Terpnut

We stayed at the Best Western Elkridge, booked through Trinity Reservations. We did a New Years Eve cruise out of Baltimore.

We plugged in the address and drove there, then we put in the GPS address for the White House, and we drove there, right down town! We parked on the streets around the corner from the White House, and walked around. It was easy! We were there on December 26th prior to our cruise.

 

The hotel was off the beaten path, it was a-ok. We also had local crab cakes in a great restaurant. Then we took the free shuttle to the ship and had a great cruise.

 

We found driving around this area was ok. Not too bad at all. It was a wonderful pre-cruise quick tour of the area...and we are going to do similar for our next cruise in April....

 

Good luck and have fun planning!!!!! Have a great cruise... which cruise are you on?

We are staying at the same hotel this April...

You were very lucky to drive and visit DC on a federal holiday, so the government was closed, and parking is plentiful and free. As I mentioned before, if you know you will be arriving on a holiday or weekend, then driving straight into and around town is usually a good bet! If however you are visiting during a work day, and especially between Labor Day and Memorial Day, then traffic and parking can be a nightmare. Everything depends on the specific day(s) of the week you plan to visit.

Beginning stages of planning. Was thinking of doing a cruise and stay package at a hotel. I have enjoyed DC in the past. Figured a day trip in would be cool. Maybe the zoo or a museum or two. I would be traveling alone in April.

Budget.. I don't want to be spending $500 a night, but I also want to not be at no tell motel.

If all you are doing is a one day visit to DC, then by all means stay near the airport in any of the reasonably-priced hotels near Hanover or Linthicum and consider any of the driving options previously posted. Note that if you want to visit the National Zoo, I suggest you just drive straight and park there since it is located in upper NW DC in Cleveland Park--an area where you won't benefit at all from using MARC/Metro. MARC/Metro works better for visiting the downtown or Mall areas (where most of the Smithsonian museums are). And if you were not already aware, the Zoo is also part of the Smithsonian and so it's all free! :)

I have to say that the conflicting options/opinions/who is right commentary is not too helpful to non-MD/DC natives. I am not sure how the person who originally poised the question feels.

 

I was interested in the answer myself as I like their idea of doing some sightseeing in the city prior to leaving on the cruise. I would NEVER drive into DC, but that seems to be a sticking point in the "quien es mas macho" back and forth.

 

So let's try again: Going to cruise from Baltimore. Interested in going to DC to sight-see. Safe area to get a hotel w/ easy access to a TRAIN to get to the city???

I think the answer to your question lies in what exactly is your own budget and travel style. The reasoning behind most of my previous answers and perhaps why I disagree with Trixiegal is because when I travel, my time is worth more than my money. Or perhaps I am just not on a budget. :)

 

For example, when you visit New York, would you tell someone to stay in Jersey City and take PATH into the city? Or is Queens more affordable? Personally, I stay in mid-town (even when I drive!). When you visit Rome, do you stay in Fiumicino and take the train into Rome, or stay in Rome? My personal perspective has always been that it's worth spending $$$ to avoid X more hours in a train or car when on vacation because my time is valuable. But that's me and of course, it's not for me to decide how to spend YOUR time or money.

 

So I really can't provide guidance without knowing what your limits are as far as budget and time spent in car and train. So if you are not inclined to spend more to save time, then staying in Hanover (or Elkridge, Laurel or Greenbelt), taking the MARC and/or Metro may indeed be the best option for you. If that is correct, then Trixiegal's earlier post about areas in the corridor is pretty spot-on as far as budget hotel areas that are convenient to MARC. :)

 

And again, if you could be more specific as to your budget, planned length of visit, which days of the week you will be visiting, and what sites you want to see, that would allow us to provide more specific guidance.

ITA. I said to let it go but there are people on these boards who feel that their way is the only way. That ALL people need to do things the way they and their "friends" do them. That what is inconvenient to them is also inconvenient to others. Which is highly ironic given this is a FORUM for all kinds of cruise/travel info from different perspectives and alternate opinions. I have a differing opinion based on fact and firsthand knowledge and don't ever let keyboard bullies sway me. No power plays, just standing up for my right to give my informed opinion on CC despite bulldozing.*shrugs*

It's really funny because I was just about to express the same sentiments about you. I have no agenda here except to give advice too--advice that is not worth less than yours. And as it seems I do drive through the traffic patterns from Hanover to DC more than you, you react by feeling insulted, getting personal and putting me down--rather than acknowledging facts and having any real dialogue.

 

For those outside the DC area, please don't take my word or Trixiegal's word for anything. If you are even thinking about driving daily from Hanover and you think I'm just trolling, please visit maps.google.com for independent, historical data-based drive times. Use the address for any Hanover hotel and enter the address of a DC destination or any Metro station of your choice. Use the traffic feature and there is a button for you to set the planned departure time. Then reverse the origin and destination, set your planned return drive time to see the estimated return drive time.

