frequent traveler

http://www.na24.no/article2960715.ece

This may be the reason

FT

Sorry, I read the translated version, but here only the Norwegian version links . The owner of SD placed 3 companies in bankruptcy today in Norway if I am reading correctly. I believe one is the corporate parent of SD- to whom he transferred ownership back in 2010 when he had other financial difficulties.

Raising to the top since since time has lapsed and unless I've missed it - no update yet. I work for a Swedish company and deadlines are very important. However I also understand that Swedes and Norwegians disagree on almost everything ( if I believe all the digs I've heard when alcohol is involved;)).

FT

I have always loved this board because there is no flaming or snarkiness. When I go to a couple of others the nastiness makes me hope I never encounter these posters on a voyage.

But I don't understand why SD has gone back to "56 couples" unless it plans to ban children. Talk about misleading marketing. That makes it worse not better if the little hellions disrupt your vacation. We've gone from spending 21 days on SD in 8 months to none in 18 months since we take many trips during school holidays. Until SD is willing to throw off both the hellions and their failing parents at a minimum we won't throw the dice again. While we would like to see some changes for the better, we don't have high expectations- and we miss the crew and on board staff terribly. Facebook and emails are nice but not enough. I want them all back!

FT

How did I miss that?:mad: I do remember an incident in the bar one night.

Different cruise- you witnessed the lovely young Norwegian who decided to dance and remove her clothes along the way. That was the cruise where a bartender was usually up until 3 for that group. You did hear about the topless sunbathing at the time. It was the yacht sales people (not the SD sales team on board- that was another cruise) but the NY folks who sold yachts for a living.

Why have I had all the kids and family groups and some other yahoo gets the topless babes???:eek::D:D

Our 5 day cruise a few years ago from Dec 12 -17 was one of those. Maybe only one well behaved kid but a rowdy bunch of adults. Several women went topless poolside before the HOT MAN intervened. There was a bit of grumbling but tops remained on for the duration.

Most of the posters on this board either post from the yachts while on board or do a review here. If you read down, there are several threads that are either reviews or links to a review. But we don't do the "formal" CC reviews.

With only 112 guests on a fully booked yacht, many of whom may not follow CC, there's not as active a pool of reviewers as for other lines. Of course, just my opinion.

FT

Well said CDreamer. I would love to make SD my only choice for holiday again.

21 days a yr on board SD was our target.

FT

I'm just disappointed that nothing has been posted on the kids on seadream thread in over 24 hours. It's almost like losing a reliable friend. Lol!

 

 

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Hopefully for everyone headed to Costa Rica and the Far East it will stay quiet until the Christmas/New years week. Last years Christmas cruise was the spoiled teenagers.

FT

Just saw the post from SD management. WOW, I believe it's a first. The captain leaving has left before. . .

Catch this one! Was just thumbing through the November Travel+Leisure over a quick bite of lunch when I saw several annual surveys including the "2013 Winners For Family Travel." You guessed it, SeaDream was voted #2 under the small-ship cruise category. Unlike Avis, let's hope SD doesn't try harder to become #1.

I checked my review from our 2012 B2B cruise - SD was no. 3 in this same category, so they have moved up one place in one year.

FT

We always got our B2bB in one itinerary. We only checked in once and only did one lifeboat drill.

FT

JES, don't feel bad, we have not received any invites either. Possibly our opinions preceded us? Heck, PC won't even respond to

My email.

Add us to the no invitation list also.

But we too have voiced concerns to 2 different TAs.. One who does nothing but luxury trips

FT

Noticed on a popular site that the price of our cruise is on a special hidden offer, 450 usd each cheaper than we have agreed - with 200 usd cabin credit.

To cancel 94 days out is 200usd each.

Is it worth asking SD for 500-700 usd cabin credit, or do I just cancel and rebook?

cancel and rebook - SD in our experience will not fully match "hidden offer" which is usually TA driven rebate of part of commission. They certainly will not do after final payment date and in our experience will "consider" past 90 days unless you are using a TA - if you are using a TA, see if that TA can get you a deal. We were successful once but not when there was a 2nd fare reduction.

Do it now while you can.

FT

P.S. we used to book on board for credit, then transfer to TA to help with any issues that arose, since I had no luck dealing with MIami directly unless James Cabello or Adrienne (sorry I can't spell her last name) personally got involved.

My wife and I traveled on SD for the first time this past summer. There were 3 families with young children (under 8). I can say without reservation that the kids were incredibly well behaved and had absolutely no impact on our voyage. Indeed, what I noticed were adults who were much more likely to be loud and/or difficult. From my perspective, the problem is not children, but rather, with parents who either don't discipline their children and teach them manners as well as adults who feel entitled on the ship. I have no issues with traveling with children on board my next SD so long as they behave appropriately/respectfully (which I could say the same about adults as well). Also, parents need to use some common sense. Taking kids on a trip with many ports and activities might be fine whereas a crossing voyage...not so much. Just my 2 cents.

