phider

Low price is the main attractive point for Costa & MSC.

However, we found a better price on a better ship so we skip MEC Divina this your. We'll see next year.

Are you sure? Many people seem to choose MSC and Costa because they enjoy the products provided on the ships, as well as other factors, such as their Itineraries. I am not sure that price, in the end, is that large a factor for the majority of the audience (of course it is for some and to a certain barrier for most middle class people). Who want to use their holy vacation days on a crap product? Most people want to use their "hard earned" vacation days on a good experience and good leisure.

Also, MSC and Costa is not cheaper in the end. I have provided information on this, and you have even made the point yourself in a post on this forum back in 2012.

Philip

First you postulate why the results may be flawed. Then you immediately turn around and completely dismiss the very concerns that you yourself raised:

 

 

 

Pretty indicative? Indicate of what? If the sample size is flawed, or if the sample population is unrepresentative, or if the opinion givers are biased, then a poll is invalid. And in this case we have the invalidity trifecta. No one can possibly argue that the teeny sliver of cruisers who bother to take the time to submit a CC review could possibly be construed as a reliable sample from which to draw a conclusion about anything. Ascertaining the quality of the food served on Costa based on the ratings of an infinitesimally small, skewed, non-representative sample of passengers is junk science at its finest and scariest.

I could not have responded better myself. Thank you.

Also, I think it is important to note how Americans react, and how that results in a review and scoring. The thread on the MSC Cruises part of the forum, is a good example - in my opinion - although not representative for all of course:

Look at the choice of wording.

Water and Ice Tea in the Main Dining Rooms

#1:

I sailed on the MSC Musica and my family on the inaugural cruise of the beautiful MSC Preziosa earlier this year. In both ocasions, we all could not believe when we asked for regular iced water or ice tea during our meals at the dining rooms and were informed that we needed to buy bottled water and that iced water is not served.

What a petty way to get extra revenue from your customers.

I'm planing to sail on the MSC Divina in December out of Miami, but will not book until I hear from you if this unpleasant practice is still in place. All the rest was great, but for me this could be a deal breaker.

#2:

We had the same disappointment on our MSC Musica cruise November 2012 RT Venice. We were otherwise pleased, but could not believe we were not even served complimentary ice water. We also feel that this will affect our decision making for future cruises.

I am not trying to hang anyone out here, but this is fact, and it needs to be acknowledged when non-Americans read reviews. MSC Cruises even provides Americans with free daily vouchers for bottled water at the MDR, to complement the difference in culture and norm.

Philip

Just a point about cruisetrail photos of croissants: The "croissants" found on Costa ships just like those in any bar or pastry shop in Italy are Cornetti and have little relationship to French croissants. Cornetti are heavier than crossiants and come with fillings, creme, marmalade, chocolate, and even plain.

That's a good point. Italian cornetto are also a lot softer than croissants, which is a lot more crisp.

Philip

Yes, that is correct for tourism.

 

But on CC we are talking about cruise ships, not countries.

I don't know what you are talking about, but the rest of us are talking about human beings. We are talking about human beings that board cruise ships, and they come from countries (and what follows with it).

It has been addressed many times - never confuse Costa & MSC with Europe.

You may believe that, I don't. So I choose to disagree strongly with you on your rationales. I believe that MSC and Costa produce food that represents the food style of Europe with an Italian twist.

There is nothing "European" to justify lower quality of the product (food - more related to Costa, amenities - more related to MSC) and no-one should accept it as a norm.

Agreed, regarding the statement "There is nothing "European" to justify lower quality of the product".

I have not heard that quality of the product is bad on Costa or MSC from anybody else but you, e.g. that Costa or MSC should produce food based on subpar or low quality of products.

I would like to hear from other people, besides cruisetrail, to support this.

How can you, with any sanity whatsoever, provide a picture of croissants on the left hand side, and put a headline on it that states "Europe"? This seriously amputates any credibility you may have, and shows how little you know about Europe, European countries, their history and diversity in culture.

There are no standards of croissants across countries in Europe, and you can get both good and bad croissants on land (of course!!!).

Regarding the comparison between the two pictures - I believe that they are completely nullified. I cannot see if the croissants on the right are of worse quality than the croissants on the left, as you want us to understand. I cannot see if the croissants on the right is more tasteful than the croissants on the left.