 

Personally, I don't have any problem with someone staying in Hanover for their visit DC--it's not my vacation nor my time that is spent in the car. My only purpose is to ensure that visitors get the information they need. So here's a summary of what I see as your options:

 

1. Drive daily from Hanover to MARC station, park, take MARC, and take Metro into DC option

 

Depending on which hotel you select, it'll take you 5-10 minutes to drive to and park at the BWI MARC station. Then it's a 40 minute train ride to Union Station (http://mta.maryland.gov/marc-train). Then it's either walk Capitol, National Gallery, Newseum, etc. (all 10 min?) or transfer to Metro (another 10-15 min) to other parts of DC, perhaps National Air & Space Museum, monuments, Georgetown etc. Here's the link to Metro: http://www.wmata.com/rail. So between driving, parking, waiting for trains and riding trains, I'd plan on 50-65 min each direction.

 

2. Drive daily from Hanover directly to a Metro station and then take Metro into DC option

 

Depending on traffic, it's probably ~25 minutes to Greenbelt Metro. Depending on your final destination and possible transfers on Metro, you still will have 25-45 minutes on the Metro/subway to your final destination.

 

3. Drive daily from Hanover directly into DC option

 

To drive to DC, as per my last post, you are looking at 60-75 minutes in rush hour. Rush hour would be 7:00 am to 9:30 am (maybe later) or 3:00 pm to 6:30 pm or later. If you're lucky, you can do the rush hour drive in 45-50 min each way. Of course you could avoid rush hour, but then you'd have only 3-4 hours in DC. And plan to pay $15-$24 per day to park on workdays. Drive times are much shorter and parking is cheap or even free on weekends so which days you visit matter.

 

4. Drive to DC and stay in DC option

 

The most convenient, albeit expensive option is to stay in the city. If you're on a budget, you could consider parking for free and staying at some of the hotels along New York Avenue. It's not the most scenic area of the city but it's much safer/nicer than it was 10-20 years ago and there is a new New York Avenue Metro station that opened recently nearby. Depending on the hotel however, it may not be walkable so ask about shuttles.

 

5. Stay in Hanover, pack some overnight bags, park, take MARC/Metro to DC hotel, and stay in DC the entire visit option

 

You could pack a smaller bag just for your few days in DC, leave the rest of your stuff in the car, drive to and park at the BWI MARC station, take the MARC train and Metro to a DC hotel and stay downtown. This way, you've minimized your parking costs, don't have to drive at all during your DC visit and will be able to Metro or walk everywhere.

 

If you want more advice, please be more specific on your actual length of stay, which days of the week you plan to be here, and which tourist sites you may want to visit, and I may be able to offer more specific, detailed planning advice. Good luck! :)

Hi guys! I thought I'd chime in again. I see the cle-guy has been trying to explain or rationalize the tipping process for the past several days!

 

I'd just like to say again that some of us (mostly Americans) are trying to explain the way it works, and perhaps rationalize why it may be good. I for one, don't think it's a great system.

 

Yet despite the hundreds of posts, Adidas4fun still seems upset despite these explanations, rationalizations or other comments and remains "confused and bewildered". I'm not sure how or why he feels "abused" on here though!?

 

I simply think this thread has reached a point of diminishing returns. Some Americans and others have tried to explain the system and seem to be defending it. Some Americans explain to the best of our ability, yet we do not defend it. Just want to explain how it works. Regardless of what we say, some of you do not get it, do not accept it, and perhaps never will.

 

So I can only politely say: I tried to explain it to the best of my ability, and some of you are nevertheless still not satisfied with my (or others') explanations. So again, how does this change YOUR behaviors when you are immersed in a tipping culture. I can only hope that, with this information, you can make, if not a fully understanding, at least a mostly-informed decision on what to do. In the end, it's entirely your call. But I don't think we are further informing anyone, or convincing anyone else, based on nuances of livable wages or transparency of costs.

 

In summary, in some shape or form, tipping is simply an accepted custom in much of the civilized world. And if anything, it's expanding! Not saying that's good or bad--just the way it is. :)

Okay, I'm going on what the original request was. They didn't want to spend the night in the DC area and they don't have to! I've already explained why and I'm not going over it again. Let it go. We aren't talking about driving to/from Delaware or Richmond. It will NOT take 2-3 hours to get to DC from this area unless there is a bad accident or extreme weather event. Which would affect the traffic anyway in ALL areas outside of the city limits. Traffic is a problem all around the DMV.

 

I get it. You think driving from the Hanover/Bmore suburbs to DC is crazy. So don't do it. But many, many, many other people do and aren't as frustrated as you seem to be. It's perfectly doable with the right amount of info and preparation, especially moreso on a weekend like you said or even during the week in the summer months when kids are out of school.

