Fuel Supplement announced (4 merged threads)

[kb4683]

The Royal Caribbean board seems to have a much greater activity on the issue of the fuel surcharge. In reviewing recent posts there, I noted that at least one CC member indicated that they had received notification from RCI that since they made final payment on 11/16, the fuel surcharge fee would be waived. I made final payment on 11/16 based on the information that was posted on this board. It will be interesting to see if the RCCL waiver also applies to Celebrity and whether it will be waived for future final payments for pax that made full deposits prior to 11/16.

 

 

Hummmmm, I called Celebrity CS on 11/16 to see if I could avoid the surcharge if I made final payment and was told "sorry, it's too late".

[larronry]

As you can see from my upcoming cruises I was not hit by this by Celebrity, but was my future Carnival cruise. I had decided to try out Carnival's newest ship because it had intrigued me (first sailing in July) and thought it would be a good ship to bring my then 3 year old. Anyway I wasn't as upset by it when Carnival did it because in following prices over the past couple of years Carnival hasn't raised it's prices too much (At least on the lines that I have been looking at which mainly have been Carnival, Princess, and a little bit of HAL).

 

Celebrity, however has gotten a lot more expensive for similar cruises over the past few years so I had assumed that part of that was do to increase in fuel costs both in fueling the ship and other related fuel cost expenditures (i.e.: getting food to the port). From our 2004 cruise to our canceled 2006 cruise we took an equivalent category cabin on a different ship and paid nearly double for a 7 day cruise. 2004 was a Western Caribbean 2006 an Eastern. This year that 2006 cruise is still more expensive if you didn't book it last December.

 

I am just finding it hard to understand how they are saying they haven't taken fuel cost enough into account.

[FinelyCruising]

Look at the language in the printed brochures.

 

You're kiding...right??? If anyone thinks that a brochure is a contract then I don't know what.

[jobob]

I agree about the mirroring, which is why I think one can put some reliance on the contracts of the mother company for guidance, with exception of specialty ships, or European contracts since their laws differ. X and RCCL brochure langage certainly mirrors each other. As a poster down thread mentions, a difference between the brochure, advertisement, and the contract (especially as a poster down thread states is only received after final payment!) would be a different issue.

 

Alas, I never save my old contracts, once fulfulled, but I am wondering how another poster found the old language on line for RCCL.

 

Thanks for the well wishes.

 

When I made my reservation I received a CONFIRMATION INVOICE - GUEST COPY. In addition to the information about the itinerary, etc. a remarks section states: THIS BOOKING IS GOVERNED BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THE CRUISE/CRUISETOUR TICKET CONTRACT. A COPY IS AVAILABLE ONLINE AT http://www.royalcaribbean.com. After final payment and 45-60 days before a cruise you receive the actual docs (either uspo or email) which include the contract. I have edocs dated 10/26/2007 which end with line 20 and make no mention of fuel charges, etc. and I have edocs dated 11/17/2007 (for a late addition to my group) which contain line 21.

 

I have the FAQ web page that states my price will not change unless government taxes and fees change. I downloaded it onto my computer on Nov 11, 2007.

 

If anyone would like me to email copies I would be happy to do so.

[FinelyCruising]

Since this is the X board, I suppose you mean to specifically fortify the masses on the Royal Boards...

 

But having understood the content you descibed, what have you done with it in your desire to avoid and refuse the imposed surcharge for fuel?

[Jade13]

You're kiding...right??? If anyone thinks that a brochure is a contract then I don't know what.

 

I am not an attorney but isn't it reasonable to assume that Terms and Conditions for a 2008/2009 Brochure would be accurate? These terms are not printed on the pdf mailed to me at booking, so I have nothing else to go by. And by the way, Celebrity has not e-mailed me about this surcharge and I booked directly through them.

[jobob]

Since this is the X board, I suppose you mean to specifically fortify the masses on the Royal Boards...

 

But having understood the content you descibed, what have you done with it in your desire to avoid and refuse the imposed surcharge for fuel?

