Large Group Cruises

[peaches from georgia]

As someone else posted I think information that this happened at least 3 years ago, and as we know is still going on, is very relevant when Seattle seems to be pretending this Park West situation was all a surprise. :rolleyes:

[fcorey]

[quote name='jtl513']Is 3 yr old info relevant? (Some is, yes, but is this?)

But since the thread has been resurrected, it might as well be updated: there is now a way to find out about many (if not all) large groups on a sailing: [URL="http://www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php"]www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php[/URL][/quote]

Thanks for posting the link, I hadnt remembered that one

[hammybee]

[quote name='jtl513']Is 3 yr old info relevant? (Some is, yes, but is this?)

But since the thread has been resurrected, it might as well be updated: there is now a way to find out about many (if not all) large groups on a sailing: [URL="http://www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php"]www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php[/URL][/QUOTE]

This web site is useful and can be found in a sticky at the top of the HAL board. It is important to note that "richwmn" posts information to this site, based upon what we send him/her. The 6/30 Oosterdam is a curiosity. A poster concluded, based upon something, probably the organizer's self promotion, that the group was going to be 800 strong. Another poster,who is employed by a cruise line, with many inter-cruise line connections, reported that the size was probably closer to 250. That's a big difference.
Who is right? I have no idea.

A while back, a poster got a lot of people worked up about a college alumni group, on his/her sailing. Everyone had visions of spring break. The reality was it was a group of about 50+/-, middle-aged cruisers who enjoy sailing together and do so every year.

There are two Jazz Sea cruises of size, posted. The organizer is a poster on this board and is up-front about accommodations and that is sincerely appreciated. The wild card is that the number is a projected number at this time. It's too premature to know the actual size of this or any potentially large group sailing 6-12+ months into the future.

And lastly, a group can be as small as 6-8 cabins and sometimes are nothing more than a handful of CC members who got together to cruise.

Every sailing, on every mass-marketed cruise line has groups onboard. Increasingly, groups are also on luxury cruise lines too. Occasionally, the size of the group means otherwise public areas of the ship may be closed off to non-group passengers. Sometimes it means the group will trump a dining time.
And sometimes, it means absolutely nothing. Like everyone else, I wish we knew ahead of time.

Cruising mass-marketed cruise lines means compromize. Those who do not want to compromize may not be well suited for cruising on mass-marketed cruise lines where the per person cost can range from $450- $4500 per person, for essentially the same out of cabin experience, exclusive of the perks, associated with suites.

[hammybee]

[quote name='peaches from georgia']As someone else posted I think information that this happened at least 3 years ago, and as we know is still going on, is very relevant when Seattle seems to be pretending this Park West situation was all a surprise. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

There are threads/posts about large groups going back at least 5 years. Park West was not a large group. Harbormaster reported 27 VIP passengers or cabins were hosted by Park West, hardly the majority in terms, of passengers.

The contribution of the VIP's to the bottom line of this cruise was probably enormous and greater than the combined onboard spending of the rest of the passengers. ( My sources of information are within CC messages- not necessarily on this forum) I understand it. It does not mean I agree with the outcome.

For now, this kind of stuff is a risk of cruising mass-marketed cruise lines.

[peaches from georgia]

[quote name='hammybee']There are threads/posts about large groups going back at least 5 years. Park West was not a large group. Harbormaster reported 27 VIP passengers or cabins were hosted by Park West, hardly the majority in terms, of passengers.

The contribution of the VIP's to the bottom line of this cruise was probably enormous and greater than the combined onboard spending of the rest of the passengers. ( My sources of information are within CC messages- not necessarily on this forum) I understand it. It does not mean I agree with the outcome.

For now, this kind of stuff is a risk of cruising mass-marketed cruise lines.[/QUOTE]
I understand all this. The point was that people were questioning if anything 3 yrs old had relevance today. Whether it is 3 yr old info or 30 yr old info is immaterial and the size of the group involved is even more irrelevant. HAL/Seattle is trying to pretend this closing of a popular public room for PW was a big surprise to them and we know it has been going on for at least 3 yrs and I'm sure a lot longer. Everyone understands the contribution of large groups to the bottom line and the risks of mass-market cruising. You keep repeating that ad nauseum. It has nothing to do with the post put up today here and on the PW thread. I don't remember Sails saying she had had this experience, but maybe she will come on here or on the PW thread and tell us more about it. Regardless, it happened and the fact HAL does this is no surprise to anyone in Seattle. That was the only point.