I don't understand how you can make claims that it will not take 2-3 hours round-trip during anything except mid-day for NORMAL DC area traffic when it is. I do it all the time and that IS the drive. If you don't believe me, use Google Maps and it will give you estimates of drive times by hour based on real, historical drive times. For this week (and it was a good week), the average drive during the morning from Hanover to DC was 1 hr 10-15 min. The average drive during the late afternoon/early evening from DC to Hanover was 1 hr 15 min. So any visitor coming to visit DC will spend AT LEAST 2 hr 30 minutes driving to/from DC from Hanover.

 

And while I understand that the original poster specifically asked about killing two proverbial birds with one hotel stay, I am saying that not wanting to change hotels is a small convenience that is greatly outweighed by the tremendous inconvenience and overall waste of time spent commuting each day. I live in the corridor area with a similar drive to DC hotspots, and even when my best friends come to visit DC, they NEVER stay with or near me simply because nobody wants to base their DC tour operation from the corridor area. Again, it's definitely doable for a day or perhaps even two, but the longer the DC visit, the closer one should stay to DC. And BTW, while I don't love the traffic, I'm not personally "frustrated" at all with any of it, but I do think that people visiting our area and are unfamiliar with the traffic should be accurately informed as to what to expect, and I do think you underestimate the commute times and hassles that they will face during the most likely times they will be heading into and out of DC.

Sigh... Haven't you heard about assumptions??? I'm a Silver Spring native, lived in DC for a few years for college AND in Greenbelt for seven years, so, yeah, all of my info is based on firsthand knowledge. You are making this much more difficult than it is. Guess you're not too familiar with my area and that thousands, YES, thousands of people commute to DC every single day on the BW Parkway from the Baltimore region. It's not that huge of a hassle and we know traffic is bad EVERYWHERE around the Beltway, so staying closer to DC in a Md suburb like Rockville or Bethesda does not guarantee less traffic. Ever been stuck on Rockville Pike/Wisconsin Ave during rush hour????

 

My advice was making it easier by having ONE HOTEL and not switching around hotels before even stepping foot on a cruise ship. It can be done without even driving to Greenbelt, especially by taking a MARC train from BWI or Dorsey into Union Station. I work in the hospitality industry in this area and hotel prices are very high in Bethesda, Silver Spring and Rockville compared to Elkridge and Hanover. I wouldn't suggest any tourists stay in Greenbelt.

 

If one doesn't want to drive, then stay in DC. Otherwise, you will experience some traffic no matter the time of day and pay for expensive parking garages in the city. Parking for the day at Greenbelt is minimal.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

Assuming a visitor wishes to do 2, 3, 4 or more full touring days visiting DC, why would you recommend that they stay near Hanover and drive in rush hour traffic BOTH ways to/from the city? You must not make this drive yourself from the Hanover area into DC daily because, it takes about 1 hr 15 min in typical rush hour, and be up to 2 hours in bad traffic, into DC, and approx an 1 hr or more in rush hour on the northbound return. And the MARC train/Metro option is even more time-consuming. This all assumes weekday driving during the spring/winter/fall traffic seasons, and of course, weekends and summer are better. So the only way I stay in Hanover as my base to visit DC would be if I arrive and plan to visit DC on a summer weekend. Otherwise, stay much closer to the destination.

 

We can both agree that staying in DC is the best option, but if I'm visiting DC for anything more than a day or two, I would recommend staying much much closer and switch hotels, than to stay in one hotel near Hanover for the entire period! Personally I don't like Greenbelt either but virtually anything is better than unnecessarily spending 2 to 3 hours per day trapped in a car driving to/from DC simply to avoid moving hotels once!

 

Of course, a visitor tourist can stay in Hanover and avoid rush hour traffic by leaving around 10 am and making sure to hit the roads home by 2:30 pm but what is the point of doing that so you'd have only 3-4 hours in the city???

Right. So tipping is natural, whereas not tipping is not because we must be conditioned through our water system.

 

It's funny how you proclaim neutrality and just that you "respect customs" yet have this big bee in your bonnet trying to justify and defend your favoured position, and put down those who disagree with it.

If you read my posts carefully, you should know that 1) I don't like or approve of our tipping custom and 2) I have never defended it. I have however tried to explain it based on my understanding. I personally agree with 90% of what you and others have been saying: that it's not a great system and may be partly (or even mostly) driven by pre-existing business practices, etc. However my opinions or feelings on it don't change the reality that it exists or that I need to live with it. Not tipping doesn't hurt the practice--it only hurts the people who work hard and depend on it.

 

So after I or others have attempted to simply explain our understanding of or the rationale behind tipping (but apparently not to yours or others' satisfaction), I'm not clear where we are going with the continued dialogue. Again you are fully entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to superimpose this rationalization on someone else's custom. It simply doesn't matter whether it makes some or any sense to you and the only appropriate response is to follow the local customs. The fact that some Americans tip in Australia is only proof that those folks were not informed, and failed to adapt their personal behaviors appropriately to your local customs. And this is regrettable and unfortunate. So you are correct that they should not have tipped. I hope however you are not using an example of a lack of knowledge and insensitivity to justify your not tipping in a country or place where tipping is customary and expected. That's all I'm saying. When in Rome...

