travelordie

2 hours ago, blag said:

 

 

 

I am just wondering why RCL and Azamara don't just say "From today we no longer require over-70's to provide health form signed by.... "? 

This question is not unique to RCL and Azamara.  It could be asked of all the other CLIA cruise lines which removed from their websites any reference to required medical letters for over-70s in early April.

1 hour ago, Host Grandma Cruising said:

I just looked on the Azamara UK web-site and although there is a statement that says the CLIA lifted the requirements for a doctor’s letter for over 70s, the FAQ still says At this time, the Fit to Travel form for guests 70 years of age and older continues to be part of the health screening and boarding protocol, which must be completed by your physician

 

It is not just on the Azamara UK website.  It is still on my Azamara website as well.  This does not surprise me.  When CLIA lifted the restriction on April 3rd, all other cruise lines except Azamara and the other RCCL subsidiaries lifted them from their websites as well.  RCCL and Azamara apparently failed even to discover that CLIA had lifted the restriction until April 28th.  Therefore, given the glacial speed with which Azamara handles communications, it could be weeks before Azamara corrects the FAQ.

1 hour ago, uktog said:

 

 

 

"We found out that CLIA (Cruise Lines International Association) did actually change this requirement on April 3rd. So a health form is no longer required for those travelers ages 70 plus, nor are there restrictions for those guests with underlying health conditions."

 

What I find interesting here is that all other CLIA cruise lines, with the exception of the RCCL subsidiaries (Azamara, Celebrity and Royal Caribbean) removed  the requirement for a physician's letter for travelers aged 70 or older on April 3rd or shortly thereafter.  It seems that either CLIA failed to inform RCCL or RCCL lost the communication from CLIA.  Either way, the sentence "We found out that CLIA did actually change this requirement on April 3rd. " raises the question of why there was no action whatsoever between April 3rd and April 29th.

Now that RCCL took the first baby step of informing their travel agents that the restriction has been lifted, let's hope that they immediately update the websites as the requirement still appears on the Azamara and Celebrity websites.

16 minutes ago, uktog said:

Agreed, but this thread is about the letter as well so I believe my comments were fully justified.  Until the cruise line understands no UK GP will sign such a blanket document they are not going to get many bookings from that important section of their market.  We might have booked using from future cruise credits rather than flipping to refunds but as there is this condition we know cannot be met, we would not be covered by our insurers for cancellation costs down the line.

I agree completely.  My physician will not sign such a letter nor do I intend to jeopardize my relationship with him by attempting to coerce him to sign it.  I would certainly not sign it if I were in his position.  Fortunately, there are many cruise lines which have not adopted this policy of selective unfairness to those over 70 so if the policy is not reversed by the time my final payment is due, I will simply cancel my Azamara cruise.

1 hour ago, nordski said:

It’s interesting to me how a formerly rather neutral term, “discrimination”, has acquired a very pejorative connotation. 
 

Interesting indeed.  Perhaps we are being overly charitable to the cruise lines by calling it age discrimination. I would be perfectly comfortable with alternatives such as age prejudice or age intolerance or even something more descriptive and less pejorative such as favouritism towards those under 70 years of age.

In any event, I'm sure these lively discussions on this thread will soon end once Azamara, Celebrity and Royal Caribbean realize that seniors with financial resources are abandoning their Azamara, Celebrity and Royal Caribbean cruises and moving on.  Like it or not, wealth is influential.

4 hours ago, excitedofharpenden said:

What a ridiculous statement. We are in the middle of a health crisis. I'm sure there are many of us who are "discriminated" against just now. 

 

Phil 

Fortunately, most frequent cruisers have the financial resources to deal with blatant discrimination by using cruise lines which do not engage in this practice.  I will not cruise with Azamara, Celebrity or Royal Caribbean, now the only cruise lines which state on their websites that all clients 70 or older require a physician's letter.  We have instead planned cruises on Oceania and Viking for 2022.  We have not yet cancelled our upcoming 2021 Azamara cruise but will certainly do so if they continue demanding a physician's letter.

I wonder if Azamara will next add obese individuals to the list of those requiring a physician's letter now that there is evidence from NYC that obese individuals, independent of age,  are at higher risk of dying from COVID-19.

23 minutes ago, Rabo said:

Can you point us somewhere that indicates other CLIA members have lifted the requirement?

Go to the website of any cruise line other than Azamara,  Celebrity and Royal Caribbean and you will no longer find any mention of a physician's letter specifically required for those aged 70 or older.  Many other cruise lines did mention the required letter on their websites in March but it is no longer on their websites.  The fact that it was on their websites before and is no longer on their websites is strong circumstantial evidence that the letter is no longer required except for RCCL subsidiaries Azamara,  Celebrity and Royal Caribbean.

34 minutes ago, suzyluvs2cruise said:

 

Do you have a link to something that says CLIA has removed the requirement? 

I don't have a link.  The requirement was on the CLIA website from mid-March until early April.  It is no longer on the website so it is reasonable infer that it is no longer a requirement.  Also, a large number of cruise lines had the requirement on their website, e.g., NCL, during the last two weeks of March but it no longer appears on the websites of an y cruise lines other than Azamara, Ccelebrity and Royal Caribbean.

47 minutes ago, BBMacLaird said:

This is good news, if true. Let me ask around the office next week to see if any updates are in the works. 🤞

When you ask around the office, you might point out that the required physician's letter for seniors was on the CLIA website during the last two weeks of March but inexplicably disappeared in early April.  Since then all CLIA cruise lines except Azamara, Celebrity and Royal Caribbean removed the requirement of a physician's letter for seniors from their own websites.

54 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

The CLIA and its member cruise lines rely on the advice and expertise of the CDC, which assesses moderate to severe asthma as one of the underlying medical conditions for people who are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19. While the preliminary information reported by the New York Times might suggest otherwise, this single-source data needs to be analyzed in conjunction with data obtained from multiple sources before the CDC is likely to change its current assessment.

I totally agree and that's why I used the word preliminary in describing the initial conclusions.  

26 minutes ago, yorky said:

I’m 58 and have had mild Asthma more or less all of my life. I’m fit, don’t own a car, and cycle everywhere including to work and back. I could probably outrun many individuals in their 30/40s but would not be allowed to cruise.

You'll be pleased to know that preliminary results from New York, as the state released data last week on the top 10 chronic health problems suffered by people who died from COVID-19,  showed that asthma was notably absent, i.e., not even in the top 10.  After old age, which was in the top 10, the most significant factor predicting that COVID-19 infection would lead to hospitalization was obesity.  Here's the reference:

https://khn.org/morning-breakout/understanding-covid-19-data-continues-to-reveal-surprising-truths-mysterious-clues-and-comforting-facts-about-virus/

Since you are only 58 years old and asthma is not even in the top 10 list of factors, you have nothing to worry about as long as you don't suffer from obesity.

5 hours ago, upwarduk said:

 

It is with extreme sadness that I have to admit that our cruising days are probably now over.

I will however report back, when I get a reply from Celebrity ( who are in the same RCCL group as Azamara).

Your cruising days are probably not over.  I am in the same position as you....over 70 and unable to get a physician's letter.  

When CLIA directed in mid-March that all member cruise lines required a physician's letter, I thought my cruising days were over.  Then I discovered that Viking is not a member of CLIA so I knew that I could cruise with them as I had in the past.  Then CLIA removed the requirement in early April and now only Azamara, Celebrity and Royal Caribbean continue to age discriminate.  I am prepared to forfeit my deposit with Azamara and never sail with them again if they expect me to coerce my physician into signing a document that he would prefer not to sign.

1 hour ago, Argo. said:

Until this policy changes, we are not going anywhere:

Avoid all cruise ship travel

The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) is recommending that Canadians avoid all cruise ship travel due to the ongoing COVID-19 outbreak.

 

 

 

Even if PHAC had no policy on cruise ship travel, we still could not travel.  Canada currently has a level 3 travel advisory against all non-essential travel.   My travel insurance, including travel medical insurance, is not valid when there is a level 3 travel advisory.  Anyone with travel insurance will soon discover that this probably applies to them as well.

21 minutes ago, acesneights99 said:

Regarding Royal Caribbean vs. Celebrity. When we take grandchildren, we use Royal Caribbean. So, when the new over 70 policy came into force we canceled 3 cabins. 

 

If the policy doesn't change, we will be forced to change to Carnival.

Why Carnival?  Except for Celebrity, Azamara and Royal Caribbean,  no cruise lines now require a physician's letter for those over 70.  Celebrity, Azamara and Royal Caribbean are now the ONLY cruise lines which continue to discriminate against older folks.  It is just a matter of time before they encounter sufficient cancellations from senior cruisers to realize this policy is not in their best interests. 

Until they change this policy, I am prepared to forfeit my deposit.

4 hours ago, yorky said:

Covid 19 is certainly beyond their control, but a little unfair to state because of this they were forced to change their policy and as such are not responsible for the change and have no need to refund your deposit.

Celebrity is being disingenuous in claiming that they were forced to change their policy.  All CLIA member cruise lines required a letter for those 70 and older starting in mid-March.  In early April, CLIA removed the requirement from their website.  Since then all cruise lines removed the age discriminatory requirement from their website with the exception of Celebrity, Azamara and Royal Caribbean.  

17 minutes ago, laslomas said:

 But basically they say: A letter is needed, but no guidance on what it should say. No specified time frame for this. If I cancel due to this NEW requirement I will lose my deposit.

Azamara, Celebrity and Royal Caribbean, all subsidiaries of RCCL, are now the only cruise lines requiring a physician's letter for those 70 and older.  The required template letter appears on both the Azamara and Royal Caribbean websites.  The template letter on the Azamara site is identical to the one on the Royal Caribbean site which suggests that they both received it from RCCL.   It sounds like RCCL either failed to send the template letter on to Celebrity, or Celebrity is incompetent and mismanaged.

I have a cruise booked with Azamara and have accepted that I will forfeit the deposit since my physician won't sign it.  I have not yet cancelled in case RCCL decides it is not in their best interests to engage in blatant age discrimination before my full payment is due.

52 minutes ago, helen haywood said:

 

 

Can you tell me where you found this information?  I went to the CLIA's website but couldn't find anything except a form that the cruiser fills out themselves at the port.

The information regarding the required physician's letter appeared on the CLIA website in mid-March.  It was removed sometime in early April.  Since it has been removed, there is no longer a link to the March version.

35 minutes ago, gerelmx said:

 

Therefore, effective Monday, March 16th, boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, at the time of embarkation, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.

Azamara, like Celebrity, is a RCCL subsidiary.  On the Azamara site, reference is made to getting a form signed by "your physician" and there is no reference to a "qualified treating physician".  Celebrity, for no compelling reason, fails to mention that "your physician"  can sign.  Apparently when RCCL sent a directive from head office to Azamara and Celebrity, they left it up to the individual cruise lines to determine whether clients could use their own physicians or be forced to search for a random qualified treating physician.    It seems that either chaos or indecision reigns at RCCL as they have yet to act upon Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA) removing their March 2020 proposal to require medical letters for seniors.

7 minutes ago, gerelmx said:

Non US Citizens need an American Doctor?

Where does it say that?

49 minutes ago, keesar said:

 

With 7 ships coming on line in the foreseeable future, it would be financial suicide to continue to use that form.  Other lines are not using that type of form and I expect them to pick up some business from former Celebrity cruisers.  Where is Celebrity or RCCL going to get the money to pay for these ships and to maintain the existing fleet?  

Azamara is a RCCL subsidiary and also requires the age discriminatory medical form which my physician will not sign.  I have an Azamara cruise booked for early 2021 and the final payment is due in September, 2020.   If Azamara does not abandon this unfair policy by September,  I will certainly cancel and book with another cruise line.

1 hour ago, markeb said:

J

I'm several years out of this demographic, but there's no way my physician would clear me to travel for at least the next 12-18 months. Or actually work in close proximity to large numbers of people. Getting on a cruise ship would be traveling against medical advice, which would probably void medical coverage on a travel insurance policy. The age in the original plan is just an easy thing to key on here.

My physician thinks I'm in excellent health.  However, he also thinks no one should cruise these days and is not about to sign a medical release for a cruise. He also claims that his medical association advised him not to sign any such form.

There is another issue at play here.  I don't know about the US but here in Canada we have a level 3 travel advisory against all non-essential international travel.  My travel medical insurance is invalid during a level 3 travel advisory.  Even if a physician signed a letter clearing us to take a cruise, our travel medical insurance would be invalid until the lifting of the advisory.

27 minutes ago, drakes2 said:

A doctors fit to travel documentation is not a requirement on Viking River cruises. I inquired yesterday.

Neither Viking River nor Viking Ocean cruises ever required a medical note for seniors.  Viking has never been a CLIA member which issued the medical directive in March.

8 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

 

 

As a matter of interest, who did you book with? I just checked the HAL site and there's no indication there that I could find of any requirement for a 70+ form anywhere on the site.

I just checked the websites of HAL, Princess and Seabourn, all of which are Carnival Corp brands.  None of them now list the medical note requirement for those 70 and older. 

38 minutes ago, helen haywood said:

Just my opinion but I don't think the over 70 with health issues letter was because they hoped the US Government would bail them out....I think they just hoped it would allow them to continue to sail.

Here's why I initially thought they hoped for a bailout:

“We can’t let the cruise lines go out of business,” President Trump said on March 22 as Congress was working out the final details of the coronavirus relief package that would become the CARES Act.

Source:  https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/cruise-lines-are-already-getting-coronavirus-support.html

However,  you are probably correct and the industry was merely hoping they could continue to sail.

36 minutes ago, drakes2 said:

If they don't pay US taxes why would they think they are entitled to a bailout?

Since I don't support a bailout, I can only speculate.  Here's what appeared in the Miami Herald in late March:

"According to CLIA, the cruise industry is responsible for 150,000 Florida jobs and $7.7 billion in wages. The three major lines have about 10,000 employees based in South Florida."