Also, you are not using the same camera and lighting environment, and I cannot see what you are doing with the lighting effects and color distortion - the pictures does not seem to have been taken under the same surrounding conditions.

We can agree that the presentation of the croissants on the pictures you provide, does warrant that the ones on the left looks better and more accommodating - but that is also the point of the comparison you are trying to state, so I cannot use it for anything.

Since you seem to be fond of using this picture (including your salmon picture from HAL), could you provide some more information on where they both where taken, and also, some evidence on the picture on the right. Also, could anyone else provide pictures of croissants from Costa ships, Carolyn maybe? Ill make sure when I go on Deliziosa in November. Thanks.

Being of French heritage myself, I have tasted many oh many croissants that looks accommodating like the ones you are trying to mark as superior on the left which is nothing more than air inside - hence no taste. Is that quality to you?

As a final statement. I don't try to defend either MSC or Costa on this topic. If they deliver subpar products or quality of ingredients or commodities to produce their food on board their cruises, they should hear of it and be rated based on that. But this is not what you are doing - you keep showing your pictures and make a statement, which any sane person that have tried to live on this Earth and in this World and have traveled across the 7 continents, would disregard simply as bogus.

Philip

We're anxious to read all you input on Costa, as we are apprehensive about our scheduled trip on the Mediterranea in January 2015.

 

Please detail what you mean by "quirks" :)

 

Thank you,

Deedee

I think it has been mentioned a couple of times in different posts, both in the Costa and MSC areas on this forum, but to sum it up shortly, my experience is the following (I am from a country in Europe).

Before I list the differences, remember that EU and Europe is not the same - since many Americans don't know this. The European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 28 member states (read independent countries, with their own laws) that are located primarily in Europe. Europe is a continent, and is the second part of Eurasia.

• Culture: Unlike the US, there is no such thing as an European culture or European standard as such. What characterise Europe is that we are ~50 countries and 740 mill. people with many different ways of doing things. With that being said, there are some overall terms that can be said to be a general European way or standard.
  
• Service: The take at service in most countries in Europe is very different from the American way. This does not mean that there are not bad service in European countries as there is in the US. The main general different from most European countries compared to the US, is that we enjoy relaxed, casual and distanced service with a smile and approaching and helpful when you call the attention of a service personnel - we also call this to have an authentic feeling of service. Most Europeans sees the American service approach to be fake, up in your face, very superficial and I personally feel like I am being addressed like a child in many American situations where you are provided with service.
  
• Food: Authentic European food is, also in my own personal experience, very different from the US food, as for example, Italian food served in a US Italian restaurant is US adapted. This means that it can be a surprise for Americans when they witness real Italian cuisine, if they have a tendency to only like food from their home country. Also, European cruise liners seems to make a different mix of different food from countries all around Europe, and as authentic as possible. Costa and MSC is said to serve their dishes and food with an Italian twist.
  
• Languages: Since Europe is so much larger then the US and consists of so many different independent countries, announcements are made in the languages covering the largest countries, this being languages such as German (82 mill. people), French (65 mill. people), Italian (62 mill. people), Spanish (50 mill. people) and English as a neutral language.
  
• Queues: It is very different in Europe how people behaves in queues, there is no red thread on this. Many European countries shares the exact same way of queuing as the US and some don't.
  
• It's in the details: There are so many smaller things to it, that it is too wast a task to list in just a couple of minutes to write this response, but for example. Europeans do not have a custom of drinking that much Ice Tea and Lemonade or having tap water served at the table etc. etc. But this also goes the other way. When I am in the US, I always ask the waiters politely not to bring me any water to the table, as I cant stand smelling to tap water with such a high amount of chlorine.
  

This doesn't mean that the US or the European is right or wrong. It simply means that when Americans come to Europe, they should accept that things are different then from home, as the same things applies to people from Europe when they travel to the US.

It is just so very annoying and very blunt, to read reviews from Americans on an European liner, when most of their dissatisfaction stems from the cultural differences, when they are served as lousy food and bad service instead.

Hope this gave you a little insight.

Philip

There is a list of complaints received by travel agents doing the rounds; one of my favorite was "the taxi drivers in Spain didn't speak English"

On the National Geographics series Cruise Ship Diaries, where you follow the Costa Serena, one of the Staff members was approached by a couple, that complained that there was too many Italians on the ship.

Philip

Have you heard about AIDA?

Isn't it "European"?

Have you heard about bad food on AIDA?

AIDA cater to the german speaking market, not the whole of Europe as MSC and Costa does. Germany is one country in Europe.

It would be terrible if AIDA was not able to hit the spot on food preferences, as it is not European cuisine but German.

Philip

I don't disagree with you that the because the majority of the reviews constituting the Poll are probably written by Americans the Poll is more valid for prospective American cruisers. However, I don't rule out that it is also of some lesser usefulness for non-Americans. The subjectivity of tastes does have some limitations that are valid cross-culturally.

Agreed.

Philip

When confronted with evidence that the British analog of CC reveals similar results they will attempt to distinguish between "northern" Europeans (Brits, etc.) and southern Europeans (Italians,etc.).

 

You will have to sift through an enormous amount of chafe to get a few kernels of wheat. Good luck. Just remember:

1. A cruise is what you make of it and its corollary - a bad cruise is better than no cruise; so grin and bear all shortcomings.

2. If you don't like the food aboard MSC, you don't know real Italian cuisine. If you ask for tap water on certain itineraries and don't get it, don't insist. Drink bottled water despite the fact ship tap water is likely purer than the bottled variety.

3. If you find the service inattentive, it is because that is the European style - get used to it and you will be better served.

4. If staff has answered your inquiry in a surly or other improper manner, it is because you asked them something in a bad way. Remember, you are on an equal footing with the waiters and cabin stewards. Because of that it would be wrong not to be as deferential to all waiters and cabin stewards as they should be to you.

5. If there is a ship rule like dress or other protocol you find inconvenient, don't worry about compliance. Do what you want - it's the Italian way of cruising.

I know what your intention with these points was, but I have to say that I actually find them as valid as you find them invalid. Actually to the account that these should be posted as Sticky posts for any American or Brit in European cruise liner forums, except for maybe point 1, which I do agree is a little too childish to put on the shoulders of a paying customer.

Having worked a great deal of my life in the US and with Americans as well as Brits, I have to say - without any intention to talk down to 250 mill. people - that for Americans that travel outside Canada, North America and South America, they are usually leaving a part of the world that they thought was the only place on Earth.

As said - it is very valid to say that when an American says that they think they are getting crap service, it is simply because they are used to another cultural alignment.

Personally, I do hate the American style of service. I think it is fake as hell, up your face and I feel like I am being spoken to as if I was a child. I much prefer the European way. However, having travelled most of the world, I don't go on a forum on the Internet and post bad reviews about American cruise liners because of that fact.

Oh, and just one more point for the record. I couldn't CARE LESS about MSC or Costa, but I do feel that it warrants a factual comment or two, when these liners are getting the knife, because Americans hate to realize that the world is larger than North America, South America and Canada. I don't say that they might not have had an actual bad experience, but 90% of the reviews I have read is simply because they should have stayed home and chosen an American liner with the American styled service or a cruise line that consistently serves salmon, scrambled eggs and bacon every day 24/7. This also applies to land based vacations.

If a staff or crew is directly rude to me, Ill make sure to tell them immediately and get it dealt with on the spot. That is also an effective way of getting closure on something.

Philip

Do you mean to insinuate that the MSC negative reviews are more numerous than those of any other line because the Americans who author them are not well traveled, unhappy to be surrounded by those who speak different languages and feel anything different is, ipso facto, bad? Is it not equally possible that the service and food is simply worse on MSC than it is on other lines? I think you underestimate the ability of Americans to enjoy cultural differences (on a vacation).

I think you have some really valid points regarding the "universal" comments in your previous post, which is really not cruise related, but a cultural thing. Regarding the reviews. I do however, think that it is valid to say that reviews made by Americans regarding a European cruise liner on an American/English forum, visited mostly by Americans or Brits cannot be accounted for a correct poll or guideline for everyone else.

My point is. Yes, an American or Brit can probably get something out of the polls, but the other ~350 mill. Europeans probably cant, because all the things or the majority of the areas, that get picked off by these reviews and stamping MSC and Costa as bad cruise liners that THEY WOULD NEVER IN THEIR LIFE RETURN TO, is due to that fact alone.