 

Thanks for asking. I was responding to jaxon41's question about the old language for RCCL.

 

I have contacted the Fl AG and my states AG and will forward the documents upon their request. I have made numerous posts regarding the subject throughout this board. I do not have a problem paying the supplement on bookings I make in the future. I am a Platinum C&A member and a RCL shareholder and do not agree with the decision to charge customers who were making decisions based on facts (yes, facts) presented on RCCL's website and in their contracts. But, I guess that's pretty obvious.

 

Would like me to email you copies?

[Jade13]

When I made my reservation I received a CONFIRMATION INVOICE - GUEST COPY. In addition to the information about the itinerary, etc. a remarks section states: THIS BOOKING IS GOVERNED BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THE CRUISE/CRUISETOUR TICKET CONTRACT. A COPY IS AVAILABLE ONLINE AT www.royalcaribbean.com. After final payment and 45-60 days before a cruise you receive the actual docs (either uspo or email) which include the contract. I have edocs dated 10/26/2007 which end with line 20 and make no mention of fuel charges, etc. and I have edocs dated 11/17/2007 (for a late addition to my group) which contain line 21.

 

I have the FAQ web page that states my price will not change unless government taxes and fees change. I downloaded it onto my computer on Nov 11, 2007.

 

If anyone would like me to email copies I would be happy to do so.

 

Do you have an e-mail address without your full name that you can post? I'm still not sure this can help anyone who needs a Terms and Conditions with "Celebrity" written a the top.

[jobob]

D then WARD then 3159 using aol. Make sure to note it is for information about cruisecritic posts - I don't open anything from unknown sources. It will come to you as an attachment.

[FinelyCruising]

I am not an attorney but isn't it reasonable to assume that Terms and Conditions for a 2008/2009 Brochure would be accurate? These terms are not printed on the pdf mailed to me at booking, so I have nothing else to go by. And by the way, Celebrity has not e-mailed me about this surcharge and I booked directly through them.

 

No, since the printing is so far in advance of what may happen to change the universe in a short stroke, AND that brochure is not a contract by any means....it's an advertisement of a snapshot of what was occuring at the time the booklet went to press. To suggest the cruiselines business is to predict fuel futures would put them in another industry entirely.

 

Itineraries change from the printing time, ships may be sold, prices may change, the brochure outlines a variety of options that are available, but none would I ever consider to be hard and fast knowing what I know about cruising on a particular date one or two years into the future.

 

Now if you want to argue you are a first time cruiser and had no idea...

[FinelyCruising]

Thanks for asking. I was responding to jaxon41's question about the old language for RCCL.

 

I have contacted the Fl AG and my states AG and will forward the documents upon their request. I have made numerous posts regarding the subject throughout this board. I do not have a problem paying the supplement on bookings I make in the future. I am a Platinum C&A member and a RCL shareholder and do not agree with the decision to charge customers who were making decisions based on facts (yes, facts) presented on RCCL's website and in their contracts. But, I guess that's pretty obvious.

 

Would like me to email you copies?

 

No, I think I will wait to hear what your state's AG has to say about the whole thing when you post that update, but I'm hoping fuel prices might have gone down by then, or the cruiselines prices will have eeped up to absorb them and eveyone goes on and has a happy day.

 

I don't know about your state, but in my state there are several industries that are allowed to add the line item for fuel surcharge above and beyond the initially contracted price (where two parties actually execute a document), and this practice has been obvious for a while now because of the fuel costs.

 

In addition, my corporate reimbursement rate for fuel/mileage increases hold as the market refuses to down turn, so this is not new to me. I might be a bit more de-sensitized as a result of my day to day environment, but it is reality to me nevertheless.

 

As a result I am not too phased by the idea passed on by cruiselines assuming they are not making money on the surcharge revenue.

[Jade13]

D then WARD then 3159 using aol. Make sure to note it is for information about cruisecritic posts - I don't open anything from unknown sources. It will come to you as an attachment.