[appletx]

The large group on the 6/30 Oosterdam stated on their website that they had reserved 50% of the ship and they also state that their cruise is sold out now. However, from the activities they list, it does not appear that they have reserved any of the public spaces during public use hours. They state that their group will be taking advantage of the regularly scheduled ship programs and will have their own activities during hours when the facilities are not in public use. Hope that is the case.

However, it would be nice to know of large groups in advance of booking. Some groups might be more or less compatible than others and it would be good to know what the atmosphere might be when deciding which date to book. I guess that would not be practical.

While I would prefer a sailing that was not dominated by one huge group, I am sure we will have a great time on our cruise!

[richwmn]

[quote name='hammybee']This web site is useful and can be found in a sticky at the top of the HAL board. It is important to note that "richwmn" posts information to this site, based upon what we send him/her. The 6/30 Oosterdam is a curiosity. A poster concluded, based upon something, probably the organizer's self promotion, that the group was going to be 800 strong. Another poster,who is employed by a cruise line, with many inter-cruise line connections, reported that the size was probably closer to 250. That's a big difference.
Who is right? I have no idea.

A while back, a poster got a lot of people worked up about a college alumni group, on his/her sailing. Everyone had visions of spring break. The reality was it was a group of about 50+/-, middle-aged cruisers who enjoy sailing together and do so every year.

There are two Jazz Sea cruises of size, posted. The organizer is a poster on this board and is up-front about accommodations and that is sincerely appreciated. The wild card is that the number is a projected number at this time. It's too premature to know the actual size of this or any potentially large group sailing 6-12+ months into the future.

And lastly, a group can be as small as 6-8 cabins and sometimes are nothing more than a handful of CC members who got together to cruise.

Every sailing, on every mass-marketed cruise line has groups onboard. Increasingly, groups are also on luxury cruise lines too. Occasionally, the size of the group means otherwise public areas of the ship may be closed off to non-group passengers. Sometimes it means the group will trump a dining time.
And sometimes, it means absolutely nothing. Like everyone else, I wish we knew ahead of time.

Cruising mass-marketed cruise lines means compromize. Those who do not want to compromize may not be well suited for cruising on mass-marketed cruise lines where the per person cost can range from $450- $4500 per person, for essentially the same out of cabin experience, exclusive of the perks, associated with suites.[/quote]

I am going to chime in here just a bit. While it is true I post what others send, but I also have done some searches myself. Each person who has sent information has prompted additional searches based on the type of group that was reported.

I must also agree with another poster that said (in general) that the size of the group is not as important as how disruptive they are. ParkWest was a relatively small group but was very disruptive. Geek Cruises (who I sailed with once) is a larger group which does not get in the way. It seems that JazzSea is a (potentially) large group which at least attempts to minimize the disruption they cause, to the point of having some of their activities open to everyone.

It has been pointed out that almost every cruise has a "group" on it. Most are just passengers who booked together or through the same agent. For the most part we do not know these groups are aboard.

Thanks to all who have contributed, and I hope everyone has a great time even if there is a large group aboard.

Rich

[hammybee]

(Is that richwoman?) Anyway, I want to thank you for creating and maintaining the site, that is now a sticky on this board.

Just wanted to make sure that no one thought this information was the final word on any of these groups and would recognise that your time and effort is completely voluntary, based upon information you receive or gleam.

Some of the group web sites really hype their group cruises and make it sound like the event of the year. Some times it is, and sometimes not.

There are a few relatively significant group travel companies that are facing serious financial troubles, right now. They tend to charter entire ships as opposed to booking a large group and when they can't fill the ships, they have had to eat it. The business continues to evolve.

Thanks again for the good work you do.

[richwmn]

[quote name='hammybee'](Is that richwoman?) [/quote]
no - short for my last name. I didn't think of the "woman" connection when I started using it and by now it is all over the net, so it would be hard to stop.
[quote name='hammybee']
Anyway, I want to thank you for creating and maintaining the site, that is now a sticky on this board. [/quote]

Thanks for the kind words.

[quote name='hammybee']
Just wanted to make sure that no one thought this information was the final word on any of these groups and would recognise that your time and effort is completely voluntary, based upon information you receive or gleam.

Some of the group web sites really hype their group cruises and make it sound like the event of the year. Some times it is, and sometimes not.

There are a few relatively significant group travel companies that are facing serious financial troubles, right now. They tend to charter entire ships as opposed to booking a large group and when they can't fill the ships, they have had to eat it. The business continues to evolve.