We have had most of our voyages with well behaved children so have never cringed when seeing them on board until our last voyage on SD, which will be our last until we can travel in non school holiday when you run less the risk of an "unruly pack of hellions"

Regent does not ban children but when heavily booked will sometimes run a children's program. We've booked but had to cancel AZAMARA and are trying out Silversea. None ban children, but all have balcony cabins which would give me the quiet outdoors space I would like to escape to but don't have on SD when overrun by undisciplined parents. As noted above in port intensive places such as Alaska where we are off the ship by 8 and not back on often until 8, the no of children isn't an issue. But on small Greek or Croatian ports where everyone is back aboard and you are even sailing in the afternoon as is the case with SD, there is no quiet outdoor space. I have often chided Jim Avery for continuing to bring up our first cruise from hell when almost 1/3 the passengers were teens or under thinking SD had changed its policies to the better. Sorry JA, I was wrong.

Now SD has clearly changed again, no longer marketing itself as directed to couples. We won't play the $10 k roll the dice gamble. If SD has to change its business model to stay in business, I hope it succeeds. But we won't be supporting the current business model. I have a limited no of vacation days - so we will be taking a European river cruise and land based trips. I used to compare SD to a 4 Seasons hotel. The service is still on par, but management at a 4 Seasons would never let a guest's experience be ruined like SD now does.

FT

Sadly as one onboard the recent two week cruise in the Black Sea marred by children and a group that acted as if it had chartered the entire ship, while Miami may be like NSA and listening in on us, they frankly don't seem to care or at least don't see this as a problem the way we do.

 

They also claim that only five cruises since 2001 resulted in backlash from other passengers. While also claiming that kids are not the norm, and saying we should know that from our now nine prior voyages, they continue to cater to the vast minority with kids.

 

 

SD may not be Sea Nightmare as an earlier writer harshly opined, but very sadly it is moving toward Sea Disney. At least for us, that isn't a relaxing cruise on a luxury yacht. The attitude from communication with Miami makes a mockery of the yachting not cruising mantra that the onboard crew works so hard to deliver. We will miss the crew and retain fond memories of voyages that brought us back year after year, but I won't be surprised if the Black Sea kiddie/group cruise turns out to be our last.

JES,

Unfortunately I agree with you on all of the above - I find it hard to believe that only 5 voyages since 2001 "had backlash" -- I know of 6 where MANY customers complained, I was on two of those, another one was a week after our last SD voyage, and at least 3 different ones have been posted about on this board and we know people on those cruises. And I know that on our last one - nothing was offered by SD, not even an apology for not enforcing the behaviour policy (such as it is)

Unfortunately, we have moved to larger ships, having booked our next one on another luxury line (still considered "small") but large to us based on SD. SD cabins are so small, that if you are trying to avoid the hoodlums, you don't even have a decent private area to retreat to for peace and quiet. We too may have made our last SD voyage.

FT

Amen to the last several posts. On our recent Black Sea misadventure the privileged kids were actually being encouraged or at least not stopped by their "parents/friends" in the large group mini-charter they were part of from DIVING from the wood deck around the pool into the pool. As we all know, there are is the tiled shelf around the pool in the water plus metal railings just below the tiled shelf, not to mention the pool overall is quite narrow. Luckily no one was hurt but the risk of injury with kids in that environment should be something that parents, friends and ultimately management takes into account in how to fashion and follow a better child policy. I am hopeful we are being heard but time will tell!

I don't know - last year, one jumped into the pool and landed on ZQ Vol. While not a dive, ZQ Vol didn't feel so great for a couple of days, but the same pack of four boys didn't slow down a bit. It was rare to see an adult in the hot tub or pool that 2nd week until the last 2 days when management finally decided to act. Since maritime law and that contract we all sign (read the fine print) limits SD's liability, I don't think the complaints make a difference. Until people stop booking AND that makes a difference in the bottom line (which to date, hasn't happened), nothing will change.

FT

Even that is ignored. As we stated, we sailed with a 6mos old with its Nanny.:eek:

And remember the Nanny who left the children unattended? one almost wandered off the pool deck into the ocean? another time the two children were dancing and speaking while the CAD was trying to discuss the next port? same thing happened last summer on our last SD voyage. Guess because the CAD was speaking one language and the small children were speaking another, the parents thought it was OK!

FT

A Sea Dream guide exists:

 

What is SeaDream Yacht Club’s policy regarding children?

