jan-n-john

On the subject of formality, along with most everybody I've certainly noticed a marked drop.  I had already reached the point where all I bring along any more is a blue blazer (usually worn with khakis), and I did bring it along on our most recent trip (Edge) but it never left the closet, even though we ate in two of the MDRs and several specialties.  The same was mostly true on a recent Regent cruise (Baltic).  In general, jackets and certainly ties are getting really scarce.   So it appears the era of formality is on its last legs if it isn't already dead.

5 hours ago, DYKWIA said:

 

I'm not a marketing or branding expert, so those of you who are will know better,  but it seems a strange idea to target a different demographic within a single brand, particularly when you've got several brands. Doesn't this risk causing confusion with your target customers if people book a brand they are familiar with, having cruised with them before, and then get a different experience.  There is a risk people become confused about what the brand stands for.

 

 

You raise an excellent point. I'm not a branding expert either, so take this FWIW. 

The way I see it, every brand out there, whether it's cruises or toothpaste or anything in between, to maintain its market position, has to move with the changing preferences and expectations of the underlying market base, or eventually succumb to its competitors who give the buyers what they are looking for as market preferences evolve.  For consumer goods this is fairly easy. I recall when there was a single type of toothpaste or cheese cracker or anything else for each brand. Now, there must be 50 variations of, say, Cheez-its snack crackers.  If you still like the original best you can get it, but if you're adventurous and into spicy or healthy or whatever you can get your Cheez-its in some combination of extra large, toasty, jalapeno, with grooves, whole wheat, or a bunch of other things. This is generally true for just about any consumer good you can think of.  To survive long term cruise companies need to move with the market as well, but it's more challenging for them. 

When you build a new ship things are pretty much set in stone for 20 or more years (significant changes are costly), so you need to guess what the market preferences are going to be for a while into the future, and you need to be able to appeal to a variety of different preferences now, and in the future, with the same ship.  But some things seem clear -- younger people today, compared with their elders, on average (and there are always exceptions) are into more diversity, eschew formality, and are more aggressive in seeking out new experiences, notably including culinary and entertainment experiences.  To be successful over its lifetime, a ship built today has to take account of this evolution over the future.  I see Edge as Celebrity's response to these realities.  It was designed to appeal to the younger crowd, which over time will of course become older but will retain many of the preferences formed already.  So the ship was not intended to appeal primarily to what I call the tux and beef wellington ("traditional") cruise crowd, but rather the allbirds and pho ("up and coming") cruise crowd, and that probably accounts for a good deal of the criticism here, heavily populated as it is by experienced and more traditional cruisers, and that's OK.  

Celebrity, a single brand, can continue to serve both groups.  Edge for one, Solstice for another. Compared with consumer goods companies, cruise companies may have an advantage in the role of experienced travel agents in cruise purchasing. Keeping in mind that there are always exceptions, I would not be surprised if it is the case that Celebrity marketing reps, in their visits with agents, emphasize that they should probably steer the young swinger crowd toward Edge and the older more traditional crowd toward S ships, and everybody will be happy and come back.  Just a thought.

Gosh yes, I am one of those provincial Americans.  You caught me.  Even tho I have lived (not visited, lived) in Switzerland, Chile, and Singapore, and visited probably 50 or so countries (real visits, not cruise stops), I never once noticed there are American fast food places anywhere except right here in the good ol' US of A.   I'm so grateful you pointed it out!   

I "admit" food is subjective?  Of course it's subjective.  Nevertheless, a reasonable person can accurately convey to another reasonable person that A is better than B.  Sadly, not everyone is reasonable.  Try it; it helps one's outlook on life. This may come as a shock, but even tho not all things can be quantified, that doesn't mean they are all the same.

As to culinary differences on the Edge, Edge has 8 (not a typo) specialty restaurants/eating places that are unique to it -- they don't appear on any other Celebrity ship.  There is also a ninth one (Petit Chef) which is being rolled out to the rest of the fleet, so OK, not unique.  Murano and Tuscan Grille have been eliminated, along with a few lesser others such as Lawn Club.  On top of that, Edge also has a new MDR setup, with four "main" restaurants in place of one on the other ships, each having a slightly different theme and menu variations.  There are also some new twists in Oceanview.  So we're up to maybe (objective count) 13 different dining experiences on Edge compared with the rest of the fleet. But if you wish to claim that the food is the same on this ship, that's your privilege. 