Thanks again for the good work you do.[/quote]



Rich

[mugwump]

[quote name='appletx']The large group on the 6/30 Oosterdam stated on their website that they had reserved 50% of the ship and they also state that their cruise is sold out now. However, from the activities they list, it does not appear that they have reserved any of the public spaces during public use hours.[/quote]

I'll be on the 6/30 Oosterdam cruise as well. In a previous thread a poster in the know stated that the group size is actually 225 and not the 800+ as advertised on the website. I can confirm that the large group on that sailing does number in the low 200s which is a huge difference and makes them just another bunch of happy cruisers and not the intimidating behemoth that we at first feared.

[appletx]

Yes, 200 is a huge difference from the numbers their group posted. I would guess that a group that size would hardly be noticed.

[hammybee]

[quote name='peaches from georgia'] HAL/Seattle is trying to pretend this closing of a popular public room for PW was a big surprise to them and we know it has been going on for at least 3 yrs and I'm sure a lot longer. Everyone understands the contribution of large groups to the bottom line and the risks of mass-market cruising. You keep repeating that ad nauseum. It has nothing to do with the post put up today here and on the PW thread. I don't remember Sails saying she had had this experience, but maybe she will come on here or on the PW thread and tell us more about it. Regardless, it happened and the fact HAL does this is no surprise to anyone in Seattle. That was the only point.[/QUOTE]

Peaches, I am a broken record. It's a part of my charming personality :)

I have read the same posts as you. I did not get the impression that HAL/ Seattle was surprised. It seemed to me Ms. Binnendyk punted for some time before she returned with a response and a feeble attempt to make light of the situation. I also do not think HAL/Seattle is in denial- how could they be? They created the situation. I think it then up to the onboard crew to deal with it. And as we know, the onboard management and crew do not have the authority to make it right.

The people assigned to handle the masses of mail that HAL or any cruise line receives, probably don't know any more than what someone within the organization tells them. This is common in most corporate cultures.

Nothing is going to change the past. We'll see what happens going forward.

[barbon2]

Group sailings are a concern to me also. As I have stated before, we were on the Oosterdam in December where there was a 600+ card group and the Crow's Next was closed for the cruise. Talk about dress code....the usual get up was jeans and a plaid shirt. I for one, DO NOT want to cruise on a ship with a large group like this again. We are booked on the Noordam for Sept. to Alaska and I have tried to research groups and have found a small bridge players group and a cake group which is also small. My concern is "will the culinary center be closed"? The cake group states that they can only take 130 because that is what the culinary center holds. I think it would be unfair to sail again on a cruise and find that the culinary center is closed for public demos which we enjoy because of a group. As other posters have stated, I have nothing against groups, and I am sure there have been plenty of small groups on all cruises I have taken, HOWEVER, I want use of the ENTIRE ship which I feel that I pay for when booking a cruise. I also see no problem in re addressing a subject a few years later especially when the subject is current.
Barbara

[hammybee]

[quote name='barbon2']Group sailings are a concern to me also. As I have stated before, we were on the Oosterdam in December where there was a 600+ card group and the Crow's Next was closed for the cruise. Talk about dress code....the usual get up was jeans and a plaid shirt. I for one, DO NOT want to cruise on a ship with a large group like this again. We are booked on the Noordam for Sept. to Alaska and I have tried to research groups and have found a small bridge players group and a cake group which is also small. My concern is "will the culinary center be closed"? Barbara[/QUOTE]

I remember your posts following your cruise, especially the "Closed for Renovation" sign that was put up, when in reality, a group was playing poker or something, in the Crows Nest. I am really surprised to hear that you are sailing with HAL again because I know you were disappointed with your cruise, on several levels.

We sailed on the Noordam in May. I wanted to be a part of the very limited Culinary Class but was told it had been cancelled. Given the class accommodates only about 12 or so passengers, I knew my chances were slim anyway, so I did not give it another thought. The reality was, as I later discovered, that the class had not been cancelled. Instead, it was held for a private group. It made me laugh.

I will tell you the cooking demonstrations were held, as scheduled, and were SRO.

I have no idea what is or is not going to happen on your cruise. If your are waiting for the other shoe to drop, perhaps you might be better off sailing with another cruise line, less apt to have a large group onboard. It seems to me that X has not been nearly as succesful as HAL in securing large group business. Perhaps, this will be a better fit for you.

Despite what some posters feel, I am not a cheerleader for HAL or even a loyalist. I sail almost all mass marketed cruise lines and have never had a bad cruise. I think the best advice I ever received about cruising is to sail the least expensive cabin on the best cruise line, you can afford, cause once you walk out the door of your cabin, it's the same onboard experience and food. I hope your next cruise, on whatever cruise line you choose is better than your last cruise.