 

SeaDream is excellent for couples and friends as well as families with mature, well traveled children aged 13 and older. Adults with children younger than 13 years of age should perhaps consider SeaDream Yacht Club carefully as an option. Children aged 1 or younger are not allowed. We do not have formal children’s programs or baby sitting services available on the yacht. In some cases the children’s nanny or au pair traveling with the family is ideal. When families are on board parents are expected to manage the behavior of their children to ensure that the enjoyment of other guests is in no manner compromised. Guest satisfaction is highly important to SeaDream. The crew has been instructed to immediately inform parents about unacceptable behavior of our younger guests! SeaDream follows local laws as it relates to drinking age and this varies from 18 to 21 years of age.

Families who elect to charter the vessel may set up children’s programs and other children’s services not normally available on regular voyages. Please consult our charter department for further information.

 

So JES you see it is unlikely this will ever be abandoned to above 18 years old only.

 

My question is: is this guide actually enforced by management ?

This issue appears to be worsening.

 

Another consideration. Would you not allow crew to allow their own families onboard even though they are well behaved and the parents act very responsibly ?

The fact that there is a guide about children and even expressly permitting children over the age of 1 just sealed the deal.

FT

JES,

First, thank you for your postings - it has helped us make a decision on what ports we do want to visit in the Black Sea.

Thank you for adding to the inquiries to Norway & Miami. One TA I used said the water sports were being used to sell SD as family friendly, thus it's high ranking last fall as a good option for those wanting fine dining & children in Travel & Leisure. I think the new ratings either came out last week or are due out soon. I'm on a business trip, but will be interested to see how SD fares this year.

FT

Now, now FT. Let us look at the evidence. Your second SeaDream voyage (and ours) was March, 2005 aka: The Kid Trip From He**. Exhibit A: You met us at the TOY Bar at the beginning of that March, 2005 trip. Exhibit B: Your join date on Cruise Critic was March, 2005, shortly after the KTFH. Exhibit C: Your husband (ZQVOL) has 11,692 posts on Cruise Critic! And you had never heard of Cruise Critic??:eek: Exhibit D: Ageist comments about memory loss can incurr Class Action suits.:eek: You have been such a kid magnet over the years, no wonder you are confused. The Prosecution rests.:D:D

And ZQ Vol's join date on CC was also March 2005 - AFTER the Easter debacle. We first sailed on SD with a company charter a year or two earlier. Again, so sorry for the failing memory. I don't know Lois does it;)

FT

I guess there must be some legal eagles out there - yes, you !

Your fellow/potential Sea Dream passengers/ lovers NEED YOU ! (you maybe have'nt posted before: it's real easy) please explain (think you are explaining this to a seven year old: oh, the irony !)

 

IS THERE A LEGAL CASE AGAINST SEA DREAM FOR THIS DECEPTION IN THE PROMOTION OF THEIR PRODUCT & THE ACTUALITY

 

It seems we are nearing the end of the road on this one; leaving only the un-thinkable.........

No, no legal case. And when my children were 7 yrs. old , the reason was "because I said so." Now for the legalese, Even if SD was subject to the FTC or most state laws on deceptive trade practices (which IMHO it isnt, maritime law and country of flagging controlling I think, but please correct me if wrong) AND still using marketing materials saying 52, 54, 56, or however many couples with the addition of the Admiral's Suite several years ago, I don't think any of us have posted evidence of SD ever expressly guaranteeing an adults only cruise or yachting experience. Pretty pictures of only adults don't suffice (maybe they can revise the postcards they leave as a gift on the bed one night to include one with a family at a Champagne Splash).

FT

I'm sure it doesn't matter to SD but our next 2 big holidays will be spent on non SD trips. Before last year we would be on that Dec 28 voyage. Not now. If it includes the large family group that was on 2 last Christmas, be prepared for general rowdiness.

At the risk of getting flamed, i think this issue is pretty straightforward. Sea Dream is in the business of making money, or at least not losing too much money so aren't going to be turning away paying clients. I think one of you observed correctly that voyages explicitly advertised as child friendly would likely run far from full, assuming Sea Dream generally runs 90% or so capacity on average which appears to be the case, that's not a winning formula unless the adult only cruises can command a significant premium. I do perceive that Sea Dream is having a more difficult time on some voyages getting to the 90% capacity than they did a few years ago, it seems like Windstar has raised its profile/game and advertises much more so there could be some pressure. To be clear, i cringed a few weeks ago when i saw a small handful of kids a few weeks ago on SD1, but it turned out they were very well behaved and a delight, so i would have hated to cancel based on knowledge of there being children on board. There's no perfect answer here for all "stakeholders", seems like the best balance is (as some here have suggested) that HQ be very explicit to those who bring children what the standards of behavior are, but that's no guaranty. Or perhaps they could try an "experiment" with a small number of adult only voyages and see how that impacts overall sales. It is a small ship, and while we were lucky, it doesn't take but a few unruly fellow passengers (children or adult) to meaningfully mar a vacation, in a larger ship a few bad eggs are much less obvious, but there's a reason we choose a small ship. As for me, since returning i have shared my Sea Dream experience with others, and will likely plan another trip next year with some of them. And yes, i have warned them that we are taking a real risk with "kids on board"!

