i hope you enjoy your cruise. all in all, i think you just have to try the ship and see.

 

I'm 48, he's 53. Explorer of the Seas. I'm interested to know what you have to share :) Thanks.

[caviargal]

 

 

Where some of us are coming from is the next step up in cruise lines above the mass market lines is probably close to where mass market (RCI for sure) was 17 years ago. For example, my recent RCI cruises were less money than they were 15 & 17 years ago, and that's WITHOUT accounting for inflation. In other words an upper scale line, such as Regent is closer to what our pricepoint was 17 years ago with inflation factored in.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the RCI product, they are very good at what they do and what they offer...:)

 

I agree with BobSeaSea. If you have nothing to compare it to, then you will likely think it is terrific. First time cruisers are often dazzled by the ships and what they offer.

 

However, on RCI's Explorer during spring, if it is anywhere near spring break, will have a ton of kids and families aboard. IME, this is the worst time to cruise unless you also have kids and are looking for a totally family oriented vacation. The big ships of RCI attract families and lots of them and this is compounded during holiday periods.

 

As one who has found the decline of cruising to be a real issue for my personal taste, I would suggest that - if you are looking for a less frenetic and crowded experience - you choose a smaller ship at a different time of year. RCI is indeed good at what they do and even within their fleet there are different styles and personalities of ships. I think the Radiance class are the best they have to offer and would suggest you look at one of those sisters instead.

 

The lowered costs of cruising come with a high price: lots more spent on extras, many more families travelling which changes the onboard ambiance from the way it was in the "old days", overcrowded ports, a more casual and relaxed atmosphere and monster ships that pack on the crowds. There are still traditional experiences to be had on the mass market lines/ships but it takes some research to find them.

[Fredr]

Hello,

 

Based on my 19 cruises including three cruises during the past nine months, I agree in part and I disagree in part, that cruise standards have deteriorated. Sadly , there are people going on cruises who have no idea what a cruise should be. On our cruise to Alaska, we saw a couple wear their bathrobes as they walked around the ship, and this wasn't to the pool and back. And because a cruise is such a wonderful vacation for all...seniors, families, teens, it is expected that millions will try a cruise vacation.

 

I disagree that standards have fallen so badly that people should no longer go on cruises, or that the only alternative are the ultra luxury cruise lines. I believe that you must carefully look at each ship, itinerary, time of year, and price when making your decision on a cruise.

 

As for me, I hope to go on many more cruises and I understand that a cruise today is not the same as our first...Island Princess through the Panama Canal in 1976.

 

Hope that this helps.

 

Fred

[Amy from Delaware]

Three Rings~

My bride of 30 years and I will continue to cruise, when we are onboard we are the only two people in the world that matter. Everything else is relative~

 

Beautiful! I love your perspective.

 

If you have nothing to compare it to, then you will likely think it is terrific. First time cruisers are often dazzled by the ships and what they offer.

 

We've been on plenty of vacations, so although we have no cruises to compare, we do have something to use as a comparison. We like to stay in nice hotels and go to nice restaurants, and we go to shows and concerts, etc.

 

As one who has found the decline of cruising to be a real issue for my personal taste, I would suggest that - if you are looking for a less frenetic and crowded experience - you choose a smaller ship at a different time of year. RCI is indeed good at what they do and even within their fleet there are different styles and personalities of ships. I think the Radiance class are the best they have to offer and would suggest you look at one of those sisters instead.

 

We traveled quite a bit before DH became disabled and travel became tricky. Unfortuately, for us, flying isn't an option at this point, so we're "stuck" with ships that sail from a reasonable drive from us. Our last several vacations have been "driving intensive" (aka 1600 miles in 7 days), and I'm the only driver! That's the main reason a cruise out of Bayonne is so attractive: drive about an hour, get on the ship, and let "someone else do the driving" :) So we'll either go on Explorer, or do something else. I'm still leaning toward cruising.