[fcorey]

[quote name='hammybee']Despite what some posters feel, I am not a cheerleader for HAL....[/quote]

:eek: no more pom-poms for you :) sorry couldnt resist, if it werent for people like you, Sail, Lisa Laffnvegas, revneal, bepfs and the numerous others here posting, I dont think I would have been able to get Michelle to step foot on another cruise. Our first, our honeymoon cruise, would have been our last. But after reading the good and bad here and all sorts of reviews we decided on HAL. There were other choices that we were considering, Celebrity, Cunard, and Princess, but HAL seemed like a good fit. The thought of groups never entered my mind until I read some postings here. Its also obvious that HAL isnt the only line with this problem, read the other boards and that will become apparent. I think HAL having smaller ships makes it easier to book a charter. We had a small group on our last trip, a medical conference for infectious diseases, you would have never known they were there. But no matter what, I think your attitude is the way to go, its your vacation, why let something small , petty. or stupid ruin it for you.

[hammybee]

Forget what I said about Celebrity being less likely to have a group. Here's a link to a post that talks about Celebrity closing a prime spot on glacier viewing day, in Alaska:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=575009

 

This must really tick off those passengers who practically sleep in the premium viewing areas, the night before glacier viewing day, so that they can stake claim to their window space. If you think chair hogs are bad, they are nothing compared to the dreaded Glacier Viewing Hogs. :)

[Moriah]

I've sailed on HAL three times (Westerdam, Oosterdam, Zuiderdam) and each time it was as part of a large group - we were over 600 people each time - or 1/3 of the pax on each cruise. We had two cocktail parties which closed the Crow's Nest for about 90 minutes each time, and the rest of our meetings were in the Vista Lounge during daytime hours when I doubt anyone else would have any reason or desire to be in there. It never occurred to me until reading this board that anyone was bothered by the presence of our group on any of the cruises. The only comments I heard about us were positive - from the concierges in the Neptune lounge who said they loved when our group sailed because the members were so friendly and happy, to the spa masseuse and waiters who basically said the same thing. Granted I never asked any other passengers for their impressions, but as I said, we never intruded on the public spaces so I think it was a non-issue. Would it be presumptuous of me to believe that the groups that DO intrude are the exception and groups like the one I participate in are the norm? I'm sailing again with the same group on the Noordam next month - we have about 500 people sailing - and I anticipate nothing but great times for every person on board, whether they are with my group or not!

[gizmo]

I find it very interesting that HAL has been closing the Crows Nest to regular passengers for practically entire cruises evidently for many years. All the talk here has been about Park West and the email from Margaret ? at Mariner Society made it sound like closing the Crows was practically a mistake and a one of a kind happening. Not so I guess.

 

I have to agree with this. The responses from Seattle did make it sound like a one time occurrence when in fact it was not. The wording in the responses made it sound like it only happened on 2 days not 10.

 

Many of us have experienced the Crows Nest being closed for a couple of hours in the afternoon for a group function but not closed at night. Harbormaster and Sails both had the experience of the Crows Nest being closed at night.

 

On Sail's cruise not only was the Crows Nest closed but the aft pool was also closed to the the regular pax at 2:00 on sea days. :eek:

[gizmo]

Peaches, I am a broken record. It's a part of my charming personality :)

 

I have read the same posts as you. I did not get the impression that HAL/ Seattle was surprised. It seemed to me Ms. Binnendyk punted for some time before she returned with a response and a feeble attempt to make light of the situation. I also do not think HAL/Seattle is in denial- how could they be? They created the situation. I think it then up to the onboard crew to deal with it. And as we know, the onboard management and crew do not have the authority to make it right.

 

Those in Seattle are like ostriches, they have their heads stuck in the sand.

 

Of course they are in denial. Read some of the responses sent to those who contacted them. "Don't admit the CN was closed most of the day for 10 days, and say the information on CC was wrong. " :rolleyes:

 

The people assigned to handle the masses of mail that HAL or any cruise line receives, probably don't know any more than what someone within the organization tells them. This is common in most corporate cultures.

 

Nothing is going to change the past. We'll see what happens going forward.

.

Because another corporation may have this problem does not make it right, nor is it a valid excuse. It is not common in the company I work for comany.

 

Making excuses for Hal does not make it ok.

[gizmo]

Because another corporation may have this problem does not make it right, nor is it a valid excuse. It is not common in the company I work for comany.

 

.

Sorry about the typo (for comany). :o I meant it is not common in the company I work for.

[Golfette]

Richwmn, I have to hand it to you for your thoroughness and astute thinking in posting and researching the group cruise site. When I started reading here about Polker cruises (yiiiichhh, smoke, cigars etc.), I immediately became panicked (as is my wont) and started checking card player sites. I found a number of them, and all the cruises listed are on your website. Oh what a relief:D ! While we don't know the number of actual cruisers, at least we can possibly avoid those which have groups that sound troublesome. Another thank you for all your hard work:) .