Okay, so this isnt anger its just a bit of harmless yelling.

 

I could go back and find posts by other uses that further demonstrate my point but it is pointless! Tipping is clearly the holy grail of american culture and any questions show the question asker is clearly a fiscal miser of illegitimate parentage. :rollseyes:

There was honestly not even a hint of anger from my side and my CAPS were only for emphasis since I still don't think you understood my points. Again, I am merely saying that you simply are not entitled to an explanation that satisfies you before you are expected to comply with any accepted custom. That's all.

 

When a woman visits Saudi Arabia, she is expected to cover her head and face with a hijab. When an observant Jewish friend comes for dinner, I don't serve pork or dairy. Indians consider cows sacred. When someone has a visit with the Queen, it is considered inappropriate to touch or hug her. In some countries, it is inappropriate to shake hands. It's considered rude to gift a clock or hankerchief in China. I can go on and on. I frankly don't understand the rationale or reasoning behind much of this, nor do "explanations" often make sense to me personally. But the key is: I respect the custom unquestionably.

 

Tipping is no different, but you seem to want to draw a distinction and continue to debate something that simply has no resolution or satisfactory answer (to you). You diminishing it by implying that it is based on some sort of irrational business policy and/or a side effect of American arrogance.

 

I asked several questions earlier that you never answered. What it is it that you hope to resolve? Do you honestly hope that you can change said tipping culture by venting here on CruiseCritic? Are you saying that you don't or won't respect local customs? Do you consider tipping different from any other international custom? If so, why? :rolleyes:

Those pesky Americans. :p

I'm having a good laugh everyday at this guy's attitude about tipping! I hardly know any fellow Americans (and I only know a couple thousand! :)) who are either angry or upset about tipping! Yet this guy thinks we're being defensive or that we're angry when we attempt to explain to him a custom that he simply can never grasp or accept, and only wishes to continue to argue over! I guess I am sure pesky. ;) I think there is something in the water in the other hemisphere! LOL

Why can a system of fair wages never be.

 

Yes I don't like being "forced" to tip. Yes I am upset that businesses exploit the system. How is it discretionary when I read Americans saying things like

 

If you remove tips lock up your toothbrush

If you don't tip at the docks say goodbye to your bags

 

And the like. That's not discretionary it's extortion.

I can't comment on whether or not bad things could happen to one's bags because you don't tip a porter but your fears are largely unfounded since 99% of the time, tips are offered only after the delivery of a service! So how in the world is tipping being "forced" on you, or "extortion"? 99% of the service providers do their jobs with nothing but the mere hope that you will be so kind to acknowledge their good work and tip them.

 

The only possible negative affect for you might be that your compatriots may have established a tipping pattern and a stereotype of a particular nationality of either not tipping or not tipping well may arise.

 

Why, when I question the rhetoric am I attacked for trying to understand something that finally someone has the balls to admit is irrational.

What I am saying is that, even if I concede to your reasoned points, nothing will change with this system--rational or irrational. I personally am not getting upset or angry because I know nothing I type will change your mind or vice versa, however some people here do sense an intense anger from you and I think your caustic tone is only inflaming things without helping us get to any real solution. Just my 2 cents.

 

 

How am I supposed to understand something and do the right thing when it is irrational?

Here is the problem: You do NOT need to understand a custom to follow the custom. It doesn't and shouldn't need to be rational to YOU for you to do the "right thing". Whether you think it's a greedy business-based or crazy cultural-based custom, you simply are expected do it. But you don't have to if you don't respect it. Most of us don't really care what you choose to do because it's your right to choose. But PLEASE don't post comments on this board about how dumb something is and imply that those that have the custom OWE YOU a rational explanation. before you can comply with said custom. IOW, you are not owed an explanation nor entitled to understand it!

 

The custom of tipping will likely never make any sense to you, but I genuinely hope the perspective I offer above does. :rolleyes:

Ah. Non-American I see.

 

And, no, silliness is saying that you should tip your doctor.

 

 

 

 

Tipping in not just an American custom. People keep assuming this. Matter of fact, there is only one country where is actually against the law to tip: China.

 

There are countries that don't really encourage tipping, but accept them anyway: Germany, France (except for drinks), and India. And in those cases, the "tip" is usually the customer "rounding up" the bill to an even number.

 

And then there are places that do encourage tipping like the good ol' USA: Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, the UK (though not usually in the pubs), and Thailand to name a few.

 

So we Americans are not alone in this.

 

Here's an article to see a picture that better illustrates tipping around the world: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/19/tipping-around-the-world_n_3779911.html

I know all that, but my question is why do we waste time in debating the merits or flaws of a custom when the only thing that MATTERS is that it is a custom. So even if I grant all the non-tippers their points that tipping is stupid, irrational, non-sensical, ridiculous, arbitrary and based on business greed--it's still customary and expected. Whether you are American, Chinese, Aussie or whoever, you are still expected to tip 15%-18% of the food or beverage total! The criticisms are all directed at an admitted-flawed system, but the tips are between us (as customers) and service workers who are merely innocent players in a system in which they have no control or influence.