Philip

I have only been on one Costa cruise and we did not like it. Too many smokers, too many loud anouncements in 4 different languages. Food was terrible most of the time. Pizza was aweful. Pizza Hut has better pizza. Shall I go on.................:confused::confused::confused:

I dont see any point in going on. You travel abroad, leave home, and then complain about different languages being spoken around you and announced to cover many nationalities. What did you expect when you traveled to Europe?

Free advice. Next time you travel, dont leave the US and only use American liners with American itineraries.

Philip

Thank you but I am not asking for clarification.

I know how Samsara package works as I "actually cruised" and used Samsara.

My question is if anyone actually paid for Samsara dinner separately?

 

What is wrong in dining options comparison Princess Grand class/Costa?

Why "biased"?

You did not have those options on your Princess cruise or had more on your Costa cruise?

Please be more specific.

Seriously, I give up... lol.

Philip

What?? Asking for facts is "bickering"?

 

I am stating Samsara restaurant is not purchased separately - from my experience and from Costa website at the time of my cruise.

 

Blondie008 states that now it's different.

Basing on what facts?

I am more that happy to update the comparison table if needed.

But facts pease??

 

Old boring mantra about "have you actually cruised.."

Here we go guys!

Share your "actual" experience. Where is it?:)

Samsara Restaurant has always been available for all passengers, although at a surcharge (20 euro), if you don't have a Samsara Suite, according to Costa services.

Anyway, all Samsara services is available to all passengers at a surcharge, whereas, if you have purchased a Samsara cabin, they are all available free of charge, and you have prioritized access to them.

On their website, the following is stated

4 restaurants, including the Club Restaurant and the Samsara Restaurant at an additional charge and by reservation only

11 bars, including a Cigar Lounge and a Coffee & Chocolate Bar

*Lunch and dinner at the Samsara Restaurant are included in the price for Guests in the Samsara Cabins and Suites.

http://www.costacruise.com/B2C/USA/MiniSites/CostaBenessere/samsara/ristorante/samsara_ristorante.htm

Hope this clarifies it for you.

Also, I did see your Princess comparison, but it is so biased that it is unbelievable. What you do is use Princess as a baseline and compare Costa on that. What about using Costa as a baseline and comparing Princess.

Philip

Phil, I think Costa does get a bad rap on these boards. Living in the US, it is my experience that Costa does not discount Western Med - unless it is 30 days or so, or less out from sailing. We booked a Western Med for next Spring, choosing Costa so my Father-In-Law, who resides in Europe can speak any of the three languages he speaks onboard easily - English not being one of them. Trust me, no discounts. I was also very put off by the large volume of negative posts on CC, but as an Englishwoman, I like foreign differences. Heck, I live in America! :) Perhaps many of these negative posts are from Americans and they prefer the more American cruise brand experience? Which is not Costa. Just my two cents. I totally hear you that Costa is not cheap in price. While being owned by Carnival, complete with gaudy design on some vessels, perhaps that is where the similarity ends? I call it being Carnavalized, the Costa Favosa, which we are booked on, has been thoroughly Carnavalized in design terms. Happily and hopefully, not so much in other areas!

Thanks. I completely agree on both your points, e.g. price and preference. It really supports what I have been able to conclude until now.

In terms of price, I guess it really depends on your scope, of whether you see the price differences, that some have said there is. When I am going on vacation, I am not boud by any fixed time period, month or specific place. This means that when I compare prices, I dont care if the cruise is in Med W. or in the Caribbean, or what time of the year it is - I can just make that fit to the best deal I can find. When doing that, I can get on any cruise line for almost the same price - and Costa is not any cheaper than Disney, Royal C. or P&O when I have done some searches on price deals. Where I find that Costa have a real advantage is on the Extra AI Drinks Package - that seems to be very nice, but I have not tried it in real life yet - so I am really looking forward to see both the value of it, and also how you are serviced when you have it.

I have seen some people say that waiters try to directly avoid you when they find out that you have the package - that would be horrid and really cut down on a good experince. But why on earth would a liner introduce it if that was the effect on the customer? - I really dont want to feel like I am a cheap skate just because i choose to pay 500 euro up front to have the convinence of having drinks included during my stay. Its a good value, but its not free... 500 euro is 500 euro.

Regarding the Americans. Your rationale feels sound... I mean, why would you go on an Italian cruise, in Europe, with a multiplude of nationalities, if you get annoyed by multiple announcements in many languages? If you want to to be like home, maybe it would make sense to stay home. Also, the food thing is a really hard thing to get around in my oppinion, because I cannot see what people are basing their review claims on. I have seen really good reviews of food from Costa ships (and I am not including NeoR), and some really bad ones - but the bad ones seem to complain that the food is outright inedible - seriously?

Philip

normally, i like a little extra on the backside, but this is ridiculous:

How many passengers does that ship hold? It seems huge.

Agreed - it is a very parculiar ship design indeed. It will probably take some getting used to before you see its beauty!

The Costa Deliziosa which is going to be my first cruise in many years, seemed to fit well into my perception, although I also like the Royal C. ships - they seem very nice. I will probably go for one of those after my Costa trip this November.

Philip

Personal remarks never make sense.

I am sorry if you perceived my response as a remark towards your person, that was not my intention. For that I appologise.

My response was only related to what you have written and how you have chosen to state your response. I simply wanted to give you feedback on how that came across.

Ofcourse I dont mind that I might not agree with your oppinion, but the issue is that you have not provided me with any answer to my question, that feels balanced, and thus voids any faith in your arguments.

I genuinely would like to have some valid, balanced and non-biased reponses to my question relating to both prices and food quality, and maybe other aspects surrounding Costa, and some people have given some very nice responses, which I can use to make a probable idea of what I can expect.

I just cant use "Costa's food is so much under cruise line standard" that it is perceived as almost dog food, to make any conclusion. It's a null way to come across with an argument, and it leaves me left with the same observation I entered the thread with - that it does not sound balanced, and I would like to hear other peoples oppinion about it.

The point in a nutshell is - you respond to the questions in a way that was the first reason for me to ask the questions in the first place. It was not substanciated with anything that seemed plausible.

Again - sorry if you feel that my response was an attack on your person, and not the post you wrote and how you wrote it.

Philip

Design is all about the ship and amenities (some people confuse it with decor :D).

I agree with you - retirement cruising is not vacation cruising.

I love Paris too but that is for a different forum.

Some ships by design can offer only a part of cruise life.

If it's the part that you are looking for - go for it.

Enjoy your cruise.

 

Classy cruise ships that offer things unique for sea travel.

I really have to ask this. How come you come across, as if your personal oppinion regarding a specific topic, is truth and fact, and not in fact your view, taste and personal bias which suits your attributes?

Your way of writing is really turning me off, but I can see past that, but your statements in terms of perception is really annoying me - basically because you may scare someone off from a good cruise, because they dont observe that fact, and I think that would be a real shame - for them.

Even if you where technically correct, and had a Ph.D. in Crusing, maybe those technically correct facts isnt important to cruisers of all types.

Your arrogance is really getting annoying, and I really think it would be a real life shame if your oppinion, which you have the tendency to portray as the only truth there is, happens to make someone miss a cruise that they would truely enjoy.

It would be appreciative, if you could turn down a little bit, and be more objective and state when you are subjective, and what your subjective direction is based on - not just vague oppinions as if they where fact.

Hope I make sense to you.

Philip

Ooooh:D sorry

Being Scottish :o

Small ship...:)

Ahh. Thanks.

Philip

Well, to me, it looks like you sir are trying to convince yourself that Costa is not "cheap". But if you feel Costa is good for you, go for it. You will have a good time. You do not have to bring up 6-month data to support your decision.

Based on what background? I am simply replying to the fact that my own experience is, that I don't see the price differences that some people are talking about on some of these forums - and I am trying to support it with facts.

I don't really have any feelings about it, and I don't have any reason to try and convince myself of anything.

Being a first time cruiser for ages, I am trying to use these boards to get a picture of fact and fiction, and I am just asking the question and showing my own experience when trying to book a cruise. As said, what I am seeing is that Costa is not cheaper than the other cruise lines - and I am backing this on the fact that when I am trying to look for a best price, I use a 3-6 month period to choose from, and then pick my holiday/vacation using that as part of the equation.

Doing this, I am able to get on a Disney, Royal C., Princess, P&O, Costa and MSC cruise for the same price - isn't that pretty objective? I don't see what that has to do with feelings.