 

Ok, Let me know if you get the e-mail?

 

Hopefully someone downloaded the Celebrity Contract prior to 11/16?

[jobob]

No, I think I will wait to hear what your state's AG has to say about the whole thing when you post that update, but I'm hoping fuel prices might have gone down by then, or the cruiselines prices will have eeped up to absorb them and eveyone goes on and has a happy day.

 

I don't know about your state, but in my state there are several industries that are allowed to add the line item for fuel surcharge above and beyond the initially contracted price (where two parties actually execute a document), and this practice has been obvious for a while now because of the fuel costs.

 

In addition, my corporate reimbursement rate for fuel/mileage increases hold as the market refuses to down turn, so this is not new to me. I might be a bit more de-sensitized as a result of my day to day environment, but it is reality to me nevertheless.

 

As a result I am not too phased by the idea passed on by cruiselines assuming they are not making money on the surcharge revenue.

 

If both parties have knowledge of a possible surcharge prior to executing the contract, that's fine. If they don't then what?

[Susan-M]

I have the FAQ web page that states my price will not change unless government taxes and fees change. I downloaded it onto my computer on Nov 11, 2007.

 

 

I probably missed the answer to this in one of your earlier posts, but have you asked RCCL for an explanation of the legality of adding the surcharge in view of the above statement?

[jobob]

I probably missed the answer to this in one of your earlier posts, but have you asked RCCL for an explanation of the legality of adding the surcharge in view of the above statement?

 

I have not heard back. Probably, the holiday weekend. Have you heard anything?

[Jade13]

I probably missed the answer to this in one of your earlier posts, but have you asked RCCL for an explanation of the legality of adding the surcharge in view of the above statement?

 

This was e-mailed to me and on the RCCL web page prior to the change

 

"After You Purchase

 

Q:

Will the price of my cruise change?

 

A:

Once a reservation has been deposited or paid full,

(whichever is applicable at the time the reservation

is made), the price of the cruise will not change. The

total price may change if government taxes and fees

change. Royal Caribbean has no control over these

fees. "

 

I am waiting for somone to confirm that Celebrity said the same thing?

[LETS PARTY]

Ok, Let me know if you get the e-mail?

 

Hopefully someone downloaded the Celebrity Contract prior to 11/16?

 

I printed it off when I filled out the on line information, you have to check the box that you read and except the terms

It says cruise ticket contract, I printed it 11/10/2007

it has 20 parg. not 21

I see nothing about being able to add additional cost

I was able to read, view & print before final payment

I would scan and attach if I new how

Rob

[DaveFr]

I've put the contract from my 9/2/07 Celebrity cruise on Webshots. Just click on the image below to open Webshots and see the three pages of the contract. While there is no paragraph 21 in the pre 11/15/07 contract, there still may be a practical problem for those who booked prior to 11/15/07 but had not made their final payment by that date.

 

During online check in or during check in at the pier, passengers must agree to the terms of Celebrity's contract. I'm sure the contract that will be presented for acceptance will be the post 11/15/07 contract containing paragraph 21 which allows fuel surcharges. Paragraph 19 of both contracts is identical and says that the contract supersedes all other agreements, written or oral that relate to the subject matter (i.e., the cruise). Celebrity may say that you will not be allowed to board your ship unless you accept the post 11/15/07 contract as part of check in. Paragraph 19 of both contracts also says that waiver of any provision of the contract (i.e., paragraph 21) must be in writing and signed by Celebrity.

 

Now, I have little doubt that a policy of making passengers, who booked prior to 11/15/07, accept the terms of the post 11/15/07 contract as a condition of boarding their ship would be found to be void as against public policy if litigated in court.

 

The practical problem for passengers is that unless the Florida AG acts, a passenger who wants to go on a particular cruise and does not want to cancel will have to accept the new contract terms, pay the fuel surcharge and then litigate the issue in the Florida courts. I'm sure Celebrity is counting on the fact that most people would not go to the expense of individually litigating a maximum surcharge of $140 per stateroom in the Florida courts.

 

In any event, click on the image below to see the old contract.

 

Dave

[Jade13]

I've put the contract from my 9/2/07 Celebrity cruise on Webshots. Just click on the image below to open Webshots and see the three pages of the contract. While there is no paragraph 21 in the pre 11/15/07 contract, there still may be a practical problem for those who booked prior to 11/15/07 but had not made their final payment by that date.

 

During online check in or during check in at the pier, passengers must agree to the terms of Celebrity's contract. I'm sure the contract that will be presented for acceptance will be the post 11/15/07 contract containing paragraph 21 which allows fuel surcharges. Paragraph 19 of both contracts is identical and says that the contract supersedes all other agreements, written or oral that relate to the subject matter (i.e., the cruise). Celebrity may say that you will not be allowed to board your ship unless you accept the post 11/15/07 contract as part of check in. Paragraph 19 of both contracts also says that waiver of any provision of the contract (i.e., paragraph 21) must be in writing and signed by Celebrity.

 

Now, I have little doubt that a policy of making passengers, who booked prior to 11/15/07, accept the terms of the post 11/15/07 contract as a condition of boarding their ship would be found to be void as against public policy if litigated in court.

 

The practical problem for passengers is that unless the Florida AG acts, a passenger who wants to go on a particular cruise and does not want to cancel will have to accept the new contract terms, pay the fuel surcharge and then litigate the issue in the Florida courts. I'm sure Celebrity is counting on the fact that most people would not go to the expense of individually litigating a maximum surcharge of $140 per stateroom in the Florida courts.

 

In any event, click on the image below to see the old contract.

 

Dave

 

Dave,

 

Thanks. Is there any other difference (after 11/15) besides the addition of Section/Number 21?

 

Is there a print function? Folks would need to print and then scan to PDF (and many do not have scanners) in order to attach it to an e-mail to forward to the AG.

[Jade13]

I printed it off when I filled out the on line information, you have to check the box that you read and except the terms

It says cruise ticket contract, I printed it 11/10/2007

it has 20 parg. not 21

I see nothing about being able to add additional cost

I was able to read, view & print before final payment

I would scan and attach if I new how

Rob

 

Do you have a scanner? If not, have someone scan for you (just the Terms Section - not your personal info) and make into a pdf file. Maybe someone will offer their web site as a place to post (where others can download) f you don't want a lot of people e-mailing you for a copy.

[Jade13]

I decided to pay online and see if they add the surcharge. This what it said on the payment page:

 

*Note: For North America reservations, a fuel supplement of $5.00 per day per person for the first two occupants of a stateroom (Subject to a maximum of $140per Stateroom) will apply to all sailings departing on or after February 1,2008.

 

We appreciate your understanding while we update our systems to reflect the fuel supplement in the reservation summary.

 

I went ahead and made my payment to see if I could out smart the system. No surcharge showed up on my Final Payment confirmation.

 

Did the surcharge show up or not?

[Jade13]

 

Now, I have little doubt that a policy of making passengers, who booked prior to 11/15/07, accept the terms of the post 11/15/07 contract as a condition of boarding their ship would be found to be void as against public policy if litigated in court.

 

 

I called and was told we can not board if the surcharge is not paid.

[DaveFr]

Please ignore.

[DaveFr]

Dave,

 

Thanks. Is there any other difference (after 11/15) besides the addition of Section/Number 21?

 

Is there a print function? Folks would need to print and then scan to PDF (and many do not have scanners) in order to attach it to an e-mail to forward to the AG.

I didn't compare the two contracts word-for-word but my impression from scanning them was that the only difference between them was the addition of paragraph 21.

 

As for printing, you can order prints from Webshots. I'll post three messages following this message. Each message will contain one page of the contract. You can then save each page on your PC as a jpg file which can be printed.

[DaveFr]