 

 

 

 

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I hope you don't feel flamed. I think we try to maintain some level of civility on this board though I must comment that Mr. Avery has me confused with some other person he met aboard SD. I don't think I had ever heard of CC until I met the lovely Mrs. Avery and her spouse on our 2nd SD voyage. So sorry about Mr. Avery's memory loss. When you retire and move to SCW in Arizona, it's an inevitable consequence. To get back on topic, we too have had a couple of well behaved youngsters on all of our SD voyages, except my 4 crossings which were child free(adult behavior was another story/ but what happens on a crossing stays on a crossing) But it seems that when more than a few chilren are on board, they form a "pack" and unless the parents monitor, behavior deteriorates to the lowest level. I'd be happy if SD would just enforce the behavior rules and get tough with the parents.

FT

As someone suggested previously, I think the problem is that if SD management designated some cruises as "Children Welcome" and others as "Adults Only", most of the "children welcome" cruises would run 65% vacant. Many adults don't want to sail on a small luxury ship with children, but cruise lines don't want to give up the extra revenue (albeit small). So they would rather deceive loyal pax by not being honest about when and how many children will be sailing.

If I'm wrong, I hope someone in SD management will correct me.

Unfortunately I agree with you, SD has always told me or my TA UPON INQUIRY how many children are booked. However that number increased after final payment on our last voyage and we had no recourse. I didn't buy cancel for any reason insurance so we had a wonderful first week and a hopefully never to be repeated 2nd week.

Apologies commodoredave but doesnt it seem exasperating to keep on at Sea Dream ?

 

What makes it worse, is that if management do follow these forums (how do you know that ?)

 

Because different individual members of managment have told more than one of us so . . the former President, Larry Pimentel originally hated CC and gave little credit to it, but has learned to live with it on Azamara. After all we only represent a few individuals in the total market. More than half the newbies I meet on SD have never heard of CC, though we always meet a few couples who are trying SD for the first time because of the reviews and/or this Board.

 

FT

Wow, even the most "entitled" we've sailed with have never claimed to have reserved TOY or the library, regardless of the number. I did have a friendly race with the hordes of Norwegian friends of former Captain Tysse every morning for my favorite chair by the pool on a crossing (I even sat out in the rain once with a blanket over my head to keep my chair).

Its a vicious circle as I said after our cruise last year - SD refuses to enforce its any behavior rules so it can fill a yacht and as a result it drives away the original target market, which in turn means it takes more and more unruly groups and children. Sorry you are having to endure this - hope you are managing to enjoy some of the trip. I know confining yourself to a cabin to avoid children is not fun - at least not in a cabin the size of SD. So I hope you are able to make use of other spots on the yacht.

one more thing - one yacht is always available for charter - my company has chartered twice in the Caribbean and I once had some spare time playing with the numbers - a charter is more expensive then filling every cabin at the website rates. There is a lot of different factors - including Commodore Suites v. cabins, etc. but it was hard to find a configuration where a full ship booked by individuals raised more in fares than a charter. So I don't think SD will ever not have one of the yachts available for Charter.

FT

We sailed Seabourn prior to the recent tightening of their smoking rules. As reformed smokers, we had no problems on the Spirit in any venue. And Lois is very picky about that stuff.:eek::D

Jim,

If you can decipher the rules (and they are as poorly written as the worst legalese) Seabourn has actually relaxed the smoking rules. Imagine paying for a verandah suite and not being able to use it because of a constant smoker next door. I've been following that thread and its gotten very nasty at times.

That's another reason why I LOVE SD when there are no hellions on board, strict enforcement of the smoking zones. When a couple next to me on a west bound TA in the other half of a Commodore started smoking in their cabin, they got a letter first, when it continued (I guess since it was a TA they figured they would not be dropped off in a lifeboat) the Capt advised them that they would be banned from SD if it continued, regardless of more than 200 nights on board the two had accumulated. While they grumbled and loudly complained to all at TOY, no more smoke coming through the divider. Now SD will enforce that rule because its a safety rule. I'm just waiting to see the reaction when one of the little darlings left unattended for "just a moment" by the parent almost goes overboard on Deck 2, as happened on the voyage we shared with J&L Avery. The yacht is certainly not childproof. I think that most of us who have been responsible for small children keep that characteristic for life. So it's hard to relax when you see a 3 yr old with water wings left alone in the pool because his parents wanted to use the jet ski and then learn to water ski.

FT