 

So again, my question to my non-tipping friends remains: what point is there in debating the flaws or venting your frustrations at your fellow cruisers who did not invent a system in which much of the world partakes? Are you blaming us somehow for this? I for one am not here to defend it--merely saying to accept and move on! Kevin, my only suggestion to you is: don't even try to explain, justify or rationalize the system because it only starts the debate all over again! LOL

Nice to see people haven't started to get silly with comments in who deserves a tip or who doesn't......

 

:rolleyes:

The entire discussion is unresolvable because some people want to rationalize or make sense of what is an inherently flawed and irrational custom.

 

Americans assume and accept that the select service and other industry workers are underpaid, and so we tip to both appreciate extra or superior effort, and to provide what non-tippers call some amount of "wage leveller".

 

People from non-tipping countries persist in trying to dissect, critique, debate and understand something that, ultimately perhaps, they can never understand. ;)

 

I personally agree that it makes sense to pay people a better base salary or wage, and reduce or eliminate the concept of tipping. But in the end, this "system" is merely a fantasy -- an alternative reality that can never be. And so I always conclude with: that's just the way it is whether you like it or understand it. :D

 

So a question for my Aussie and other friends from traditionally non-tipping countries: What is it that you want from this dialogue? Since tipping is discretionary so you don't have to tip the service providers, are you simply torn by your inherent desire to NOT tip? Are you upset by the implied pressure of tipping? Or do you honestly feel that many service people are not worthy of a tip? Or are you simply upset that businesses are paying too low a wage and exploiting this "custom"? It may be customary, but ultimately tipping is usually discretionary so there is generally nothing forcing you to do it. Even the automatic gratuities on most cruise lines can be removed.

I'm not sure if I'm doing this right as only my second time to ask a question. I am flying from the UK to Baltimore to go on the Granduer in September. My question is. Is any one able to tell me how to get from the cruise terminal to a hotel or the airport if there are no taxis at the cruise terminal. Have looked for airport shuttles but they only give information from the airport to the terminal. being in the UK I don not have access to all websites available in the USA. Also I am getting a taxi from my hotel to the terminal, will it drop me off at the terminal or on the outside, so to speak???

Any help great appreciated.

Taxis should be plentiful at the terminal when you dock, and the taxi taking you from your hotel to the port will drop you off directly at the terminal.

I don't agree with this. I live closer to Baltimore but if you stay in this area (Hanover, Elkridge or even further south in Laurel) you will only be 45 minutes away from downtown DC. Silver Spring and Bethesda hotels are much more expensive. Greenbelt hotels can be very sketchy.

 

It can be real hassle to drive and find parking in DC, other than very expensive parking garages. I'd recommend staying in the areas I suggested above as a home base and driving to the Greenbelt Metro station and taking the train into DC. Then you'd avoid traffic but not have to worry about changing hotels the night before your cruise. Greenbelt Metro is only 20 minutes from Elkridge/Hanover and 10-15 minutes from Laurel.

 

Laurel can also be a bit sketchy but if you stick to hotels closer to the Laurel Regional Hospital, they are nicer and newer. I'm not sure if they do park and cruises packages down there.

 

Hanover is home to Arundel Mills Mall, which houses a sprawling outlet mall, mega movie theatre, Medieval Times, Walmart and even a casino. Many hotels to choose from with park and cruise packages. It's only 15-20 minutes to the port from this area. Elkridge is the least expensive and five minutes from Hanover. It's mostly business parks and residential homes.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

I agree with trixiegal. Take the metro into dc. I also live in the area.

 

I would suggest Hanover over the other areas just because of is more central. Easy access to highways to Baltimore and dc metro. But the mall, movie theatre, etc is good in case the weather stinks and you don't feel like going far. Lots of food options in the area too.

As I too recommend using Metro, the only disagreement then is where to base a hotel for a DC visit. And IMHO, the appropriate place to stay to visit DC depends greatly on just how many days pre-cruise you wish to visit DC. The more DC days, the closer you should stay to DC. If one stays in Hanover or Laurel, you will either be driving 35-45 minutes to drive (assumes NO traffic!) and park downtown, OR you will have to drive 20-25 min to Greenbelt Metro (again, NO traffic) and then an additional 30-45 minute train ride into downtown DC. And all this is EACH WAY. Since the poster has a car, the longer she plans to visit DC, the more beneficial it will be to be closer to DC. My suggestion of staying near a Metro station saves the 30-50 minute daily round-trip from a Baltimore-area hotel to/from the Metro. And again, none of the above even factors in the tremendous risk and hassles of area traffic on either I-95 or the BW Parkway should the visitor be driving anytime near the rush hours! I'm a Washington DC native and commuter, and it seems like you two are Baltimore or Baltimore-area residents so you probably have not had to routinely deal with the drives south to/from and into DC on a regular basis. If you did, you would definitely not want to be commuting or visiting DC regularly from Hanover as a base of operations for full-time DC touring! :)

