Casino table minimums?

[lvcruiser]

Your percentages are pretty close. So, when I have 16 I have about a 70% chance of busting thus, I have quit hitting 16, but its been very hard to convince people who have read all those books that say Iam stupid. My blackjack theory, if you dont have cards, you cant win.

Don - Hitting or standing on a 16 is one piece of advice I hate to give because there is about a 50-50 split between the players on how to play the hand. But I'd like to give you the actual odds of the hand so you'll understand a bit more and then be able to make a better informed decision on what to do in the future. First of all, you're not stupid for the way you play; it's your money, do with it what you want. When I play, I don't have a problem if someone doesn't want to hit a 16 against a dealer's pat card as long as they are consistent about not doing it. It's the players who wonder if they should this time or not next time that bother me because the rest of the players on the table have no way of knowing what to count on.

 

If you hit a 16, your chances of busting are 61.5%, not 70% as guessed at earlier. That's easy math to figure: 8/13 = 61.5%. I get that figure from the fact that there are 8 cards out of 13 denominations that will bust the hand and 5 that won't.

 

If you stand on 16, only two things can happen: either you will lose to the dealer or the dealer will bust and you will win. You can't beat the dealer with a 16 and you can't even push with him since he is going to hit to 17 or more. The dealer, on average, busts 28.2% of the time. Depending on what his up card is, when you stand on a 16, you give him an additional 3-14% advantage, with him showing a 7 giving the lowest of 3% and with him showing an ace or 10 giving the highest of 14%. But for simplicity's sake, run with the average of how often a dealer simply busts and you'll realize that if you stand on a 16 against a pat card, the dealer will beat you 71.8% of the time. That's 10.3% more than you'll lose if you hit the hand. Your winning percentage doesn't change that much depending on what you do, but your losing percentage increases 10% if you stand. Over the long haul, 10% is a heck of a lot. Your idea of not being able to win if you don't have cards is a good one, but with a fatal flaw. Rather than look at it that way, I suggest viewing taking a hit as the opposite of rolling over and playing dead, waiting for the dealer to take your money. In other words, if you're going down, do it fighting. That way, you won't wonder what if.

 

I played against a lady a few years ago that had the same theory - she wouldn't take any hit that would bust her, meaning she wouldn't hit a 12 or above. I explained to her how often the dealer busts, but she wouldn't listen. Instead, she was completely puzzled when she lost $400 in less than 40 minutes, playing $10 a hand.

 

I'm not trying to change the way you play and I certainly won't be offended if you disagree with me on playing strategy. I'm just trying to provide you with the facts instead of guesswork so you can make an informed decision.

[DON M.]

Don - Hitting or standing on a 16 is one piece of advice I hate to give because there is about a 50-50 split between the players on how to play the hand. But I'd like to give you the actual odds of the hand so you'll understand a bit more and then be able to make a better informed decision on what to do in the future. First of all, you're not stupid for the way you play; it's your money, do with it what you want. When I play, I don't have a problem if someone doesn't want to hit a 16 against a dealer's pat card as long as they are consistent about not doing it. It's the players who wonder if they should this time or not next time that bother me because the rest of the players on the table have no way of knowing what to count on.

 

If you hit a 16, your chances of busting are 61.5%, not 70% as guessed at earlier. That's easy math to figure: 8/13 = 61.5%. I get that figure from the fact that there are 8 cards out of 13 denominations that will bust the hand and 5 that won't.

 

If you stand on 16, only two things can happen: either you will lose to the dealer or the dealer will bust and you will win. You can't beat the dealer with a 16 and you can't even push with him since he is going to hit to 17 or more. The dealer, on average, busts 28.2% of the time. Depending on what his up card is, when you stand on a 16, you give him an additional 3-14% advantage, with him showing a 7 giving the lowest of 3% and with him showing an ace or 10 giving the highest of 14%. But for simplicity's sake, run with the average of how often a dealer simply busts and you'll realize that if you stand on a 16 against a pat card, the dealer will beat you 71.8% of the time. That's 10.3% more than you'll lose if you hit the hand. Your winning percentage doesn't change that much depending on what you do, but your losing percentage increases 10% if you stand. Over the long haul, 10% is a heck of a lot. Your idea of not being able to win if you don't have cards is a good one, but with a fatal flaw. Rather than look at it that way, I suggest viewing taking a hit as the opposite of rolling over and playing dead, waiting for the dealer to take your money. In other words, if you're going down, do it fighting. That way, you won't wonder what if.

 

I played against a lady a few years ago that had the same theory - she wouldn't take any hit that would bust her, meaning she wouldn't hit a 12 or above. I explained to her how often the dealer busts, but she wouldn't listen. Instead, she was completely puzzled when she lost $400 in less than 40 minutes, playing $10 a hand.

 

I'm not trying to change the way you play and I certainly won't be offended if you disagree with me on playing strategy. I'm just trying to provide you with the facts instead of guesswork so you can make an informed decision.

Thanks for some interesting stats, some of which I knew, some (dealer breaks 28%) I din't. As you probably know, the ave. dealer hand is 18.23, which means when you have 16 an ace or 2 still wont help based on that percentage, leaving the good cards at 3. Your right about being consistent which I have been for about the last 15 years. How is that 28% dealer busting calulated?

As you also know, the biggest house advantage in blackjack is you, the player, have to go first. That would mean that my chances of busting is also 28% , unless of course i hit 16 which is now 61 %-lol.

My sister-in law would love you since she prescribes to you theory while my brother and myself stay on 16 and drive her crazy. I guess my theory is not so much on stats as how much better I have done since changing theories, but then again we can both agree there is that varaible called LUCK.

[lvcruiser]

Don - Computer models are used to calculate basic strategy and all the other statistics that can be derived from the game by going through all the possible combinations of cards that can exist for any particular hand. That's how basic strategy was devised - strictly using the best odds available for any hand. While the dealer busts 28% of the time, the player who plays perfect basic strategy will only bust 15.9% of the time. Why? Because the dealer has to play by set rules and doesn't follow basic strategy. While you can stand on a busting hand - 12-16 - the dealer has to take a hit. That's why they bust more than the players. But that 15.9% also includes busting by hitting 16's, so if you're not hitting your 16's, you'll be busting less. Unfortunately, you'll also be winning less.

 

You're right about the biggest house advantage being the fact that the dealer plays his hand last. You can lose by busting and then the dealer can bust, but you've already lost. That's why even basic strategy can't bring the player even with the house and take away the edge. If it could, the casinos would remove the game. That's why card counters are kicked out of casinos. They, myself being one of them, can actually turn the house advantage around to themselves, meaning that now time is on their side instead of the casino's. You have to figure that every single game in the house is going to have a house edge or else the house wouldn't have it. They have to have a built in profit margin just like any other business or industry or else they wouldn't survive.

 

And yes, 80-90% of the game is luck, no matter how good of a player you are, how well you follow basic strategy, or how good your counting system may be. When I played the game for a living, I won 90% of the time. That's 9 out of every 10 times I played. But I still lost 1 out of 10, and not because I played bad; but because of the luck of the cards. The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that luck is held by the individual. It doesn't matter where you play, who you play with or which table you're playing on - if it's your day to win, you'll win. And if it's not, try to figure that out early.

[kiefaber455]

Ivcruiser, unless I miss read your post, the so called "idiot" who split 2's and 6's did so before your play came up. Correct me if i'm wrong, but in BJ you don't indicate what you plan on doing until it's you turn on the table. If you play the probabilities, seeing that 3 cards valued at 10 each just came up, the odds of a fourth coming up when it's your turn are greatly reduced. Maybe you take a chance once, but not twice. That person, unwise to the basic rules of BJ, didn't lose your money, you did. I love people who blame others when they lose. Would you have given him credited for your winnings if he hadn't split the cards and you walked away a winner?

[danmz]

Does anybody know the house advantage in caribean stud.