 

I appreciate the comments from those who pointed out that most cruising experiences are positive. I'm sure they must be, or people wouldn't be so obsessed.

[BobBeaSea]

Three Rings, the people here aren't obsessed...they're just nuts!! :D

[celle]

After 17 cruises in the past 9 years, I'm starting to think the bloom is off the rose. Our cruise on the MAASDAM in July was indicative of just how far Holland-America's standards seemed to have fallen from the last time we were on the AMSTERDAM. While we still like 'em well enough, (best of all, considering what we've seen and heard lately) we have seen declines in the quality of Celebrity's food - once their signature. Friends who just returned from Alaska on a Princess cruise were appalled by what they found on board and were - until last week - big Princess fans. Our last QM2 cruise couldn't hold a candle in terms of overall quality to our previous QE2 and CARONIA cruises.

 

More than the cutbacks we see in terms of food quality and staffing levels (cabin stewards seem to have had twice as many cabins as before, waiters are overwhelmed, wine costs much more, the luxury items on the menu have disappeared, portions are smaller) or in the absence of the small touches that once distinguished one ship or line from another, the worst trend I've seen is the increasing non-responsiveness of management: "We're sorry" used to mean something. How do I know? Because it lead to fixing the problem being apologized for. Now it seems an empty phrase because while one's complaint is acknowledged, too often no improvement or change results: the service/food/plumbing problems continue.

 

To be fair, it's most often not the Front Desk/housekeeper's/maitre d's fault, but it used to be within their power to fix. More and more they can't seem to fix a problem because they're so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of complaints, or can't because they don't have the resources to do so, or as a consequence of both have just given up. On one hand, I can't say that I blame them: they know better than me how much worse things have gotten. On the other, who else do you go to?

 

Despite thick manuals in the cabin detailing the "do's and don'ts" of cruise etiquette and expected behavior for those without either common sense or simple courtesy; time after time, on cruise after cruise, we see breaches of basic issues of health, safety, and comfort ignored by shipboard staff. Smoking happens wherever and whenever, regardless of whatever the rules are; toddlers in diapers in the hot tub has become a regular occurrence when we sail, and the rowdy-unto-vulgar behavior of some kids (and worse, some adults) are all - increasingly - the rule, not the exception. I surmise they're afraid to enforce their own rules for fear of offending the customers who don't follow them. When will they realize that in so doing, they're losing those of us who do?

 

I know that in real dollar terms the price of a cruise is as low or lower than it was nine years ago, but to me the decline in standards - however defined - far exceeds the decline in cost. It has got me thinking that cruising is no longer what it was, that the hassle isn't offset by the reward, and that my vacation dollars will soon go elsewhere. I know too that the industry's model is, increasingly, not to retain experienced cruisers like me but to court new ones.

 

There's an economic contraction coming in the US, one that coincides with an unprecedented number of berths to fill as newer and bigger ships enter service. The fall in housing prices alone will result in a reduction in discretionary spending, and this isn't the only cloud on the economic horizon that puts more pressure on the cruise industry. To me, even the lower prices we can expect to result from increased competition and a tougher economic environment can't offset the reduced value of the experience.

 

Am I alone in this conclusion or basing it on a few bad experiences? Do those of you who've been cruising for years agree or not? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

Apart from all that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play? Was there anything you liked about your recent cruises? Maybe 17 cruises in 9 years is just too many and you have got bored and jaded?

 

You know the saying, "Misery loves company"? I am sure that, if you make a point of talking to people who are dissatisfied, you will increase your own dissatisfaction.

 

As one of the industry's newer cruisers (one Mediterranean cruise and one to Alaska), I have been perfectly satisfied with my cruising experiences.