My question to the OP is: Do you want the cruise to be more cultural and educational or more vacation and relaxation? Based solely on itinerary, Allure is far more of the former and the Jade is far more of the latter. There is simply no comparison between being able to visit Barcelona (La Rambla, Gothic Quarter, La Sagrada Familia, Gaudi sights, etc.), La Spezia (Cinque Terre), Rome (Pantheon, Vatican, Forum, Colisseum, etc.), Naples (Pompeii, Amalfi coast) versus Venice and some Greek Isles. The former includes visits to two or three of the great cities of Europe, and latter is essentially Venice along with mostly Greek sun and fun R&R. No offense to the Greek Isles, but there isn't that much culture in Corfu, Santorini and Mykonos. And Katakolon is a pretty short day with a visit to the original Olympic site.

 

So if I am making my first trip to Europe with your four kids, and have only these two itineraries to choose from, it'd be an absolute slam-dunk easy decision: Allure OTS. And the bonus is that you'd be aboard RCI's ship with the most kid-friendly features and activities! This allows you the OPTION of leaving one or more of the kids onboard to relax or have fun while the rest of you go ashore on any given port day. This is handy if someone's (especially the younger kids) not feeling well, not interested, too tired, etc. etc.

Interesting article in today's New York Times on a recent trend in tipping:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/business/dollar3-tip-on-a-dollar4-cup-of-coffee-gratuities-grow-automatically.html?_r=0

As a general rule, many airport (or others near the port) hotels with either provide free parking for some period if you stay one night, OR they will charge a low flat daily rate for parking. In either case, the hotel "park-and-cruise" services let you use their free hotel shuttle. The hotel makes some money on their generally underutilized parking lot and shuttle bus, and the cruise customer saves a ton of money. BTW, I use the same types of "park-and-fly" services whenever I fly and need long-term airport parking.

Clearly, it has changed, as some were saying that the only model possible was that gratuities would be charged as extra, and that all-inclusive pricing would result in higher prices and/or the end of cruising as we know it!

When it comes to Celebrity (and most cruise lines) and gratuities, the term "all-inclusive" only means that, certain or even most passengers receive complementary gratuities. The underlying system of a base stateroom fares and gratuities/tipping remains unchanged. "All-inclusive" for Celebrity is not really all-inclusive. For example, if you order room service, it is still appropriate for one to tip the delivery because they are not included in the free gratuities.

It looks like the horse made a miraculous recovery!

 

 

 

My view is based on personal experience (including research prior to visiting the U.S.) and the views posted on these forums.

 

I will state my understanding of the tipping situation with regards to the U.S. and by extension to the cruise sector (as "most major cruise lines run their business based on U.S. customs and practices"), along with an insight to the situation as I see/experience it in the UK. Then perhaps we can then determine whether it is distorted or not.

 

In the U.S. it is legal (in many states) to allow employers to minimise a member of staff's base wage with the expectation that their wage will be made up to that state's minimum wage by tips. "Federal law permits employers to include tips towards satisfying the difference between employees' hourly wage and minimum wage" [source: Wikipedia]

 

In the UK, where I reside, tipping is (perhaps contrary to most other people's beliefs) quite widespread throughout many 'service industries' - Hairdressers/Barbers, Bars, Restaurants, Taxis, Home Delivery, Postmen, Refuse Collectors (both usually anually) and many others, as a 'reward' for good to excellent service.

 

Now to your points:

 

 

 

This does interest me. Are you now saying that tips, by default, are not expected/customary? That it is exactly the same as "UK-style" tipping? That "U.S.-style" tipping doesn't actually exist? Is there in fact no 'style' whatsoever - it is just tipping?

 

This appears to go against a lot of people's feelings I've encountered on this board - i.e. If people DON'T tip (for whatever reason) they are 'stiffing the staff'...The whole good to excellent argument being a non-starter.

 

Again back to point 1. Also I never on[c]e said that all 'wait staff' in America get 15% (or 18%, 20%, et al.) - but that is the idea, isn't it? I stated that tips are used as a wage leveller - which, according to Wikipedia and other sources, is a fact.

 

I merely quoted an extract from an article you were using as evidence for your assertion that Australia is moving towards U.S.-style (or UK-style?) tipping. So how much of the article is pure fantasy or fiction?