[lvcruiser]

kiefaber455 - Your point about blame is well taken. Of course, no one held a gun to my head and made me play or double down on either hand. I had the choice and chance to remove my double down bet and allow the man making the bad play to cost me only half the amount. Do I blame him for losing my money? No, but I blame the poor play on the table, and likewise, would have given credit to the entire table if the hand had been won rather than lost. You can argue the point all you want, but you will never convince me that the game of blackjack is not a team event. If everyone on the table plays properly and consistently, everyone on the table will stand a better chance of winning. When even the dealer and floor supervisor are dumbfounded over the complete idiocy and lack of regard for the other players on the table, you know there is something very wrong. I generally will not say a word to someone playing like that; I will simply get up and go to a different table because they have the right to be as dumb as they want. Being inconsiderate to other players though, is the fastest way to get me to leave a table. This wasn't a case of not knowing what he was doing; it was "I know this is wrong, but I've got a feeling." His feeling cost the entire table, not just himself or me. If you don't mind playing with people like that, I'm happy for you. But it's not for me.

[DON M.]

IVcruiser- As a card counter,if you knew the decks were WAY heavy in 8,9, and face cards, would hitting 16 not go against the purpose of counting?

[Rich And Sylvia]

Each player at the table is playing against the dealer and not against each other. But – and you knew that was coming - since the decisions of each individual player have a direct outcome on the dealers' hand at that moment – these decisions, in-turn, also have an effect on each of the players at the table. It is for this reason, players who fly into the face of what is considered Basic Strategy, may be subjected to narrow looks, under-the-breath comments and even direct confrontation. Make no mistake – it’s your money and you are allowed to play any way you want. However, you will not succeed in this game with any kind of consistency by playing Willy-Nilly - based on your feelings. I agree this far with the heart of this thread and this is where I depart...

 

A common belief at the blackjack table is that a bad player will disrupt the entire order of the game (as if it really has one) and cause everyone to lose when they may have otherwise won. I consider this to be hogwash. It is true that this very player will sometimes make a play that will result in the dealer beating everybody. In the short run such a player is just as likely to be to your advantage than to hurt you and in the long run they will not make any difference. The cards are not in any type of specific order and they are not secretly prearranged to make the dealer lose if everyone at the table would just play a certain way.

[lvcruiser]

Rich and Sylvia - Thanks for helping me make my point. I hope the other posters on this thread realize that my case in point was citing only one example of bad play costing me a large amount of money and not think that I believe it happens all the time.

 

Don - Most counting systems will advise the player to stand on 16 whenever the deck goes plus. The count in which this exception to basic strategy should be invoked will vary between systems. You are absolutely correct in this assumption. However, we are now delving into advanced play of the game that most players have no idea even exists. The system I use has 60 deviations from basic strategy depending upon whether the count is plus or minus and how much. But a counting system cannot be used effectively by a player that does not already know perfect basic strategy and be willing to play it without question under the assumption that statistical data is more accurate than gut feelings. That has to be accepted as truth before any count system will help the player if he or she is going to deviate from basic strategy when the time is right. Please bear in mind that my discussion thus far on this thread is intended for the non-counters. We could also talk about not hitting a 12 against a 2 or 3 when the deck is a strong plus. But most players don't know you're supposed to take that hit to begin with.

[berd0625]

Thanks all for a great and educational thread.

 

Does anyone have any craps advice?

 

I play the passline and a dollar any on the come out roll, and then place the 6 and 8 unless one of them is the point. Then I'll place a 5 or 9. My bankroll doesn't allow me to play more than 2 or 3 x odds, and on the ships they allow for single odds only anyway. Would playing the come line be better?

 

Thanks.

[msolberg]

http://wizardofodds.com/

 

It contains basic strategies and a lot of interesting math. You've probably seen Michael Shackelford on the Travel channel a few times.

 

Mark

[lostinplace]

lvcruiser-

Any advice regarding books or computer programs to help with learning basic strategy? I know there're a lot our there. I've no delusions of winning a fortune, but if I can minimize losses and enjoy myself a while longer, I'll be happy.

 

Thanks.

[screagan]

lvcruiser-

Any advice regarding books or computer programs to help with learning basic strategy? I know there're a lot our there. I've no delusions of winning a fortune, but if I can minimize losses and enjoy myself a while longer, I'll be happy.

 

Thanks.

Print out a chart from http://www.blackjackInfo.com and memorize it; you can also practice with the flash game found there. Then you should go to: http://www.blackjack-school.com/indexa.shtml .

[stretch]

STRETCH- I read somewhere that you were seen SPLITING KINGS and was thrown over-board.

Actually, I have done exactly that, splitting kings that is, but it was not on a cruise ship, but a land based casino. The game was all cards face up, including the dealer's, he had a 15, and I had two kings. I had not been doing particularly well and figured to shake up things a bit. Ended up with another face card and an eight, and the dealer went bust. BTW, I was the only player at the table at the time, and ended up ahead for the night.

Stretch

[lvcruiser]

Thanks all for a great and educational thread.

 

Does anyone have any craps advice?

 

I play the passline and a dollar any on the come out roll, and then place the 6 and 8 unless one of them is the point. Then I'll place a 5 or 9. My bankroll doesn't allow me to play more than 2 or 3 x odds, and on the ships they allow for single odds only anyway. Would playing the come line be better?

 

Thanks.

The only advice I give on the game of craps is: if you want to leave the table with a little money, bring a lot with you.

 

Playing the pass line and insuring it with a $1 craps bet isn't a bad idea, although you probably already know that in most instances, the craps bet will be a loser. Just make sure the craps bet is sufficient to cover the pass line bet or else it will really be a wasted bet. Place betting the six and eight is usually the safest bets on the table, giving the house only a slightly higher edge over making come bets with odds. Obviously, when you place the 5 or 9, your odds of hitting go down, but the payoff goes up. If you want to play even more conservatively, whenever the point is 6 or 8, simply place bet the other. Unless you want three bets on the table at all times.

 

The problem with craps, like all other games in the casino except blackjack, is the negative expectation the player has on every roll of the dice. That's why I stick to blackjack. But if you enjoy craps, then that's the game for you.

[lvcruiser]

lvcruiser-

Any advice regarding books or computer programs to help with learning basic strategy? I know there're a lot our there. I've no delusions of winning a fortune, but if I can minimize losses and enjoy myself a while longer, I'll be happy.

 

Thanks.

You're right - everyone and his brother are writing books about the subject nowadays. The one that's best for you will depend on how deeply you want to get into the game and if you're interested in learning how to count, it will depend on how good of mind for math that you have. There are as many counting systems as there are books, but the one that I have found to be the most efficient, accurate and easy to understand is "Blackjack for Blood," written under the pen name of Bryce Carlson. You have to have a decent mind for math and a good memory in order to use it, but it isn't as complicated as some of the level four systems out there. And for basic strategy, it contains the best computer models I have ever seen, taking into consideration deviations of house rules and number of decks as good or better than any other book on the market to my knowledge.

 

Bear in mind that if you print out a chart from any website or buy one of the basic strategy flash cards from the gift shops in Vegas, you will have to make sure it is the same basic strategy you will need to play on any particular table. There are deviations to basic strategy depending upon the number of decks used, with essentially three different models: single deck, double deck and multi-deck, meaning four decks or more. Make sure you have the right one. If you play with the wrong one, it won't hurt you much if you're playing time is limited, but over the long haul, it will make a difference.

 

The Wizard of Odds is the most comprehensive website I have seen created for gambling. Bear in mind, however, that I have found some of his statistical percentages to be wrong on my one and only visit to the site a couple of years ago. I should go back and see if they have been changed before making any negative statements. Regardless, it is a very interesting site if you're curious about gambling and want more information about virtually any casino game.

 

Stretch - where were you playing double exposure? That's been recognized to be such a gimic game that only one casino in Vegas still offers it. And believe it or not, there is actually a time when splitting tens is appropriate, but you have to be a counter to know when, and the chances of the right time occurring are so slim, if you played every day, you might get the opportunity to do it two or three times a year. I don't even like talking about it in an open forum because it might give a novice the wrong idea.

[stretch]

Stretch - where were you playing double exposure? That's been recognized to be such a gimic game that only one casino in Vegas still offers it. And believe it or not, there is actually a time when splitting tens is appropriate, but you have to be a counter to know when, and the chances of the right time occurring are so slim, if you played every day, you might get the opportunity to do it two or three times a year. I don't even like talking about it in an open forum because it might give a novice the wrong idea.

It was at a casino in Tunica, several years ago. Bally's I think. They also had tables using only one deck of cards and all players had a face down card.

I would never, split face cards with other players at the table, but seamed like the right thing to do at the time, considering how my luck was running. Heck, I've been known to hit on an 18 if the dealer has a face card showing, but not as a general rule and not on a consistant basis. I generally play conservative, very close to house rules.

Stretch

[DON M.]

It was at a casino in Tunica, several years ago. Bally's I think. They also had tables using only one deck of cards and all players had a face down card.

I would never, split face cards with other players at the table, but seamed like the right thing to do at the time, considering how my luck was running. Heck, I've been known to hit on an 18 if the dealer has a face card showing, but not as a general rule and not on a consistant basis. I generally play conservative, very close to house rules.

Stretch

In my 40 years of playing, ive seen it all, doubling on 12, staying with ace-2 etc.But, i have NEVER seen anyone hit 18. Stretch, are you sure you were playing blackjack?

[stretch]

In my 40 years of playing, ive seen it all, doubling on 12, staying with ace-2 etc.But, i have NEVER seen anyone hit 18. Stretch, are you sure you were playing blackjack?

Yup, it was blackjack. The last shoe on the last night of the cruise a couple of years ago. I was a little bit up for the week and I and another guy were the only ones left playing. We decided to throw out the rules and play "stupid blackjack" for the last shoe. (I drew a two BTW). All in all, we came out ahead. The dealer thought both of us were nuts, we laughed till we almost cried watching his face. There are very few times I deviate from the basic strategy, that was just one of them.

Stretch

[lvcruiser]

In my years of dealing and playing, I have seen people hit a hard 18 three times, myself being one of the idiots while being distracted by a cocktail waitress. Got lucky and caught a three. But that was an accident and I was in a no lose situation since the dealer misread my hand signal to the waitress and thought I wanted a hit. I've also seen people double down on blackjacks, stand on anything three or above, split fives, which is worse than splitting tens, and split any pair of cards as though it is gospel every chance they get no matter what the dealer is showing. One of my favorite memories of the game happened two years ago on Christmas day. On a full table of players, the guy in the fifth of six spots decided to split tens. Everyone on the table told him not to do it. I told him not to do it. He did it anyway. Why? Because he could. He took cards that would have busted me and I wound up making a 21 and cleaning the table. Now everyone is upset even more at the guy, but he doesn't care. But I was able to get him back for the table's sake. On the very next hand, I gave him a blackjack. I played out the hand to each player until I got around to him, pointed at the cards he had laid down in front of his bet, and asked him if he wanted to double down on the eleven. He looked at me and said, "What? Do you think I'm stupid?" I shrugged my shoulders and said, "Hey, you're the one who split tens. I figured I'd better ask." The entire table erupted so loud with laughter the pit boss came over to see what was going on.

[DON M.]

In my years of dealing and playing, I have seen people hit a hard 18 three times, myself being one of the idiots while being distracted by a cocktail waitress. Got lucky and caught a three. But that was an accident and I was in a no lose situation since the dealer misread my hand signal to the waitress and thought I wanted a hit. I've also seen people double down on blackjacks, stand on anything three or above, split fives, which is worse than splitting tens, and split any pair of cards as though it is gospel every chance they get no matter what the dealer is showing. One of my favorite memories of the game happened two years ago on Christmas day. On a full table of players, the guy in the fifth of six spots decided to split tens. Everyone on the table told him not to do it. I told him not to do it. He did it anyway. Why? Because he could. He took cards that would have busted me and I wound up making a 21 and cleaning the table. Now everyone is upset even more at the guy, but he doesn't care. But I was able to get him back for the table's sake. On the very next hand, I gave him a blackjack. I played out the hand to each player until I got around to him, pointed at the cards he had laid down in front of his bet, and asked him if he wanted to double down on the eleven. He looked at me and said, "What? Do you think I'm stupid?" I shrugged my shoulders and said, "Hey, you're the one who split tens. I figured I'd better ask." The entire table erupted so loud with laughter the pit boss came over to see what was going on.

An absolutely hilarious story. Where did you used to deal?

Iam sure you have stories that could fill a book. What's funny, is I have had some of my best winning sessions while playing with "dummies". Shows what luck can do sometimes.

[lvcruiser]

An absolutely hilarious story. Where did you used to deal?

Iam sure you have stories that could fill a book. What's funny, is I have had some of my best winning sessions while playing with "dummies". Shows what luck can do sometimes.

Don - I'm still at The Orleans, where that story took place. I'm planning on retiring back to St. Louis where I was raised next year if all goes as planned. Although, retirement may be a misnomer since I'm a workaholic. I'll probably find a part time dealing job on one of the boats there.

 

If you think that story was funny, I'll tell you one more and then stop. This is my favorite of all time, and if it hadn't happened on my table, I probably wouldn't believe it. I call it the epitome of dumb blonde.

 

A very attractive young lady was sitting in the middle of one of my tables about six years ago, surrounded by two young, virile looking men who were obviously competing for her attention. During play, I gave her a blackjack and when I got around to her, I asked the same question as before, do you want to double down on the 11, since it is a running joke on my tables. Being a novice to the game, she threw down a second bet. I then had to explain to her that I was only joking and to please pick the second bet back up so I could pay her. She still wasn't quite sure of what was happening, but picked up her bet and thanked me for the payment.

 

On the very next hand, the man sitting to her left threw over a pair of 8's and asked me if he should split them. I told him it is a general rule of thumb to always split aces and 8's. The blonde girl looked up at the ceiling. It was obvious that she was thinking. And then she said, "Aces and 8's.... Aces and 8's. Well, that's easy to remember - they both start with "A". Both men on either side of her, at the exact same moment, called for cocktails.

[DON M.]

Don - I'm still at The Orleans, where that story took place. I'm planning on retiring back to St. Louis where I was raised next year if all goes as planned. Although, retirement may be a misnomer since I'm a workaholic. I'll probably find a part time dealing job on one of the boats there.

 

If you think that story was funny, I'll tell you one more and then stop. This is my favorite of all time, and if it hadn't happened on my table, I probably wouldn't believe it. I call it the epitome of dumb blonde.

 

A very attractive young lady was sitting in the middle of one of my tables about six years ago, surrounded by two young, virile looking men who were obviously competing for her attention. During play, I gave her a blackjack and when I got around to her, I asked the same question as before, do you want to double down on the 11, since it is a running joke on my tables. Being a novice to the game, she threw down a second bet. I then had to explain to her that I was only joking and to please pick the second bet back up so I could pay her. She still wasn't quite sure of what was happening, but picked up her bet and thanked me for the payment.

 

On the very next hand, the man sitting to her left threw over a pair of 8's and asked me if he should split them. I told him it is a general rule of thumb to always split aces and 8's. The blonde girl looked up at the ceiling. It was obvious that she was thinking. And then she said, "Aces and 8's.... Aces and 8's. Well, that's easy to remember - they both start with "A". Both men on either side of her, at the exact same moment, called for cocktails.

Please, Please, more stories. I was born and raised in K.C., graduated from Uni. of Mo. Vegas to St. Loius for retirement, now thats a switch.

Question: At the Indian casinos in Palm Springs where I play, they are using the continous shufflers where the cards are put back in with no stoppage of play. Any advantages or disadvantages to this?

[stretch]

Great story LV!

 

Stretch

[GiniB]

A few weeks ago on the Majesty, we were told by the dealer that their blackjack table minimums were $10 "always." Only played a few times, so I don't know if that was true. Don't know how many decks were in play, but when the shuffler broke down and the dealer opened it, there were at least 8 decks in there.

 

They also had a single deck table available, but the minimum for that table was $25.

 

I'll also be on the Empress in January, so I hope they occasionally have $5 tables too.