I'll say it one last time and then I'm done with this discussion which has turned boring.  I'm a foodie (tho I don't care for the word).  Good dining is the main thing I look for when cruising or traveling in any manner.  In my opinion, based on a recent trip on Edge, food on the Edge is more interesting and better than I have experienced over many trips on the rest of the fleet dining in practically every venue.  If you don't agree, good for you.

Oh, and thank you for your concern but I will remain perfectly happy not joining the exalted ones in the suites.  I sail Regent or Crystal, not Celebrity, when I'm looking for an upscale luxury experience.  And BTW the food is definitely better on those.

Thanks for that.  Very useful information.  It appears SH/Qsine as we know them are toast and will be replaced fully by Le Petit Chef.  Grand Bistro and something called Qsine (the new Qsine???) are mixed in to LPC.  We recently sailed on Edge and did dine at LPC, which is the evening incarnation of Grand Bistro.  I didn't even notice that some sort of new "Qsine" was mixed in there as well, so I'm stumped as to just what that is or how it relates to the old Qsine if at all.  Have to do some further checking.

I'll add that my reaction to LPC is similar to others.  It's cute one time, maybe even a second time on a future trip, but it's hard for me to see how most folks will be interested in going there more than that.  The menu is basically fixed (since for it to fully work you have to be having the same dishes as "prepared" by the animated characters ).  There are very limited alternatives  essentially only for those with particular food allergies and so on.  So we'll see what the future holds for LPC.  Of course over time they could change the animation to have new dishes, but even so the concept would seem to age rather quickly.  I find it odd that Celebrity has gone head first so deeply into it.

Returning to the OP, yes it looks like it's LPC or bust.  No SH.

2 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

You can order whatever you want, including half portions. For a group of 4, we ordered every item on the menu except for maybe 2-3 dishes. The half portions were still plenty for every to have a taste and definitely not go away hungry. 

 

With that said, all signs point to Silk Harvest being eliminated during the dry dock in May so I doubt you will be dining there. 

Is there any info on what will replace it?  Usually every ship has either Qsine or SH.  Qsine is way better in my book so if that's what they do it would be an improvement in my book.

I would say, best recollection, you can pretty much order whatever you want in whatever order you want.  That said, if you really like and know quality Asian food, you may find SH to be not so interesting (I know there isn't much Asian in Palm Coast -- I winter in Flagler Beach which is where I am now; if I've missed something, let me know).  Personally, I'm very much into any and all  Asian and no longer even consider going to SH. It's a very poor representation of Asian food.  Sushi on Five is actually much better.  Hint: if you wait until on board and negotiate a little you will probably be able to dine at any of the Specialties for a discount.  Even SonF, which has an a la carte menu, sometimes offers a very attractive AYCE deal for cheap if you ask, even tho they say they don't.

3 hours ago, Mynki said:

Logic and facts? Interesting. Most people believe food is subjective. Are they all wrong? 

Are you sure the Luminae and Blu menu are different on Edge? Celebrity are very big on standardisation after all. 

Food is certainly subjective.  If for you that means Burger King is the equal of Per Se (or insert the British equivalents), that's fine.  Most people are capable of grasping the difference.

Luminae and Blu are available to only a small proportion of those on the ship, and thus are not really relevant to the broader discussion, unless you insist of course.  They probably haven't changed, but either way it doesn't change the basic point.  We used to go Aqua but gave it up long ago because Blu, the footstool, etc. didn't justify the price difference for us; in fact, Blu to me is probably the most boring restaurant of all time, with the traditional  MDR close behind.  JMHO.  We've never sprung for a suite and unless my portfolio takes a sudden huge upward leap probably never will, so I can't comment on Luminae.  Have to leave that for others more exalted.  

2 hours ago, BeeMinor said:

 

Silversea is using IVs on the ship it is currently building for Galapagos sailings. The overall ship appears to be heavily modeled on the Celebrity Flora, which also has IVs.

It's essentially the same ship, built in the same yard.  It was originally going to be assigned to Celebrity but for whatever reason RCL decided to assign it to Silversea.  Stay tuned.

2 hours ago, Oville said:

All the main dining rooms, Blu and Luminae are the same as other ships.  The difference is in the 4 MDRs there are regional specialty dishes that do not change each day.  For example, Normandie has additional French choices, Cyprus has Mediterranean options.

In addition, there are significant changes in the Specialties.  For one, Murano is gone, I guess you could say "replaced" by Eden.  Without too much exaggeration, there could hardly be two restaurants more different from each other than those two, and by the way that change perfectly encapsulates how Edge is designed to appeal to a younger crowd.  Downplay of fancy waiters and tableside preparations.  Grand Bistro/Little Chef is basically new.  Raw on Five is an extension of Sushi on Five but has different items.  Martini Bar has been tamed and has a totally different vibe. BBQ is being offered on Deck 15. And the offerings in Oceanview are different, with more fresh items, a more extensive breakfast selection (tho without much daily change), and more emphasis on grilled items, in short, a twist toward more healthy eating, or at least what many view as that. And I like the wash stations at the entrance, tho I was one of the few users -- if there is a Noro breakout, you can bet use of that area won't be optional, at least I hope not.

7 minutes ago, Mynki said:

What makes the apples in the buffet on Edge better than the apples in the buffet on Equinox then? 

That's not what I said.  What I said was that while the apples may be the same, or not,  that tells you nothing about the quality of food on the ship.  The Edge's food is better, in my observation, because the menus are better and more up to date, and perhaps Miami is specifying better quality ingredients and choosing better-qualified personnel, but even if they aren't the new and more up-to-date menus alone make the food better on Edge. 

It's not rocket science.  It's logic, combined with facts.

Just now, Mynki said:

lol  I've not missed the point, but you clearly have. The quality is the same whether M, S or E class if sailing out of South Florida. That's it. An apple in the buffet on Edge, Equinox or Infinity came from the same supplier. Trust me it won't taste any different no matter how much people want it too. 

It's not rocket science. 😉 

Sorry but if you think that apples being the same (they aren't necessarily) means all the food that lands on your plate on every ship is therefore the same quality then you are sadly misinformed.  The food on Edge is very different from the other ships, and better.

12 minutes ago, Cruise Junky said:

 

Have you seen what's been happening to prices after final payment?  What was the hottest ticket in town, the Maiden Transatlantic?  The Repo from London to the Med? a fraction of what they were. Kids Sail Free, 4 Perks, free cruise to casino players... not sure they expected to have to do  that. They're trying hard to keep the pricing high before final payment by throwing every perk in the book at her.

I've occasionally checked the movements of pricing on the web sites that have such information, and haven't noticed anything remarkable, but I haven't made a study of it.  In any case, whatever yield management does to improve yields is fine with me.  Perks are hardly new. And as I noted earlier, keeping rates high and accepting a few empty cabins can certainly be the best strategy, ie maximize revenue.

7 minutes ago, Mynki said:

See I've had a head chef advise that all menus and all suppliers are determined by Miami head office and that they have very little chance to create their own menus on board. The only exceptions being the buffet and one of the three crew restaurants. Simply ask the head chef during any 'heart of the operation tour' onboard and they'll confirm this. 

So whilst you may have preferred the food on Edge I don't believe the quality will have been any better. 

You're missing the point.  Miami determines what you say they do, but they can have a different determination for different ships.  In particular, menus on Edge are not the same as the other ships, in large part because the restaurants are different.  The whole restaurant set-up is different.  The menu items on Edge are more up-to-date than the rest of the fleet.  And RCL has an obvious interest in people finding the food is really good during these early days, so they can certainly make sure that happens by using higher quality ingredients and various other steps.  It's true that all the food on all the, say, Solstice ships is pretty much the same, and even the M ships, but Edge is a different breed of cat.  

I've had extensive discussions with head chefs on many ships, to the point of being on first-name-basis sometimes.  I extensively discussed the need for better gluten-free and other signage on a transpac four years ago with Chef Green for example, to which he commented that he was going to press for some of those ideas to be implemented.  They have since been implemented.  Connection? I don't know, but it couldn't have hurt. 

4 minutes ago, Cruise Junky said:

No, footstools were an amenity of a Concierge balcony

 

Well gee, thanks. I'm barely 50.  Most young people I know are off renting their Balinese villas with private plunge pools or hotels such as the blue palace in Crete for a fraction of the price of Edge.  A window that half opens isn't going to get their attention.

I doubt they're getting them that cheap.  

There has been much complaining about Edge pricing.  A bit of critical thought would surely suggest that RCL knows what they're doing.  They have a sophisticated yield management department whose job it is to maximize revenue., short and long term.  I don't doubt they are doing just that -- yes I have a lot of RCL stock so thats what I like to see.  Don't forget, if they sell 2500 trips at 2000 each they make a lot more money than 3000 trips at 1000.  They're not a charitable organization.  Nobody is forced to buy, and anybody who does presumably is getting more value than they are spending.  No seller is obligated to give up any more (what economists call) consumer surplus than they have to.  That's life in a private marketplace. 

Just now, Mynki said:

I'm curious as to why you think the food is better on Edge. I would have assumed that Celebrity use exactly the same suppliers for all of their ships sailing out of South Florida at this time of year. Why would Edge be any different? 