Nearly everything you say is true and I find little to disagree about so I'm not even sure what we are disagreeing on at this point! ;)

 

Yes, much of our gratuity system is based on a lower-than-typical hourly wage with a variable, performance-based "tip" as the bonus. You call it a "wage leveller"--others see it as performance-based compensation just like sales and other types of work. Please remember that "wage leveller" assumes that there is such a thing as a fair or living wage. More "progressive" nations establish higher living wages and more social safety nets, and I don't think that anyone here on these boards will disagree with me when I say that the U.S. is far less progressive than many European nations or Australia on this count. This at least partially explains why we have the system that we do. Americans (and the cruise lines have followed) are quite okay with paying a below-living standard wage, and saying: "go work your butt off and earn a good tip" so you will have enough to live on. They prefer this to a higher flat rate because in that system, everyone, regardless of quality or performance, are compensated more equally. And BTW, this approach applies to many sales-related and other careers here--so it's not just service tipping.

 

So to answer one of your questions: yes, people in the service and other tip-involved industries here would expect a tip for good to excellent execution of their job function. It would be customary and expected. My point is that, quite often services are not rendered or are rendered poorly and thus tips are occasionally reduced or not given. Not sure if this answers your question, or meets your or others definition of "discretionary" but that was my point.

 

Also, I'm not clear on the distinction between what you call a "reward" for good service in the UK, versus our tips. Aren't they still customary and expected? I have found in the UK,that tipping is customary and expected. While you may indeed pay a higher wage, with the poor global economy and high cost of living, I'm not sure tipping isn't, or at least is becoming, a wage leveller for everyone, no?

 

But getting back to this thread, all I was trying to do was establish (I guess especially for Aussies and others who have no recent tradition with tipping) was that the baseline for discussing the value of moving from 15% to 18% gratuity must be to 1) understand (and I suppose accept) the US-style tipping practices simply because that is what the major cruise lines are doing and what the majority of their customers are rooted in, 2) that tipping for food and beverage is/was traditionally 15% of the food or beverage amount, and 3) that US-style tipping is actually now moving higher, i.e. to 18% or even as some posters point out, 20%, and so it is reasonable to think that some or many servers and bartenders might have a new, higher threshold of "customary and expected".

i guess if P&O doesn't charge much for gratuities, that should be a super plus for those that disagree with other cruise lines that charge more, to cruise only with them.

I agree. P&O has less than a 5% global market share, and they are and will likely remain, Carnival's specialty line catering primarily to non-North American, and I suppose non-tipping, customers. :)

US-style tipping? No, no, no.

 

Australians are obviously very clued up and pay their service staff a reasonable wage. And tips are seen as a reward for good to excellent service - rather than an expected wage leveller.

 

As per the article you quoted: "In the States it's often 20 per cent or higher, and if you leave lower than that they'll abuse you.” - Ouch!

I think you have this distorted view of tipping in the US. I don't think things are as different as you think. Here in the US, please consider:

 

1. Tips are still discretionary, but it is customary for good to excellent service to leave an additional 15%.

 

2. Tips are not really a "wage leveller" because if you are a poor or bad waiter, you will not make much in tips and you will struggle to make a living. You seem to think that every waiter in America gets 15% additional to their wage as a wage leveler. This doesn't necessarily happen. So the US-style tipping system should not really be looked as a "wage leveler" but more as an incentive or performance-based system. You do good work, you make more money. You do crappy work, you don't get the bonus and make minimum wage.

 

3. Tips are paid post meal so there is no absolutely no way for a wait person to "abuse you". You are long departed before any wait staff knows their tip. So this part of the article is pure fantasy or fiction.

 

So if Aussies are truly becoming increasingly accustomed to giving 10% extra on occasion for good to excellent service, this is indeed a trend toward US-style tipping. So like Americans or not, Australia seems to be falling right into line! :D

 

Guess I wonder how they will abuse you, since you tip at the end of the meal, maybe chase you down the street leaving their other customers to fend for themselves LOL!

 

p.s. might be a good idea to ask someone from the US about tipping, because if Nina Rousseau thinks you will be abused if you leave less than 20 percent, she doesn't know a hill of beans about US tipping and she must be trying to scare those non-tippers into tipping.

Well said. LOL

Actually, the number of international pax exceeded US pax a couple of years ago. Sorry! :rolleyes:

According to the CLIA (http://www.cruising.org/vacation/news/press_releases/2014/01/state-cruise-industry-2014-global-growth-passenger-numbers-and-product-o), in 2013, U.S. passengers are still over 51% of the global cruise passengers. UK comes in a very distant second at 8.1% and Aussies are less than 4%. And if you look at passenger forecasts (e.g. http://www.cruisemarketwatch.com/growth/), the North American passengers (including our Canadian friends) will only GROW as a percentage of overall passengers because our economies are doing relatively better than most other major economies, especially Europe.

 

But regardless of the specific percentages, the 800 lb gorilla in the room gets to dictate most rules, and it looks like the trend will be that it remains so. :)

 

Actually, as I alluded to in an earlier post, they _do_ change their arrangements based on the region, as do a number of cruise lines.

 

For example, "for Australian cruises", drink prices ARE adjusted for tips so that they are not added.