[hammybee]

I'm sailing again with the same group on the Noordam next month - we have about 500 people sailing - and I anticipate nothing but great times for every person on board, whether they are with my group or not!

 

Moriah,

Some passengers have strong preferences about cruising with others who share the same values and behaviors, to the point that if they are confronted with differences, it has the potential to ruin their cruise. There is another CC board, for a different cruise line, that makes this readily apparent, at least for those cruisers who frequent that CC board.

 

The big issue, at least on this board, is closure of certain venues for all or the majority of a cruise. We have been told that this happens about 3X a year for Park West @ Sea VIP guests. We can certainly see that it also happens occasionally, when a large group is accommodated.

 

When this happens, passengers have to discover this for themselves, which really means that the cruise line, any cruise line, forgoes multiple opportunities to be honest about it. They do not tell passengers before the cruise and they do not tell passengers during the cruise. The lack of disclosure is intentional and misleading.

 

A cruise line knows that only a small percentage of passengers will even be aware of, let alone, inconvenienced by a given closure. From the cruise line's perspective, it makes no sense to inform ALL cruisers of something that they may or may not even notice because it opens the door to, what will the cruise line do to make it right. All of a sudden, ALL passengers want some form of compensation, a cruise passenger mantra, if there ever was one.

 

This practice is certainly not new or limited to cruise lines. It permeates the entire hospitality industry. This does not make it right, but it is what it is, at least for now.

 

There are many posters on this board who have taken many, many cruises on HAL and other cruise lines and have never encountered a substantial venue closing and maybe they never will. It does not happen frequently, given the tens of thousands of sailings a year, across all cruise lines. And only a small percentage of groups have the financial muscle to compel a substantial closing, of a key public area.

 

For now, it is a risk of cruising and staying at a resort. There is greater risk of lousy weather than being on a cruise when a significant public space is closed, the majority of time. But it can and sometimes does happen.

[barbon2]

Hammy,

I feel as though I must "defend" my posts here. I did post after our last cruise on the Oosterdam. Yes, we did have the large group and problems with the concierge service in the Neptune. We also had air conditioning problems. HOWEVER, I did state on some posts that yes, we would sail HAL again, I never said that I had a problem with the ships etc. I also posted in a thread how I wrote to HAL customer service and how they addressed my concerns immediately and were more then fair to us. My posts here are only in reply to the subject matter, that yes, we had a group problem, and that I was hoping that on this cruise we are doing in Sept. we hope to have use of all facilities. As I also stated this will be our 4th HAL cruise. Our Amsterdam to Alaska several years ago was wonderful as well as our cruise on the Maasdam to Canada/New England. The only complaint or comment with the latter cruise was that we did not care for a couple of the excursions we selected. We enjoyed our Oosterdam cruise, just stated some of the negatives that we encountered. When we vacation we tend to take suites, on the ships we select, that is how we like to travel. When staying in a suite and paying top dollar, you do expect the promised services from the Neptune or whatever type of suite service is offered. Again, HAL may not be our favorite line, but we booked it again, so I may not be a "cheerleader" as you are, but we still sail HAL. Again, I thought their customer service dept. was wonderful and that is one reason we are sailing the line again. Sometimes it seems when ANYONE posts NEGATIVES to ANY board or ANY line, there are some people who do not want to hear them. I try to post both the positive and negatives, and if you do follow these boards there were a lot of unhappy postings from that particular HAL cruise in Dec.

Barbara

[fcorey]

Sometimes it seems when ANYONE posts NEGATIVES to ANY board or ANY line, there are some people who do not want to hear them. I try to post both the positive and negatives, and if you do follow these boards there were a lot of unhappy postings from that particular HAL cruise in Dec.

 

My 2 cents on this is that the sole reason that CC is a valuable resource is that you get to read both positive and negative comments. While I think some are nitpicking, some are not and the cruise lines are wise to read this feedback because overall its a good barometer on how they are doing. Lets not forget, the poster is entitled to say what they wish. If people just posted positives this site would lose some value. Its at best a great resource for pro's and cons, little details, stories and many things that the more experienced cruisers can share. At worst its a a place to rant and complain (hey I resemble that remark :rolleyes: )

[Golfette]

Moriah, may I ask what type of a group your group is? I am merely curious as to the kind of group that can produce 500 - 600 passengers on a cruise. Your group sounds just fine - you have a great attitude towards the cruise population at large.:)