The quality of what lands on your plate depends on a lot more than just the identity of the suppliers.  For openers, all big suppliers supply a range of qualities.  For another, the ship can choose different and better ingredients and preparations, and more modern dishes -- I saw no beef wellington or baked alaska, but I did see what I would view as more updated menu items, and that matters.  I imagine it's part of the reason Celebrity introduced the four MDR concept.  Finally, the kitchen staff themselves do have an impact.  I assume Celebrity put the better performers in the newest kitchen.  

I'm not saying the difference was night and day; more like 6 vs. 8 o'clock.

I'm sure that your local two star restaurants buy at least some things from the same supplier(s) as your local greasy spoons and chain places, but the food certainly isn't the same for a host of reasons.

31 minutes ago, hcat said:

Interesting post.. glad you liked EDGE.

We did too. I have many posts on CC and have been cruising  X since Mercury.

 

Please don't  let anyone make this an age thing ,  or write me off so soon!  We have Edge  booked again , as well as  renovated Summit  and  Apex .  Sure hope we'll  be around to enjoy it..

I'm sorry.  Didn't mean to make it seem like an age thing.  That said, while it's not an age thing when looking at individuals, when looking at the totality of the market a business has to go with the average or most typical and that includes the preferences of the average market participant (customer). There are always exceptions, but in the big picture the preferences of typical cruise customers 20 years from now won't be the same as those now, and RCL has to build ships now geared to the future preferences, not those that predominate today.  That is the essential business fact that so many who have posted here, as far as I can see, fail to grasp. Just MHO.  And I promise I'm not "writing you off."  BTW we have a B2B scheduled on Apex next year.

We sailed on Edge in an IV last week.  We are elite and have sailed nearly all the Solstice and Millie ships at one time or another.  The IV is fine -- we enjoyed it, particularly leaving the window open while sleeping, having a breeze and hearing the sounds of the sea below.  Getting rid of the watertight door to the balcony really does make it part of the cabin, and while we have never sailed in an ocean view it seems obvious that being able to have the window open is completely different. To me, complaining about the lack of a footstool is about as serious as complaining about the lack of a cherry on  a cupcake in the buffet.  YMMV.  Anyway, weren't footstools only an Aqua class thing in the first place?  I don't remember.

Other things we liked are that the food is definitely improved compared to every other Celebrity ship we've been on, and at least for our sailing there appeared to be ample space in the restaurants generally and around the pool; I know we weren't full but AFAIK it was close, so it appears the designers have allowed for more seating.  The traffic flow takes some time to get used to, but to me anyway it is definitely more interesting than the older ships.

My general observation is that these ships were designed from the get-go to appeal to folks who will be sailing on them a decade or two or more into the future, i.e. youngsters now.  Their tastes and lifestyles are not the same.  Most of the complaining here seems to be from 5,000+ posting types who have been cruising for 25 years, which means they aren't going to be around much longer, and anyway they always have the option to sail on the older ships if they don't like the new features.  It would be crazy to build a ship that will last for 30 years to suit the typical tastes of folks now in their 70's (which includes me BTW).  To those who don't like Edge, I say get over it.  Don't book it -- it wasn't meant for you.  Fine.  But to say Celebrity/RCL has made some sort of huge basic mistake in this design just simply reflects being out-of-touch with current (and more importantly future) trends and realities among the future customer base. I think they're on the right track, and I think the ships will prove to be very successful.

3 hours ago, villauk said:

Yes, you can book any within the group. I’d just know exactly what you want and which are current perks etc. as the onboard reps aren’t always up-to-date with offers on the other lines.

True except that they aren't yet able to do Silversea.  They told me it's coming, but not there so far.

We did this cruise in 2015 including the B2B to Vancouver.  Concur that Moorea and Bora Bora are tops.  We were also lucky in that the volcano in Hawaii was starting to flow for the first time in years so we got to see actual lava spurting up, from a distance of course.  The most memorable part for us was being diverted in mid-Pacific to pick up a couple of unfortunate US sailors who had gone aground on uninhabited Malden Island.  The second photo shows them seated toward the front of the launch being brought in to the ship. Very embarrassing I imagine for true sailors who probably have little regard for cruise ships. Such is life!  You probably won't have that experience, but it's a great trip nonetheless.

I suspect you will encounter few if any places in any port you visit (in Canada or the US including Alaska) where your standard credit card will not do the job, so you really don't need to worry much about local cash to start with. These days that includes taxi's and tips except perhaps for a hotel maid. Hopefully your credit card does not charge any foreign exchange fees.  I have certain cards that I signed up for simply because they don't charge FE fees, and I think this is a sound practice for anyone who travels internationally.  Your bank ATM card will be fine if you do suddenly need local cash.  These days it seems you're seldom more than a two minute walk from an ATM in any city of the sort that hosts cruise ships.  The ship also has a US$ ATM, if you get a sudden urge to go lose some of your hard-earned wealth in the casino. 

1 hour ago, Baron Barracuda said:

 

We don't bite for less than 50% off,and on longer sailings are usually able to get it.  Also, after dining in specialty have often been approached by hw and offered 50% off to return later in cruise.

Are there discounts on specialty dining available on Edge as yet, and if so how much?  Is there much choice of dining times?  Anyone have any experience to share so far? 

4 hours ago, ecslady said:

 

I know it is a new ship, but why wouldn't the provisions stock be based on what other X ships normally use in a 7 day cruise?   Ships restock all the time and yes it can vary from week to week, but were they expecting a completely different demographic that was going to eat and drink way different than the X normal?  I think X could have done a better job. 

 

The menu setup on Edge appears to me to be a major departure from the past.  Many more dishes due in part to the 4 MDR idea, and much more ambitious and updated choice of dishes (take a look at the menu in Eden) as well as the approach to preparation of traditional offerings.   Photos I have seen suggest an updated approach to just about everything.  So yes this is somewhat uncharted territory and it is reasonable to think they will need some time to see what people are ordering and thus how to provision.

I'd be interested in hearing what folks are finding about flexibility in choice of dining on the Edge, in practice.  We have a trip coming up in a few weeks; we booked fairly late so couldn't get select dining and are wait listed for that.  Part of the reason for making this exploratory trip is to try out as much different dining as possible. 

So if select doesn't come through for us beforehand, what are the chances of getting ourselves moved to select once on board? 

If one is stuck with a particular time and dining room assignment, what are people experiencing about the chances of reserving other MDRs on a day-by-day basis (table for 2, time is flexible)?  Have you been successful just showing up, even if you don't have select dining and thus are at the end of the line? 

Regarding specialty dining, at the moment the only specialty dining package being offered is 6 nites, which isn't appealing for a 7 nite trip.  Are folks finding that other packages or specific reservations are available in the various specialties either on embarkation day or during the trip?  Even better, we have seldom paid full price for any specialty over many Celebrity trips -- has anyone seen any discounts being offered so far on Edge (that may be a bridge too far but thought I'd at least inquire).

Is there a central source for the menus each day (the TV but is it reliable -- hasn't been our experience on other ships) or better yet for the entire cruise on day 1 if one wants? 

Lots of questions.  Thanks in advance for any assistance.

We will be arriving in Sydney (Circular Quay) off the Celebrity Solstice on Friday Jan. 4 at about 7AM.  We are thinking about booking an international flight that is scheduled to depart at 1:30 PM (1330).  That seems to be sufficient time to make the flight, but is that a safe bet?   We will probably leave the ship ASAP but will have bags to pick up on the quay and check at the airport.  Given the bags, I'm sure we would plan to take a taxi.  Any help is appreciated.

AA is being schizophrenic in their approach - seeming to be downgrading the inflight experience domestically, while improving the product on international premium service. I would not worry about service to SCL suffering - no 737MAX on that route.

 

In response to our former AA employee, that race to the bottom isn't universal. DL has been investing in a "better" onboard experience for its main and comfort pax, and while not explicitly charging a premium as AA did with MRTC, they are achieving improved yields and load factors as people are slowly moving to the "better" airline.

 

Not said as a DL cheerleader, just that they are diverging from the philosophies of UA/AA (whose managments have intertwined pasts and experiences).

I'm not currently plugged in to DL's yields, but they must be good, ie fares are high. We have homes in NC and FL. ATL is the closest major airport to us (while in NC) and would be a logical choice. Tomorrow we are driving to Miami to fly to CPH (SAS/UA) and pick up the Saturday trip on Explorer. We chose it because DL out of ATL was way pricier. In Dec we will drive to DC (visit old friends) to pick up a flight to SIN and eventually a cruise out there. Again, made the choice because DL was way pricier out of ATL. In short, DL is charging a lot for their better service if it really is, and while that may mean they are not racing to the bottom as fast as the others, it's still unsustainable in the long run in my opinion (and yes I realize I'm mixing up domestic and international, but I don't fly much any more so only have limited personal data points). So if that's what you want (pay more to get more) go for it while you can, but my prediction is it won't last.