 

• The food is far superior to what I cook at home;
  
• I have my room cleaned and my bed made daily;
  
• Cabin attendants and dining room staff have all been polite and helpful;
  
• I have not seen any kids in pools in diapers;
  
• All the smokers I have encountered have been considerate, and have not smoked anywhere apart from designated areas of the ships;
  
• One the one occasion I encountered a problem, it was dealt with politely and promptly;
  
• No children have been running wild;
  
• No teenagers/ kids/ adults have behaved in a rowdy or vulgar fashion (and if they did, I would not let it spoil my vacation, as it is not my place to critique their behaviour).

There are still luxury cruises available (at premium prices) if you want to be "spoiled" and have all the little extras you seem to desire.

[BobBeaSea]

Celle, don't be too hard on the OP. Some of us know exactly the OP is talking about and you, being a newer cruiser, haven't got a clue of what the OP is saying...totally understandable. If you had cruised on mass market lines when the OP did, you too would have a better understanding...he is discussing the watering down of cruise lines which were far better then than they are today...nothing more, nothing less. The only answer is (and it could be iffy as well) is move up a bracket or two and give it a try. This would be my advice.

 

There is no need to berate the OP and do a diagnosis while you do it. Perhaps your scolding is what the OP refers to when the OP mentions the decline of "common sense", "cruise etiquette" and "simple courtesy" with respect to expected behaviour onboard.

[celle]

Celle, don't be too hard on the OP. Some of us know exactly the OP is talking about and you, being a newer cruiser, haven't got a clue of what the OP is saying...totally understandable. If you had cruised on mass market lines when the OP did, you too would have a better understanding...he is discussing the watering down of cruise lines which were far better then than they are today...nothing more, nothing less. The only answer is (and it could be iffy as well) is move up a bracket or two and give it a try. This would be my advice.

 

There is no need to berate the OP and do a diagnosis while you do it. Perhaps your scolding is what the OP refers to when the OP mentions the decline of "common sense", "cruise etiquette" and "simple courtesy" with respect to expected behaviour onboard.

 

In my part of the world, we call the OP's original post "whinging".

 

I do not think that I was "scolding" him/her, merely expressing my reaction to the post. My main reason for doing so was because of the posts that followed, when several people appeared apprehensive about cruising because of the OP's negativity.

 

Just because I expressed my opinion and volunteered some observations, please do not assume that I am lacking in "common sense", "cruise etiquette" and "simple courtesy".

 

I stand by my opinion that the OP wants elitist service and, for that, he/she should be prepared to pay premium prices, not to expect that level of service at prices that are comparable to hotels (without the meals and travel thrown in).

[Happy ks]

What does whinging mean?

[blindrid]

We are pre-first-cruisers, but I've been reading (and posting) on CC for a few months. We have a reservation for next spring, which I made because I've always wanted to go on a cruise, and now Royal Caribbean is sailing from NJ, which makes it an easy deal for us, since we live in NJ.

 

My DH was not keen on the idea, but is going because he knows how much I want to try cruising. But after reading so many of the threads here, I'm starting to have second thoughts. All of the things the OP sited in this thread are making me realize that maybe cruising just isn't going to be our cup of tea after all.

 

We don't like rude people, and I'm getting more and more concerned that we will be stuck for over a week with people who don't know how to behave. We were/are looking forward to the ammenities on the ship, but I don't want to be in a situation where some stranger has the ability to ruin my use of the ship, and the staff won't even enforce the rules.

 

While I'm not ready to cancel our reservation just yet, I am certainly considering it while I do research to find a different vacation for us next spring/summer.

 

I'm sad that it appears I've "missed the boat" and I wish I'd tried cruising 20 years ago.

 

I for one votes for you not to cancel. I try to take annual cruises and I still enjoy them regardless of what others may say. I have never been around too many rude people even though you will always run into an occasional a** as you would anywhere. I go to have fun and will continue.

 

I'm not questioning the OP as they have been cruising longer than if one still wants an elegant cruise, I would suggest going to the higher end lines. I for one will stay with the mainstream lines due to their value and enjoyable experience I've had in the past.

[celle]

What does whinging mean?

 

According to the Oxford Dictionary, whinging = "a whining complaint or a peevish grumbling".