The reason why I commented as I did to cruisetrail's post, is that his reply did not seem fact based, but based on a selection of examples that supported the view I just don't see any evidence to support.

Philip

No kids specials - we were on NeoR June 12, then Magica Sept 12 = chalk and cheese - price per head per day is much higher on neoR - the so called advertised cheaper cabins are never available. Budget per person is higher - food, drinks and service - rather like Azamara is to Celebrity. They really should have re branded her.... whatever - she is a cracking wee ship - superb food - no crowds, very very very few kids - (no big kids club) and fab live music...love this wee ship! <3

Whats a wee ship?

Philip

Just back from NeoRomantica - loved her a year ago - and she has only got better - sublime food, superb staff - Club restaurant HUGE improvement and the buffet lunch was better than Celebrity! HUGE difference between NeoR and Magica - (our in between costa cruise) - NeoRomantica is just 100% superb!!!!

I have heard some state that NeoR has a higher standard than the rest of the Costa fleet for some reason.

Philip

Because of positive posts here got the all-inclusive Costa Fortuna Sept 1st from Copenhagen but can confirm it has changed for the worse.

 

No bottled water only glasses (though at dinner they gave us the bottle from which we took away the leftovers), only draught beer, cans are opened so you can't take them off ship, only house wine at dinner choice is red/white by the glass (poor quality) slow service/understaffing means topups take time, no fresh orange juice and the alternative is the free stuff they serve with breakfast (which is foul chemical stuff, clearly at 4,50 no one was that tempted to pay). Other juices in glass bottles are also excluded. Can't take hot drinks to the room for H&S (you can get round this by lying) instead you have to get room service...which of course isn't included.

 

If you overdose on cocktails its good value (but clearly unless you watch them they put the cheap nonbranded spirits in). Kids version (which you are forced to take as part of the group) is clearly poor value now unless you stuff them with cans of Coke.

 

Scan of current menu and prices attached, apologies for the size but the file size restricts what I can do, clearly anything starred is not available to you.

 

Rather than feeling relaxed I felt the staff were in competition to be hard on the all-inclusive and that I was the lowest class of passenger rather than someone who had paid upfront. I heard a head waiter telling off one of the junior waiters as he thought he had served them some better red wine than he should at dinner (I found the wine headache inducing and no I didn't drink that much of it which indicates to me its cheap).

 

Otherwise a good cruise so I think Costa are shooting themselves in the foot a little by not being clear and changing the definitions of what is and isn't included each year as I think if I had have known I wouldn't have taken the all-inclusve as the wine list at dinner is quite nice so felt a bit constrained/cheated which I would guess is not the impression they want to create .

Sorry, but that is seriously the worst scan I have ever seen - nevermind the file size.

Use this one here instead.

Philip

Extra All Inclusive.pdf

Thanks for the updated menu. one question I have relates to the Hot Chocolate menu. In an earlier attachment, it stated that the hot (and cold?) chocolate range was included in both the adult and children's packages. Do you remember if this is still included? My 5 year old is very excited about the thick hot chocolate menu :-)

This is whats included.

http://www.costacrociere.it/contents/lp_all-inclusive/All-inclusive_premium.pdf

White, Extra Milk, Extra Dark, Light

Philip

200-300 euros may be equal to another cruise on Costa!

 

 

 

 

To me, that seems like youre looking for something to support your case. If you look at a 3 month period, you will see another picture.

This is for a Med W. destination, why Costa and MSC is heavily represented.

Philip

Treat any review that says "Costa's food is inedible" with greaat suspicion. As it happens, I don't like seafood- if I said "the seafood was inedible" how relevant is that for you? How could you judge if I didn't state my preference? cruisetrail is right, you have to separate facts from opinion. Many reviewers act as though their opinons are facts, they most certainly are not.

Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself. For example, I have seen some reviews where foods is being really dished out by the reviewer, and then, without really underlining it, you realize that they are vegetarians.. I mean - why would you not make that 100% clear, when making a review?

Again, what really bugs me, is that people make Costa seem like a discount liner, compared to other liners, such as P&O and Royal C. but it just isn't true - if you go and look at search for 11 day cruises over a 6 months timeframe, you will realize that the prices are similar to

Royal C.

Disney

Princess

P&O

NCL

And in some cases I have seen similar to Cunard.

When I compare prices, I use a +/- of 200-300 euros.

Philip