 

However, the disastrous consequences you purport will come about have not been evidenced. :rolleyes:

I was referring to general policies for gratuities and tips on most major cruise lines (i.e. not P&O for example). And the current share of the global cruise business for Australia is still approx 6% so I would hardly characterize that as thriving so it's very possible that you don't get enough Americans to sail aboard those ships.

 

There are always exceptions for regions and exceptions by cruise lines, but this thread is specifically for X's increase in the beverage gratuity, and my comments are based on the majority of the lines and their standard gratuity policies, the majority of tipping practices for most people while sailing the most popular itineraries.

OMG, what a load of twaddle. Ships cruise Australian waters year round where it is explicitly stated there are no tips as these are built in to the fare. The sky has not fallen and it seems the ships continue to make a profit.

 

Like so much other rhetoric that tries to argue reasons for tipping this too is false, and proven to be so.

 

Really, there are no gratuities on any Australia cruises? All sailings are no-gratuity? Really, I didn't know that! http://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=1591. And even for the lines that have the no-gratuity practices catering to the local crowd, I submit that this only hurts their ability to attract more international customers based on the limited deployments of these ships/itineraries.

 

And BTW, it looks like the trend in Australia is changing toward US-style tipping: http://www.goodfood.com.au/good-food/eat-out/tipping-the-australian-way-20130228-2f7vz.html. There are tons of similar articles so this doesn't appear to be an aberration.

 

My bet is that, within 15-25 years, Australia will have customary and expected 10% tipping as part of their culture. :)

I get that tipping is a US custom and because Celebrity is a US cruise line the US guidelines are to be followed. But over the decades why do US citizens keep deciding to raise the % they feel should be added for a service and everyone has to follow? How does this occur?

 

I remember 10% 12% 15% now 18% and many will tip 20%. But surely the service that is being recognised has not risen in line with this. So why has the tip? A previous poster stated they tip 15% for average service, 18% for very good service and 20% for excellent service. Why tip so much for average service? The server is being paid to deliver that. I always happily give a tip where excellent service has been given with a smile, as do most people.

 

There is another post reminding us that the US is "the richest and most affluent nation". I find this sad after reading that those in the service industry are expected to accept wages well below a living wage yet they live in that affluent nation. The only way to take home a decent wage is to earn tips and everyone is expected to understand this.

 

I prefer the idea of paying for a cruise that includes all the required tips. I know where I am and can budget accordingly, I can relax and enjoy cruising knowing I do not have to concern myself with how much and who to give it to.

 

There will never be agreement on tipping policy but until things change (maybe in the future?) do not let it spoil a wonderful holiday.

All good points, but I think your final sentence summarizing your thoughts says it with the right attitude. Due to cultural differences, people will likely never agree on tipping but until the policies change, just accept the ways things are and don't let it spoil your holiday! :)

I appreciate your attempt at "giving me the proper perpesctive".

 

Your assumption that I am confusing 'convention' with my own views is incorrect. I have not once in my very few posts denied that the practise is "customary", as it undoubtably is. I believe it is almost universally entrenched within the cruising industry.

 

Nor am I trying to use my "own perspective to implement a different practice within another culture" - I assume you are talking about American culture here? (Don't want to touch that.)

 

But, apparently, I am not allowed to proffer my opinion on something that is customary? Wow! Who made you Queen?...don't expect a hug!

 

I do have a bit of a problem with your assertion of the whole "US Customs & Practises" onboard cruise ships - I may well be wrong and you have an advantage over me in that your knowledge of the the history of cruising is exemplary and prior to the US getting into the game, tipping was just a word for throwing uneaten silver served food overboard.

 

Of course you also reckon the US "invented" restaurants (And clothes!?! And don't get me started on "English")...

 

 

 

Whilst I am attempting to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek here, there is a serious point...Which I have already tried to make - but which others have more succinctly opined.

 

It's an outdated model - pay fair. [ :rolleyes: ? ]

I get your frustration but at the risk of beating the proverbial dead horse, my point again is that there is no point in rendering your opinion HERE on what you and others think of the concept of tipping in general. This thread is about the increase from 15% to 18% in standard beverage gratuities. So I was trying to nicely "reset" your baselines so that you understand how 15% is normal and customary before, and so we can all have a reasonable discussion on the merits of moving to 18%. However, you and others persist on bashing the senselessness of the entire CONCEPT--which is both irrelevant and unproductive. I am not saying your opinions on tipping are irrelevant--it's just that they are irrelevant and tangential to this thread. And no amount of tip-bashing or dreaming about a "pay fair" world is going to change anything. The simple (and perhaps insulting to you) reality is that the majority of the industrialized world (or at least the majority of customers with disposable income to spend on cruises) utilizes this gratuity custom, the cruise lines have embraced it, and it's well, JUST THE WAY IT IS. So please don't shoot the messenger and hate me for saying the obvious--I didn't invent it nor have any say in implementing it. :rolleyes: